Does Y @ sticker ever make sense over CCN full rides for maximizing ROI? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Pretty sure my previous firm fired a YLS junior because they were a bit insufferable about their degree and felt they were above menial junior tasks. This was not a firm that routinely fired juniors. It sounds like you're heading down this path of "YLS is amazing and everything will be handed to me on a silver platter" but if you can try to disabuse yourself of that notion, you'll be a lot better off after you graduate.

I was about to say we must be at the same firm because this happened to someone in my class, but then I realized you're talking about YLS grads... this must happen to them all the time .

[Anonymous User]

Given that you are going to transactional biglaw, and going to make a lot of money, seems like a no brainer to pick yale. You only live once, and should always strive to be the best. 30 years from the now the $200k in law school cost will be irrelevant, but the value of excellence never goes away.

[Anonymous User]

Given that you are going to transactional biglaw, and going to make a lot of money, seems like a no brainer to pick yale. You only live once, and should always strive to be the best. 30 years from the now the $200k in law school cost will be irrelevant, but the value of excellence never goes away.

Cannot tell if trolling.

[4LTsPointingNorth]

Given that you are going to transactional biglaw, and going to make a lot of money, seems like a no brainer to pick yale. You only live once, and should always strive to be the best. 30 years from the now the $200k in law school cost will be irrelevant, but the value of excellence never goes away.

I know you're trolling, but it's still worth pointing out that if OP invests $200k in a generic index fund as a junior associate rather than spending their first $200k of excess earnings repaying student loans, then that $200k investment would likely be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of at least $1.5m - $2.0m thirty years from now (assuming 7-8% annual market returns in line with historical averages).

Not a big deal if OP goes on to make partner at a V50 firm, but it's potentially a life changing amount of extra retirement money if OP ends up going in-house as a fourth or fifth year.

[nixy]

The answer to OP's question just depends on what OP means by ROI. Yale will, in the long run, open more doors for you than CCN. That's just a fact. Lawyers (especially very on-the-internet lawyers that post a lot on TLS) sometimes get myopic about the reality of the real world, networking, branding, and the value of optionality. And you've got time to pay off debt.

But, yes the conventional wisdom on this site and this thread is correct that IF you want to go into traditional Big Law, then take the money at CCN. Just know what down-the-road marginal possibilities you are giving up when you do that.

Could you identify specifically what doors Yale opens in the long run that CCN don’t? Or the marginal possibilities down the road? It seems to me that the difference in opportunities long term/down the road is way more contingent on what you actually do/accomplish after graduation than Yale vs CCN.

[Anonymous User]

Given that you are going to transactional biglaw, and going to make a lot of money, seems like a no brainer to pick yale. You only live once, and should always strive to be the best. 30 years from the now the $200k in law school cost will be irrelevant, but the value of excellence never goes away.

I know you're trolling, but it's still worth pointing out that if OP invests $200k in a generic index fund as a junior associate rather than spending their first $200k of excess earnings repaying student loans, then that $200k investment would likely be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of at least $1.5m - $2.0m thirty years from now (assuming 7-8% annual market returns in line with historical averages).

Not a big deal if OP goes on to make partner at a V50 firm, but it's potentially a life changing amount of extra retirement money if OP ends up going in-house as a fourth or fifth year.

If you are interested in money then a YLS degree is going to make it trivial for you to earn a lot of it over your career. And no, that extra $200k is not "life changing" for a corporate lawyer, even on the in house side.

You only get to go to law school once in your life, and if you had the natural intelligence and work ethic to literally get into the best law school in the country, it would be kind of nutty to blow that off for what ultimately isn't a lot of money given the field you are going into. It would be like sending your kids to public school instead of private school because you could have invested the tuition in an index fund.

How many biglaw partners sit there patting themselves on the back for having turned down Yale for a free ride at CCN?

[nixy]

How many biglaw partners sit there patting themselves on the back for having turned down Yale for a free ride at CCN?

CCN each have graduated way more biglaw partners than Yale, which ranks 16th, so I’d imagine at least some of them.

https://nationaljurist.com/prelaw/where ... law-school

(Obviously self-selection is a thing, but you asked specifically about biglaw partners.)

[ExpOriental]

Given that you are going to transactional biglaw, and going to make a lot of money, seems like a no brainer to pick yale. You only live once, and should always strive to be the best. 30 years from the now the $200k in law school cost will be irrelevant, but the value of excellence never goes away.

I know you're trolling, but it's still worth pointing out that if OP invests $200k in a generic index fund as a junior associate rather than spending their first $200k of excess earnings repaying student loans, then that $200k investment would likely be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of at least $1.5m - $2.0m thirty years from now (assuming 7-8% annual market returns in line with historical averages).

Not a big deal if OP goes on to make partner at a V50 firm, but it's potentially a life changing amount of extra retirement money if OP ends up going in-house as a fourth or fifth year.

If you are interested in money then a YLS degree is going to make it trivial for you to earn a lot of it over your career. And no, that extra $200k is not "life changing" for a corporate lawyer, even on the in house side.

You only get to go to law school once in your life, and if you had the natural intelligence and work ethic to literally get into the best law school in the country, it would be kind of nutty to blow that off for what ultimately isn't a lot of money given the field you are going into. It would be like sending your kids to public school instead of private school because you could have invested the tuition in an index fund.

How many biglaw partners sit there patting themselves on the back for having turned down Yale for a free ride at CCN?

This really is impressively dumb if it indeed is not a well executed troll

[Anonymous User]

[/quote]

This really is impressively dumb if it indeed is not a well executed troll
[/quote]

People on TLS hate their lives and massively overvalue $200k of tuition in your 20s. People who graduate from YLS and want to pursue money are going to have more than enough of it. The value of a YLS credential, and the experience of being with a group of people way smarter than you would get at CCN is easily worth $200k.

Life isn't some giant idiotic FIRE exercise, its about using your time to maximize your experiences, and Yale offers that to a much higher degree than CCN. How many YLS admits turn it down for CCN? 5%? 3%? The numbers don't lie.

[Anonymous User]

Given that you are going to transactional biglaw, and going to make a lot of money, seems like a no brainer to pick yale. You only live once, and should always strive to be the best. 30 years from the now the $200k in law school cost will be irrelevant, but the value of excellence never goes away.

I know you're trolling, but it's still worth pointing out that if OP invests $200k in a generic index fund as a junior associate rather than spending their first $200k of excess earnings repaying student loans, then that $200k investment would likely be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of at least $1.5m - $2.0m thirty years from now (assuming 7-8% annual market returns in line with historical averages).

Not a big deal if OP goes on to make partner at a V50 firm, but it's potentially a life changing amount of extra retirement money if OP ends up going in-house as a fourth or fifth year.

If you are interested in money then a YLS degree is going to make it trivial for you to earn a lot of it over your career. And no, that extra $200k is not "life changing" for a corporate lawyer, even on the in house side.

You only get to go to law school once in your life, and if you had the natural intelligence and work ethic to literally get into the best law school in the country, it would be kind of nutty to blow that off for what ultimately isn't a lot of money given the field you are going into. It would be like sending your kids to public school instead of private school because you could have invested the tuition in an index fund.

How many biglaw partners sit there patting themselves on the back for having turned down Yale for a free ride at CCN?

This really is impressively dumb if it indeed is not a well executed troll

Agreed, it would be super dumb to get into YLS and then, of all things, actually attend.

[Anonymous User]

I had a (much less prestigious) similar choice between a lower T14 full ride, and an ivy league T7 on partial scholly. Ok ok, it was Penn, and the other school was Northwestern. I took NU and it was absolutely the right choice, I'm in the same job I'd have gotten from Penn and with less debt. But sometimes I do have a tinge of regret. Not true regret because I know I made the right choice. I still know I was good enough to get into an Ivy (can't really articulate why that's important to me beyond the ranking etc, but it is). Just wanted to toss into the mix to say that I understand why someone would find this a tough decision and be tempted to go with the intangible preftige over the financially prudence choice.

[LBJ's Hair]

I, personally, cannot imagine looking back as a 30somethign Biglaw lawyer YLS grad and going "man I would definitely sell my YLS degree for $200K rn"

I, personally, can definitely imagine being a below-median 3L at CLS w/no shot at big market AUSA/clerkship/whatever wishing I coulda cruised to a V10 + D/Ct clerkship w/ (secretly) mediocre grades

here's the thing about the YLS degree, OP - if you're a YLS grad, for the rest of your life, certain people in this field will look at your credentials and assume you're smart, you're capable, you're "good"--whatever.

as someone practicing now, I would absolutely pay $200K for that privilege. (putting aside the network, grades failsafe, law school QoL, etc).

[Dahl]

It makes sense if someone else is paying/you’re independently wealthy. Otherwise no. Even if there was another Great Recession, you’re better off with no or little debt.

[Anonymous User]

I had a (much less prestigious) similar choice between a lower T14 full ride, and an ivy league T7 on partial scholly. Ok ok, it was Penn, and the other school was Northwestern. I took NU and it was absolutely the right choice, I'm in the same job I'd have gotten from Penn and with less debt. But sometimes I do have a tinge of regret. Not true regret because I know I made the right choice. I still know I was good enough to get into an Ivy (can't really articulate why that's important to me beyond the ranking etc, but it is). Just wanted to toss into the mix to say that I understand why someone would find this a tough decision and be tempted to go with the intangible preftige over the financially prudence choice.

NU v. Penn is not a material difference. YLS v. CCN is very significant for things like USSC clerkships or academia, making it a very different decision. No one is going to sit there years later regretting not going to Penn Law and missing out on opportunities, since Penn Law just doesn't open any special doors.

[Anonymous User]

I had a (much less prestigious) similar choice between a lower T14 full ride, and an ivy league T7 on partial scholly. Ok ok, it was Penn, and the other school was Northwestern. I took NU and it was absolutely the right choice, I'm in the same job I'd have gotten from Penn and with less debt. But sometimes I do have a tinge of regret. Not true regret because I know I made the right choice. I still know I was good enough to get into an Ivy (can't really articulate why that's important to me beyond the ranking etc, but it is). Just wanted to toss into the mix to say that I understand why someone would find this a tough decision and be tempted to go with the intangible preftige over the financially prudence choice.

NU v. Penn is not a material difference. YLS v. CCN is very significant for things like USSC clerkships or academia, making it a very different decision. No one is going to sit there years later regretting not going to Penn Law and missing out on opportunities, since Penn Law just doesn't open any special doors.

I don't regret missing out opportunity, but I do sometimes wish I had ivy league on my resume. Is that worth 100k...yes actually. Ah well.

I think OP just wants biglaw, so I don't see much of a difference in opportunity between YLS and CCN for that. Unless you want to clerk and/or unicorn outcome, where of course you'd need Yale.

[glitched]

Go to Yale so you can go into academia. It is a much much much better career path in almost every regard than biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

Go to Yale so you can go into academia. It is a much much much better career path in almost every regard than biglaw.

Counterpoint: You could not pay me enough to make me have a career around spewing out the bullshit that academics spew out. Hell.

[Anonymous User]

I, personally, cannot imagine looking back as a 30somethign Biglaw lawyer YLS grad and going "man I would definitely sell my YLS degree for $200K rn"

I, personally, can definitely imagine being a below-median 3L at CLS w/no shot at big market AUSA/clerkship/whatever wishing I coulda cruised to a V10 + D/Ct clerkship w/ (secretly) mediocre grades

here's the thing about the YLS degree, OP - if you're a YLS grad, for the rest of your life, certain people in this field will look at your credentials and assume you're smart, you're capable, you're "good"--whatever.

as someone practicing now, I would absolutely pay $200K for that privilege. (putting aside the network, grades failsafe, law school QoL, etc).

This is the right way to think about it. Went to YLS and had named scholarship at Columbia (not total full ride) and full rides to Penn and a few other T14s. It pained me to take on the debt at the time but I would do it again in a heartbeat. If you qualify for 0 financial aid then you are probably from a decently well off family and it may make sense to just take Yale at sticker. I got the max need-based aid and took out about 160k in loans.

I did not enjoy Yale because it's a weird place full of weird people, but it has been worth it in the post-grad world. Grades are not real so all of that stress does not exist during the job search. You will be the first to get a job and receive signing bonuses in the good times. You will be the last to lose your job in the bad times. I know people in this thread say differently, but my experience is that the decision-makers (be it partners, GCs, etc.) do respect the Yale degree over others. A partner once joked that I could expense the full cost of my diploma frame, a Chicago grad down the hall could expense half the cost of theirs, and another associate who didn't go to a T14 school couldn't expense any of theirs. It was a joke but actually pretty telling of how they think about things. Partners have put me in meetings with clients and told them that I went to Yale even when I barely spoke during the meeting. I'm not sure how often that happens for other schools, but I don't think it's the norm. And I'm pretty certain that when I inevitably want to go in-house, the YLS name will continue to open doors.

Not saying that graduating debt-free wouldn't also be amazing and have its own pros, but just wanted to throw out the perspective of someone who has actually kind of been in the position and chose YLS.

[Anonymous User]

A partner once joked that I could expense the full cost of my diploma frame, a Chicago grad down the hall could expense half the cost of theirs, and another associate who didn't go to a T14 school couldn't expense any of theirs. It was a joke but actually pretty telling of how they think about things.

Oof, that is ruthless. Very good example of the point you are making though.

Out of curiosity, what makes Yale so weird? I'm at Penn which fully lives up to its reputation as being a very collaborative and fun student body. The Wharton vs. Penn Law Fight Night is a good example of the kind of group Penn seems to attract. Yale just seems so...odd. From the outside YLS's idea of a fun extracurricular event seems like huddling up in the top floor of the library performing some occult rituals.

[Anonymous User]

I had a (much less prestigious) similar choice between a lower T14 full ride, and an ivy league T7 on partial scholly. Ok ok, it was Penn, and the other school was Northwestern. I took NU and it was absolutely the right choice, I'm in the same job I'd have gotten from Penn and with less debt. But sometimes I do have a tinge of regret. Not true regret because I know I made the right choice. I still know I was good enough to get into an Ivy (can't really articulate why that's important to me beyond the ranking etc, but it is). Just wanted to toss into the mix to say that I understand why someone would find this a tough decision and be tempted to go with the intangible preftige over the financially prudence choice.

There is no such thing as an "ivy" when it comes to law school. NW and Penn are objectively the same. Both in terms of admissions profiles and in terms of the caliber of students and outcomes. Slight difference being that elite firms that don't attend NW's OCI go to Penn's.

[Anonymous User]

I had a (much less prestigious) similar choice between a lower T14 full ride, and an ivy league T7 on partial scholly. Ok ok, it was Penn, and the other school was Northwestern. I took NU and it was absolutely the right choice, I'm in the same job I'd have gotten from Penn and with less debt. But sometimes I do have a tinge of regret. Not true regret because I know I made the right choice. I still know I was good enough to get into an Ivy (can't really articulate why that's important to me beyond the ranking etc, but it is). Just wanted to toss into the mix to say that I understand why someone would find this a tough decision and be tempted to go with the intangible preftige over the financially prudence choice.

There is no such thing as an "ivy" when it comes to law school. NW and Penn are objectively the same. Both in terms of admissions profiles and in terms of the caliber of students and outcomes. Slight difference being that elite firms that don't attend NW's OCI go to Penn's.

The University of Pennsylvania is a member of the Ivy League. As is Columbia, Harvard, Yale and... Cornell. And a bunch of other schools that don't have law schools. Plus, there's a bunch of schools considered "ivy" that are not actually Ivy (eg Stanford, Chicago).

You're right of course that there is no real significance to ivies in terms of LS quality. And that's why in fact I did take the money. But coming from pretty much nothing like I did, I still have a part of me that wants the meaningless validation of a diploma from an ivy league university.

[Anonymous User]

I had a (much less prestigious) similar choice between a lower T14 full ride, and an ivy league T7 on partial scholly. Ok ok, it was Penn, and the other school was Northwestern. I took NU and it was absolutely the right choice, I'm in the same job I'd have gotten from Penn and with less debt. But sometimes I do have a tinge of regret. Not true regret because I know I made the right choice. I still know I was good enough to get into an Ivy (can't really articulate why that's important to me beyond the ranking etc, but it is). Just wanted to toss into the mix to say that I understand why someone would find this a tough decision and be tempted to go with the intangible preftige over the financially prudence choice.

There is no such thing as an "ivy" when it comes to law school. NW and Penn are objectively the same. Both in terms of admissions profiles and in terms of the caliber of students and outcomes. Slight difference being that elite firms that don't attend NW's OCI go to Penn's.

The University of Pennsylvania is a member of the Ivy League. As is Columbia, Harvard, Yale and... Cornell. And a bunch of other schools that don't have law schools. Plus, there's a bunch of schools considered "ivy" that are not actually Ivy (eg Stanford, Chicago).

[The Lsat Airbender]

It makes sense if someone else is paying/you’re independently wealthy. Otherwise no. Even if there was another Great Recession, you’re better off with no or little debt.

underrated point. No, LRAP (or whatever schools call it) does not solve for this

[jsnow212]

I, personally, cannot imagine looking back as a 30somethign Biglaw lawyer YLS grad and going "man I would definitely sell my YLS degree for $200K rn"

I, personally, can definitely imagine being a below-median 3L at CLS w/no shot at big market AUSA/clerkship/whatever wishing I coulda cruised to a V10 + D/Ct clerkship w/ (secretly) mediocre grades

here's the thing about the YLS degree, OP - if you're a YLS grad, for the rest of your life, certain people in this field will look at your credentials and assume you're smart, you're capable, you're "good"--whatever.

as someone practicing now, I would absolutely pay $200K for that privilege. (putting aside the network, grades failsafe, law school QoL, etc).

This is the right way to think about it. Went to YLS and had named scholarship at Columbia (not total full ride) and full rides to Penn and a few other T14s. It pained me to take on the debt at the time but I would do it again in a heartbeat. If you qualify for 0 financial aid then you are probably from a decently well off family and it may make sense to just take Yale at sticker. I got the max need-based aid and took out about 160k in loans.

I did not enjoy Yale because it's a weird place full of weird people, but it has been worth it in the post-grad world. Grades are not real so all of that stress does not exist during the job search. You will be the first to get a job and receive signing bonuses in the good times. You will be the last to lose your job in the bad times. I know people in this thread say differently, but my experience is that the decision-makers (be it partners, GCs, etc.) do respect the Yale degree over others. A partner once joked that I could expense the full cost of my diploma frame, a Chicago grad down the hall could expense half the cost of theirs, and another associate who didn't go to a T14 school couldn't expense any of theirs. It was a joke but actually pretty telling of how they think about things. Partners have put me in meetings with clients and told them that I went to Yale even when I barely spoke during the meeting. I'm not sure how often that happens for other schools, but I don't think it's the norm. And I'm pretty certain that when I inevitably want to go in-house, the YLS name will continue to open doors.

Not saying that graduating debt-free wouldn't also be amazing and have its own pros, but just wanted to throw out the perspective of someone who has actually kind of been in the position and chose YLS.

The bolded is said at places at which you don't remotely need a YLS degree to get a job. Indeed, it's pretty much evidence about how little it truly matters in most situations. Getting random, meaningless praise from a partner at a generic firm is def worth 200k.

[Anonymous User]

I had a (much less prestigious) similar choice between a lower T14 full ride, and an ivy league T7 on partial scholly. Ok ok, it was Penn, and the other school was Northwestern. I took NU and it was absolutely the right choice, I'm in the same job I'd have gotten from Penn and with less debt. But sometimes I do have a tinge of regret. Not true regret because I know I made the right choice. I still know I was good enough to get into an Ivy (can't really articulate why that's important to me beyond the ranking etc, but it is). Just wanted to toss into the mix to say that I understand why someone would find this a tough decision and be tempted to go with the intangible preftige over the financially prudence choice.

NU v. Penn is not a material difference. YLS v. CCN is very significant for things like USSC clerkships or academia, making it a very different decision. No one is going to sit there years later regretting not going to Penn Law and missing out on opportunities, since Penn Law just doesn't open any special doors.

I don't regret missing out opportunity, but I do sometimes wish I had ivy league on my resume. Is that worth 100k...yes actually. Ah well.

I think OP just wants biglaw, so I don't see much of a difference in opportunity between YLS and CCN for that. Unless you want to clerk and/or unicorn outcome, where of course you'd need Yale.

YLS isn’t even clearly better than Chicago for clerkships anymore unless you’re talking like three of the SCOTUS justices. Chicago beat Yale’s clerk rate last year and put nine clerks on the Court. Yale does beat CN by a lot though for clerking.