Which V10 firm has the most insecure people? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Lol at all of us. I’m corporate but have worked on a handful of litigations closely with litigators. I respect what they do immensely, but it’s just another leg of the law firm stool not some higher craft. The best lawyers I know would succeed at corporate law or litigation. Just like litigators think transactional folks merely push paper, I’m blown away by the ridiculous formalities and amounts of paper required in a litigation. But I also see the preparation they put into depos and arguments and the quality briefs they prepare. Not sure many litigators care to see how much thought goes into everything we do to try to avoid/prevent litigation while being commercial and getting clients ideal outcomes. But mostly, I can’t believe we’re mudslinging about what’s more prestigious or more noble work. All that’s for people trying to justify their career/lifestyle choice and fill the void of insecurity.

Also, people over glamorize the "real work" on the business side. We're all of us drones. And that's OK. Work doesn't have to be fun.

[jotarokujo]

Imagine going to law school to be a "real lawyer" and work harder to get a job only to realize that it's an inferior career with weaker exits than corporate.

I mean, yes, if you're a mediocre law school student, corp is the best way to optimize exit options. If you're in that category, you shouldn't go into lit. But if you're a baller law student, you can get a COA clerkship and then go to a boutique that makes more than half their associates partner. Or you can become an AUSA and prosecute white collar criminals instead of preparing their sig pages.

Again, this comes back to the original point: Why do people who choose to go into the least competitive field within biglaw care so much about preffftige? This is less of a criticism of corp as a career path than of the weird juxtaposition between its lack of competitiveness and its insufferable obsession with Vault preffftige.

Why would I want to be a cop for half the money I'm making?

I mean all reasonable minds probably agree that law school is a pretty dumb choice if your only goal is to maximize income. So using that as the exclusive criterion for debating post-law school career paths seems... odd. And also, if that's your only criterion why go to NYC? Go Texas energy transactions and make $$$$$.

I don't know when this consensus happened but I wasn't consulted. It was a very good decision for me. There's already a dumb "learn to code" thread, take it to there if you're mad about law school.

Also apologies if I misrepresented but I'm not in NY or at a V10 for that matter. So I agree, no interest in NYC.

i mean it's an objective fact that biglaw is less lucrative than other common careers out of undergrad. maybe for your particular situation that wasn't true, but for most folks who went to top law schools, who usually did well at a good undergrad, they mostly could have done something more lucrative out of undergrad. i can see that not being the case if you went to an undergrad where it was really hard to get a good job even if you did well, but that's not most folks at top law schools

it's not just coding there's finance and a lot of other stuff

[Anonymous User]

Lol at all of us. I’m corporate but have worked on a handful of litigations closely with litigators. I respect what they do immensely, but it’s just another leg of the law firm stool not some higher craft. The best lawyers I know would succeed at corporate law or litigation. Just like litigators think transactional folks merely push paper, I’m blown away by the ridiculous formalities and amounts of paper required in a litigation. But I also see the preparation they put into depos and arguments and the quality briefs they prepare. Not sure many litigators care to see how much thought goes into everything we do to try to avoid/prevent litigation while being commercial and getting clients ideal outcomes. But mostly, I can’t believe we’re mudslinging about what’s more prestigious or more noble work. All that’s for people trying to justify their career/lifestyle choice and fill the void of insecurity.

Lit troll who started all this. I'm gonna sign off now, but I actually agree with all of this. I find the brass ring chasing in lit to be insufferable as well as it turns out, but that's a different discussion. I'll just say this. All lawyers are pretty insufferable, but I've personally found NYC corporate Vault-worshippers to be the worst of them all. The juxtaposition between the least selective path in biglaw and the unusual obsession with Vault is just bizarre. These people claim they're better than litigators because they'll make more money, but then turn around and scoff at associates at Kirkland Houston because they don't work for a "NYC-whiteshoe." None of it is consistent, and none of it makes sense.

[Anonymous User]

Imagine going to law school to be a "real lawyer" and work harder to get a job only to realize that it's an inferior career with weaker exits than corporate.

I mean, yes, if you're a mediocre law school student, corp is the best way to optimize exit options. If you're in that category, you shouldn't go into lit. But if you're a baller law student, you can get a COA clerkship and then go to a boutique that makes more than half their associates partner. Or you can become an AUSA and prosecute white collar criminals instead of preparing their sig pages.

Again, this comes back to the original point: Why do people who choose to go into the least competitive field within biglaw care so much about preffftige? This is less of a criticism of corp as a career path than of the weird juxtaposition between its lack of competitiveness and its insufferable obsession with Vault preffftige.

Why would I want to be a cop for half the money I'm making?

I mean all reasonable minds probably agree that law school is a pretty dumb choice if your only goal is to maximize income. So using that as the exclusive criterion for debating post-law school career paths seems... odd. And also, if that's your only criterion why go to NYC? Go Texas energy transactions and make $$$$$.

I don't know when this consensus happened but I wasn't consulted. It was a very good decision for me. There's already a dumb "learn to code" thread, take it to there if you're mad about law school.

Also apologies if I misrepresented but I'm not in NY or at a V10 for that matter. So I agree, no interest in NYC.

i mean it's an objective fact that biglaw is less lucrative than other common careers out of undergrad. maybe for your particular situation that wasn't true, but for most folks who went to top law schools, who usually did well at a good undergrad, they mostly could have done something more lucrative out of undergrad. i can see that not being the case if you went to an undergrad where it was really hard to get a good job even if you did well, but that's not most folks at top law schools

it's not just coding there's finance and a lot of other stuff

I suspect it's more people than you think. Law school admissions caring more about GPA than UG prestige means there's a lot of ppl from sucky UGs getting into law school who didn't otherwise have clear path to $$$.

[Anonymous User]

i mean it's an objective fact that biglaw is less lucrative than other common careers out of undergrad. maybe for your particular situation that wasn't true, but for most folks who went to top law schools, who usually did well at a good undergrad, they mostly could have done something more lucrative out of undergrad

What’s with the obsession with income/career optimization on this website? People make decisions when they’re a teenager that throw them on a path towards law school. Who cares about counterfactuals and living your life in reverse. Big law is a very high-paying outcome

[jotarokujo]

i mean it's an objective fact that biglaw is less lucrative than other common careers out of undergrad. maybe for your particular situation that wasn't true, but for most folks who went to top law schools, who usually did well at a good undergrad, they mostly could have done something more lucrative out of undergrad

What’s with the obsession with income/career optimization on this website? People make decisions when they’re a teenager that throw them on a path towards law school. Who cares about counterfactuals and living your life in reverse. Big law is a very high-paying outcome

i like to warn people about law school, there's a lot of lurkers on these forums, people thinking about law school. the wisdom is not "don't go to law school unless t14 because you won't get biglaw", it's "don't go to law school solely to maximize money even if biglaw is very likely from the school you're thinking about". i think a lot of folks miss that

[jotarokujo]

Imagine going to law school to be a "real lawyer" and work harder to get a job only to realize that it's an inferior career with weaker exits than corporate.

I mean, yes, if you're a mediocre law school student, corp is the best way to optimize exit options. If you're in that category, you shouldn't go into lit. But if you're a baller law student, you can get a COA clerkship and then go to a boutique that makes more than half their associates partner. Or you can become an AUSA and prosecute white collar criminals instead of preparing their sig pages.

Again, this comes back to the original point: Why do people who choose to go into the least competitive field within biglaw care so much about preffftige? This is less of a criticism of corp as a career path than of the weird juxtaposition between its lack of competitiveness and its insufferable obsession with Vault preffftige.

Why would I want to be a cop for half the money I'm making?

I mean all reasonable minds probably agree that law school is a pretty dumb choice if your only goal is to maximize income. So using that as the exclusive criterion for debating post-law school career paths seems... odd. And also, if that's your only criterion why go to NYC? Go Texas energy transactions and make $$$$$.

I don't know when this consensus happened but I wasn't consulted. It was a very good decision for me. There's already a dumb "learn to code" thread, take it to there if you're mad about law school.

Also apologies if I misrepresented but I'm not in NY or at a V10 for that matter. So I agree, no interest in NYC.

i mean it's an objective fact that biglaw is less lucrative than other common careers out of undergrad. maybe for your particular situation that wasn't true, but for most folks who went to top law schools, who usually did well at a good undergrad, they mostly could have done something more lucrative out of undergrad. i can see that not being the case if you went to an undergrad where it was really hard to get a good job even if you did well, but that's not most folks at top law schools

it's not just coding there's finance and a lot of other stuff

I suspect it's more people than you think. Law school admissions caring more about GPA than UG prestige means there's a lot of ppl from sucky UGs getting into law school who didn't otherwise have clear path to $$$.

i think it depends on the law school. at ysh, vast majority of folks went to "target" undergrad for consulting purposes, or at least for banking

[nixy]

i think it depends on the law school. at ysh, vast majority of folks went to "target" undergrad for consulting purposes, or at least for banking

YSH is a pretty small percentage of people who went to law school/end up in biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

i mean it's an objective fact that biglaw is less lucrative than other common careers out of undergrad. maybe for your particular situation that wasn't true, but for most folks who went to top law schools, who usually did well at a good undergrad, they mostly could have done something more lucrative out of undergrad

What’s with the obsession with income/career optimization on this website? People make decisions when they’re a teenager that throw them on a path towards law school. Who cares about counterfactuals and living your life in reverse. Big law is a very high-paying outcome

i like to warn people about law school, there's a lot of lurkers on these forums, people thinking about law school. the wisdom is not "don't go to law school unless t14 because you won't get biglaw", it's "don't go to law school solely to maximize money even if biglaw is very likely from the school you're thinking about". i think a lot of folks miss that

Nah

[jotarokujo]

i think it depends on the law school. at ysh, vast majority of folks went to "target" undergrad for consulting purposes, or at least for banking

YSH is a pretty small percentage of people who went to law school/end up in biglaw.

i guess i mean that the higher rank school, the more people who went to a high ranked undergrad largely speaking. getting banking or sales from a top 30 undergrad and a high gpa is pretty reliable. the best advice for people thinking about law school for biglaw really is to not go unless they have substantive interest in the law - money alone can't be the motivation

[Anonymous User]

I cannot imagine something I care about less.

Don't know about firms but pretty sure we found the most insecure associate right here

Lol no, it’s pretty much the only reasonable take, this is one of the dumbest discussions on this site.

lol, nope. Really don't get your contribution to this site, it's always just some milquetoast low-hanging-fruit that adds nothing to the conversation. At least the trolls provide some entertainment or interesting takes, or even sometimes food for thought. If the topic doesn't do that for you, is your life really so empty that you feel compelled to post shit like this in it anyway? The alternative is: you're the insecure person who feels the need to add your nothingburger opinion into the topic you claim is so dumb but in reality you're actually following along.

MOD NOTE: User Joachim2017 outed for anon abuse.

[jotarokujo]

Nah

i'll phrase it this way - money alone does not make sense as a motivation to go to biglaw. there has to be an element of substantive interest because there are more lucrative things to do.

[Anonymous User]

Nah

i'll phrase it this way - money alone does not make sense as a motivation to go to biglaw. there has to be an element of substantive interest because there are more lucrative things to do.

Nah

[Anonymous User]

Imagine going to law school to be a "real lawyer" and work harder to get a job only to realize that it's an inferior career with weaker exits than corporate.

Why is it an inferior career? Why would you think that people who want to do lit would find the corp exit options in any way desirable?

[tlsguy2020]

Corporate and litigation work are separate and distinct jobs with their own pros, cons, skill sets etc. Trying to compare the relative preftige or skill level is totally arbitrary. It’s like trying to compare doctors with architects — they’re different things?

[nixy]

I cannot imagine something I care about less.

Don't know about firms but pretty sure we found the most insecure associate right here

Lol no, it’s pretty much the only reasonable take, this is one of the dumbest discussions on this site.

lol, nope. Really don't get your contribution to this site, it's always just some milquetoast low-hanging-fruit that adds nothing to the conversation. At least the trolls provide some entertainment or interesting takes, or even sometimes food for thought. If the topic doesn't do that for you, is your life really so empty that you feel compelled to post shit like this in it anyway? The alternative is: you're the insecure person who feels the need to add your nothingburger opinion into the topic you claim is so dumb but in reality you're actually following along.

wow, you sound mad

[Wubbles]

The "you could have done banking" crowd really doesn't understand how many biglaw lawyers have underwater basketweaving degrees from Party School State University

[Anonymous User]

Nah

i'll phrase it this way - money alone does not make sense as a motivation to go to biglaw. there has to be an element of substantive interest because there are more lucrative things to do.

I don't agree even at YSH. Biglaw is about as lucrative as management consulting and success in the better paying finance jobs (HFs, IBD, PE) requires some basic level of quant acumen. If you're a humanities ugrad with a good work ethic, biglaw is one of the most lucrative paths available. I can think of thousands of reasons not to go law school, but money isn't one.

[Anonymous User]

wondering as an incoming associate

This is top-tier shitposting, love it.

That being said, we all know which V6 firm has the most insecure people.

Hmm, well insecure people famously spend their time trying to talk shit about others to make themselves feel better. People that are secure famously don’t feel the need to do so because they’re confident in their position.

So if I see a bunch of other firms constantly talking shit about one of their top competitors, what does that suggest about whose insecurity?

[Joachim2017]

Nah

i'll phrase it this way - money alone does not make sense as a motivation to go to biglaw. there has to be an element of substantive interest because there are more lucrative things to do.

I don't agree even at YSH. Biglaw is about as lucrative as management consulting and success in the better paying finance jobs (HFs, IBD, PE) requires some basic level of quant acumen. If you're a humanities ugrad with a good work ethic, biglaw is one of the most lucrative paths available. I can think of thousands of reasons not to go law school, but money isn't one.

I think the bolded is right, and am puzzled why people overlook it when they wonder why folks go into Big Law. Many if not the overwhelming majority of matriculating law students (me included!) had neither the interest nor the ability (or a combo) to get these other jobs that pay as much or more than Big Law.

[tlsguy2020]

i mean it's an objective fact that biglaw is less lucrative than other common careers out of undergrad. maybe for your particular situation that wasn't true, but for most folks who went to top law schools, who usually did well at a good undergrad, they mostly could have done something more lucrative out of undergrad

What’s with the obsession with income/career optimization on this website? People make decisions when they’re a teenager that throw them on a path towards law school. Who cares about counterfactuals and living your life in reverse. Big law is a very high-paying outcome

I don’t understand this either. You can pursue a lucrative path in something you find interesting independent of the salaries in other careers. Also, for what it’s worth, the people on this website overestimate how many people in their late 20s earn $300-$400k. Certainly some tech and finance types do. But what if you don’t want to be an engineer or a private equity associate?

[Anonymous User]

Imagine going to law school to be a "real lawyer" and work harder to get a job only to realize that it's an inferior career with weaker exits than corporate.

Why is it an inferior career? Why would you think that people who want to do lit would find the corp exit options in any way desirable?

It's harder to make partner, and partners make less money than corporate partners. And the exits.

I see tons of posts on here from biglaw lit trying desperately to find in house jobs so yes, I do think lit ppl often (if not always) find corp exits desirable.

Corporate and litigation work are separate and distinct jobs with their own pros, cons, skill sets etc. Trying to compare the relative preftige or skill level is totally arbitrary. It’s like trying to compare doctors with architects — they’re different things?

This is fair. I was shitposting in response to stuff like "corporate is just pencil pushing, lit do real lawyer stuff". No actual offense intended.

[jotarokujo]

i mean it's an objective fact that biglaw is less lucrative than other common careers out of undergrad. maybe for your particular situation that wasn't true, but for most folks who went to top law schools, who usually did well at a good undergrad, they mostly could have done something more lucrative out of undergrad

What’s with the obsession with income/career optimization on this website? People make decisions when they’re a teenager that throw them on a path towards law school. Who cares about counterfactuals and living your life in reverse. Big law is a very high-paying outcome

I don’t understand this either. You can pursue a lucrative path in something you find interesting independent of the salaries in other careers. Also, for what it’s worth, the people on this website overestimate how many people in their late 20s earn $300-$400k. Certainly some tech and finance types do. But what if you don’t want to be an engineer or a private equity associate?

fully agreed that if someone finds law interesting, there's a chance that it's worth. i think law school and biglaw are mistakes for someone who has no interest in law, which you sometimes see in biglaw and i kind of feel bad that that not only are they in a job they don't enjoy, but they aren't even doing the most lucrative thing for that lack of enjoyment

[Anonymous User]

Nah

i'll phrase it this way - money alone does not make sense as a motivation to go to biglaw. there has to be an element of substantive interest because there are more lucrative things to do.

I don't agree even at YSH. Biglaw is about as lucrative as management consulting and success in the better paying finance jobs (HFs, IBD, PE) requires some basic level of quant acumen. If you're a humanities ugrad with a good work ethic, biglaw is one of the most lucrative paths available. I can think of thousands of reasons not to go law school, but money isn't one.

I think the bolded is right, and am puzzled why people overlook it when they wonder why folks go into Big Law. Many if not the overwhelming majority of matriculating law students (me included!) had neither the interest nor the ability (or a combo) to get these other jobs that pay as much or more than Big Law.

Also, the grass is not always greener. The certainty of compensation (not sales commissions, not stock options subject to vesting, etc) and certainty of advancement (lockstep seniority and compensation, no culling of the bottom X%, uncommon layoffs, etc) are a massive benefit that needs to be considered instead of just raw dollar amounts.

Additionally, the actual substance of most of the other jobs people love to jerk off about on here is not inherently better or more interesting, just different. As someone who left a lucrative former career for BigLaw because I found it more interesting and was attracted to the easy path to seniority and guaranteed raises, those who fellate my prior career and ones like it strike me as dumbshit KJDs who only bitch about the law, and idolize everything else, because you’ve never done anything else.

[Anonymous User]

The "you could have done banking" crowd really doesn't understand how many biglaw lawyers have underwater basketweaving degrees from Party School State University

They also overestimate how easy it is to get banking jobs. Sure, if you get a good MBA, which requires a strong previous background, you have as good a chance as making biglaw. But otherwise I feel like this is survivorship bias. You see the kids who got good banking jobs, you don't see the ones who didn't.

Also banking isn't better WLB and isn't even necessarily better money.