Counsel Pay Forum

[Bramwell]

At my V10, counsel comp ranges from $500k to $800k or so, with the average falling in the higher end of that range. Income partner comp ranges from the top of the counsel range up to $2M or so with the average in the $1-$1.5M range.

is that pre or post bonus and do counsel typically receive market bonus for senior associates or some other amount?

[Anonymous User]

Post-bonus. Counsel base is above associate base but not dramatically so. Bonuses drive the rest of the comp difference and obviously span a pretty wide range.

[Anonymous User]

What kind of hours do you work as counsel? Same as the rest of us? Is your pay linked to hours in any way?

Obviously this is going to depend on the individual, but just looking for a few of the counsels itt to chime in if possible.

[Anonymous User]

What kind of hours do you work as counsel? Same as the rest of us? Is your pay linked to hours in any way?

Obviously this is going to depend on the individual, but just looking for a few of the counsels itt to chime in if possible.

I knew one counsel (paid at the most senior associate level) who typically came in right around 2000-2200 every year. That counsel had a niche specialty/skill that the firm needed for some of our matters, but that didn't generate business on its own.

Then one year the firm started asking the counsel to bill more and take on additional responsibilities outside of their niche. Counsel had one year over 2400 and promptly went in house at a big tech company to avoid doing it again. Suffice to say that counsel is a precarious role, so even if you have a sweet gig at low hours the firm can always try to squeeze more profit out of you with little recourse on your end besides leaving.

[DoveBodyWash]

At my V10, counsel comp ranges from $500k to $800k or so, with the average falling in the higher end of that range. Income partner comp ranges from the top of the counsel range up to $2M or so with the average in the $1-$1.5M range.

Which V10 is this? Income partners making $1M+ is pretty impressive

[Anonymous User]

What kind of hours do you work as counsel? Same as the rest of us? Is your pay linked to hours in any way?

Obviously this is going to depend on the individual, but just looking for a few of the counsels itt to chime in if possible.

AmLaw100 counsel from earlier in the thread here, our billable requirement is 50 less than the associate requirement. Probably for business development reasons. Now, what happens after that is up to the individual and if they're gunning for partner...I know we have counsel billing 1800 and counsel billing 2800 depending on the practice group and niche.

[Anonymous User]

At my V10, counsel comp ranges from $500k to $800k or so, with the average falling in the higher end of that range. Income partner comp ranges from the top of the counsel range up to $2M or so with the average in the $1-$1.5M range.

Which V10 is this? Income partners making $1M+ is pretty impressive

I know LW income partner comp fits this (though that’s not traditional non-equity partner comp because income partners there get some equity interest). May also fit Skadden and STB, but not positive there.

[Anonymous User]

At my V10, counsel comp ranges from $500k to $800k or so, with the average falling in the higher end of that range. Income partner comp ranges from the top of the counsel range up to $2M or so with the average in the $1-$1.5M range.

Which V10 is this? Income partners making $1M+ is pretty impressive

I know LW income partner comp fits this (though that’s not traditional non-equity partner comp because income partners there get some equity interest). May also fit Skadden and STB, but not positive there.

I thought Skadden and STB only have equity partners.

[clone22]

Suffice to say that counsel is a precarious role, so even if you have a sweet gig at low hours the firm can always try to squeeze more profit out of you with little recourse on your end besides leaving.

Well, I mean, can't the same be said for literally any position unless you have an employment contract that gives you the right to resign with "Good Reason" if the employer decides to shovel more work onto your plate?

[Anonymous User]

Suffice to say that counsel is a precarious role, so even if you have a sweet gig at low hours the firm can always try to squeeze more profit out of you with little recourse on your end besides leaving.

Well, I mean, can't the same be said for literally any position unless you have an employment contract that gives you the right to resign with "Good Reason" if the employer decides to shovel more work onto your plate?

Think the idea is that equity partners have some protections against being de-equitized and those protections don't exist for counsel, just like they don't exist for associates. Being a career counsel means eventually reaching the point where your peers in age/experience have more job security than you.

And no I am not saying equity partners are 100% safe - I know they get nudged out too, but it's still safer than being counsel.

[Anonymous User]

Suffice to say that counsel is a precarious role, so even if you have a sweet gig at low hours the firm can always try to squeeze more profit out of you with little recourse on your end besides leaving.

Well, I mean, can't the same be said for literally any position unless you have an employment contract that gives you the right to resign with "Good Reason" if the employer decides to shovel more work onto your plate?

Think the idea is that equity partners have some protections against being de-equitized and those protections don't exist for counsel, just like they don't exist for associates. Being a career counsel means eventually reaching the point where your peers in age/experience have more job security than you.

And no I am not saying equity partners are 100% safe - I know they get nudged out too, but it's still safer than being counsel.

I would imagine that counsel is still more secure than associate, since it's formally off the up or out path. Depends on the firm I guess. Most counsels did not have the choice of being partner, it's like the pointless chatter of biglaw v IB/coding. So I wouldn't agree that partners are the peers of counsels.

[Anonymous User]

At my V10, counsel comp ranges from $500k to $800k or so, with the average falling in the higher end of that range. Income partner comp ranges from the top of the counsel range up to $2M or so with the average in the $1-$1.5M range.

Which V10 is this? Income partners making $1M+ is pretty impressive

I know LW income partner comp fits this (though that’s not traditional non-equity partner comp because income partners there get some equity interest). May also fit Skadden and STB, but not positive there.

I thought Skadden and STB only have equity partners.

Edit: accidental double post

[Anonymous User]

At my V10, counsel comp ranges from $500k to $800k or so, with the average falling in the higher end of that range. Income partner comp ranges from the top of the counsel range up to $2M or so with the average in the $1-$1.5M range.

Which V10 is this? Income partners making $1M+ is pretty impressive

I know LW income partner comp fits this (though that’s not traditional non-equity partner comp because income partners there get some equity interest). May also fit Skadden and STB, but not positive there.

I thought Skadden and STB only have equity partners.

That’s incorrect

[Anonymous User]

At my V10, counsel comp ranges from $500k to $800k or so, with the average falling in the higher end of that range. Income partner comp ranges from the top of the counsel range up to $2M or so with the average in the $1-$1.5M range.

Which V10 is this? Income partners making $1M+ is pretty impressive

I know LW income partner comp fits this (though that’s not traditional non-equity partner comp because income partners there get some equity interest). May also fit Skadden and STB, but not positive there.

I thought Skadden and STB only have equity partners.

No idea as to STB, but I can confirm with certainty that you are correct that Skadden only has equity partners.

[Anonymous User]

Suffice to say that counsel is a precarious role, so even if you have a sweet gig at low hours the firm can always try to squeeze more profit out of you with little recourse on your end besides leaving.

Well, I mean, can't the same be said for literally any position unless you have an employment contract that gives you the right to resign with "Good Reason" if the employer decides to shovel more work onto your plate?

Think the idea is that equity partners have some protections against being de-equitized and those protections don't exist for counsel, just like they don't exist for associates. Being a career counsel means eventually reaching the point where your peers in age/experience have more job security than you.

And no I am not saying equity partners are 100% safe - I know they get nudged out too, but it's still safer than being counsel.

I would imagine that counsel is still more secure than associate, since it's formally off the up or out path. Depends on the firm I guess. Most counsels did not have the choice of being partner, it's like the pointless chatter of biglaw v IB/coding. So I wouldn't agree that partners are the peers of counsels.

No re: comparison with associates, an associate hitting their hours and doing generally good work can expect to stick around for maybe a decade or so until being forced out. A counsel's job security is more precarious at any given time.

[randomthrowaway]

Suffice to say that counsel is a precarious role, so even if you have a sweet gig at low hours the firm can always try to squeeze more profit out of you with little recourse on your end besides leaving.

Well, I mean, can't the same be said for literally any position unless you have an employment contract that gives you the right to resign with "Good Reason" if the employer decides to shovel more work onto your plate?

Think the idea is that equity partners have some protections against being de-equitized and those protections don't exist for counsel, just like they don't exist for associates. Being a career counsel means eventually reaching the point where your peers in age/experience have more job security than you.

And no I am not saying equity partners are 100% safe - I know they get nudged out too, but it's still safer than being counsel.

I would imagine that counsel is still more secure than associate, since it's formally off the up or out path. Depends on the firm I guess. Most counsels did not have the choice of being partner, it's like the pointless chatter of biglaw v IB/coding. So I wouldn't agree that partners are the peers of counsels.

No re: comparison with associates, an associate hitting their hours and doing generally good work can expect to stick around for maybe a decade or so until being forced out. A counsel's job security is more precarious at any given time.

Depends on the practice group. If you're in a niche group like tax or exec comp, counsel has virtually limitless job security. It's difficult to replace those folks.

[Anonymous User]

I have an offer to join a firm as "counsel" with base salary of $375K as a class of 2013 with a $190K signing bonus. Pretty sure we need to go back to the negotiating table now over base pay (because this counsel title would put me behind the Cravath base pay for the class junior to me)

[Anonymous User]

I have an offer to join a firm as "counsel" with base salary of $375K as a class of 2013 with a $190K signing bonus. Pretty sure we need to go back to the negotiating table now over base pay (because this counsel title would put me behind the Cravath base pay for the class junior to me)

Has that firm matched Milbank/DPW/CSM? To be fair, not all have gone to Milbank scale, a few more have gone to DPW, and only a couple firms matched CSM. Is it really a negotiation if you're just clarifying that they'll match market for the most senior class year? Pre-Milbank c/o 2014 was at $365k, so it would make sense that some firms were paying 2013 $10k more.

[Anonymous User]

I have an offer to join a firm as "counsel" with base salary of $375K as a class of 2013 with a $190K signing bonus. Pretty sure we need to go back to the negotiating table now over base pay (because this counsel title would put me behind the Cravath base pay for the class junior to me)

Has that firm matched Milbank/DPW/CSM? To be fair, not all have gone to Milbank scale, a few more have gone to DPW, and only a couple firms matched CSM. Is it really a negotiation if you're just clarifying that they'll match market for the most senior class year? Pre-Milbank c/o 2014 was at $365k, so it would make sense that some firms were paying 2013 $10k more.

Firm in question matched DPW already. Not sure about Cravath, but they will.

[Anonymous User]

I have an offer to join a firm as "counsel" with base salary of $375K as a class of 2013 with a $190K signing bonus. Pretty sure we need to go back to the negotiating table now over base pay (because this counsel title would put me behind the Cravath base pay for the class junior to me)

Has that firm matched Milbank/DPW/CSM? To be fair, not all have gone to Milbank scale, a few more have gone to DPW, and only a couple firms matched CSM. Is it really a negotiation if you're just clarifying that they'll match market for the most senior class year? Pre-Milbank c/o 2014 was at $365k, so it would make sense that some firms were paying 2013 $10k more.

Firm in question matched DPW already. Not sure about Cravath, but they will.

Do you mind sharing which practice group and whether your billable hours target is the same as associates? Did they tell you what your bonus would be and whether you have any business development or other types of expectations?

[Anonymous User]

I have an offer to join a firm as "counsel" with base salary of $375K as a class of 2013 with a $190K signing bonus. Pretty sure we need to go back to the negotiating table now over base pay (because this counsel title would put me behind the Cravath base pay for the class junior to me)

Has that firm matched Milbank/DPW/CSM? To be fair, not all have gone to Milbank scale, a few more have gone to DPW, and only a couple firms matched CSM. Is it really a negotiation if you're just clarifying that they'll match market for the most senior class year? Pre-Milbank c/o 2014 was at $365k, so it would make sense that some firms were paying 2013 $10k more.

Firm in question matched DPW already. Not sure about Cravath, but they will.

Do you mind sharing which practice group and whether your billable hours target is the same as associates? Did they tell you what your bonus would be and whether you have any business development or other types of expectations?

leveraged finance/high-yield capital markets; no billable hours minimum (unofficially there's a 1900 target, but folks have been well over that for last couple years); no specific commitment on bonus, but given guidance to expect it to be in the $200K range; expected to participate in biz dev for existing clients, but not bring new clients in;

[Anonymous User]

I have an offer to join a firm as "counsel" with base salary of $375K as a class of 2013 with a $190K signing bonus. Pretty sure we need to go back to the negotiating table now over base pay (because this counsel title would put me behind the Cravath base pay for the class junior to me)

Has that firm matched Milbank/DPW/CSM? To be fair, not all have gone to Milbank scale, a few more have gone to DPW, and only a couple firms matched CSM. Is it really a negotiation if you're just clarifying that they'll match market for the most senior class year? Pre-Milbank c/o 2014 was at $365k, so it would make sense that some firms were paying 2013 $10k more.

Firm in question matched DPW already. Not sure about Cravath, but they will.

Do you mind sharing which practice group and whether your billable hours target is the same as associates? Did they tell you what your bonus would be and whether you have any business development or other types of expectations?

leveraged finance/high-yield capital markets; no billable hours minimum (unofficially there's a 1900 target, but folks have been well over that for last couple years); no specific commitment on bonus, but given guidance to expect it to be in the $200K range; expected to participate in biz dev for existing clients, but not bring new clients in;

That sounds like a great setup. Congrats! Still in partnership track? Any typical time length one stays as a counsel?

[Anonymous User]

Yes, effectively 1.5 years look to promotion included in the offer letter.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, effectively 1.5 years look to promotion included in the offer letter.

Thx for answering all these. One more question if you don’t mind, are you an associate or counsel at your current Firm? Or did you negotiate the title/promotion when lateraling? Thanks again.

[Anonymous User]

Already had the title.