Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities Forum

[Anonymous User]

Over the course of 3 years in law school and 7-10 years to partner track, OP will have plenty of time to learn how to only buy Allen Edmonds

[Anonymous User]

I don't think this is right, actually. Performing like this *might* get you all the way to non-equity partner at a firm that has enough rainmakers that they're ok paying you a lot just for the work. But for that little extra, you do need to dress, look, and act the part. Or else you'll most likely be relegated to a second-tier status as a back office guy, no matter how senior you are or how long you last. You're at that point expected to generate work, not just do it well. And that's a whole different ball game, where legal skills and work ethic are neither necessary nor sufficient.

Specific examples/anecdotes would help here.

[Buglaw]

Over the course of 3 years in law school and 7-10 years to partner track, OP will have plenty of time to learn how to only buy Allen Edmonds

I lol'd

[Anonymous User]

I don't think this is right, actually. Performing like this *might* get you all the way to non-equity partner at a firm that has enough rainmakers that they're ok paying you a lot just for the work. But for that little extra, you do need to dress, look, and act the part. Or else you'll most likely be relegated to a second-tier status as a back office guy, no matter how senior you are or how long you last. You're at that point expected to generate work, not just do it well. And that's a whole different ball game, where legal skills and work ethic are neither necessary nor sufficient.

Specific examples/anecdotes would help here.

Buy a decent suit and get it tailored? Over the course of 10+ years, I'm sure people could figure it out. Everything other than that is just having good people skills, and maybe learn how to play golf or something.

There were also at least 3 billionaires in my law school class, and the overall wealth of the student body was sickening at times.

But as someone from a pretty poor family, you learn to adapt and fit in, but there are some awkward moments for sure. Not to steal JD Vance's obviously fake dinner story, but at my callbacks, I remember not knowing which fork to use at the fancy lunches and being stressed about it for a bit before realizing literally no one cared.

[Tr3]

Chiming in to say that this discussion is why I think it's important firms create an affinity group for first generation attorneys. While most of the stuff mentioned in here is valid, there are so many more nuances to being a first gen/low income associate in biglaw. Much of which distracts from the ability to focus on the job and perform well. It's not only the flashy new experiences, but also actually engaging in work appropriately at what seems to be the most basic levels. Not to mention the pressures that come from outside work that also weigh on fist gen/low income associates. Simply navigating benefits, income, etc. can be new challenges -- both exciting and daunting.

Happy to chat further if you want to message me (4th year, biglaw in NYC and secondary market, low income, first gen, etc).

For a silly anecdote, I made a great group of friends as a first year associate, but at some point we were discussing summer plans and everyone in the group offered their summer house for a group getaway. It was funny. "Oh, we can spend the Memorial Day at our Fire Island house" "And fourth of July at our lake house" "And we can go to our cabin in the mountains!" -- very amusing, totally intimidating.

In the end, you'll be fine. Don't let these things interfere with your desire to become an attorney in biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

For a silly anecdote, I made a great group of friends as a first year associate, but at some point we were discussing summer plans and everyone in the group offered their summer house for a group getaway. It was funny. "Oh, we can spend the Memorial Day at our Fire Island house" "And fourth of July at our lake house" "And we can go to our cabin in the mountains!" -- very amusing, totally intimidating.

"and I have a tent and some sleeping bags"

[Poldy]

No one with real money or wealth becomes a lawyer these days.

Hence why firms wining and dining summers impresses them.

The worst thing you can do is to express such insecurities, or say outloud awkward things like what you've written in your post. Don't overcompensate for anything, undercompensate for anything - rich or poor everyone just eats, breathes and poos just the same in the end. There is no "gap" to really bridge.

Yes, but I do think that people from blue collar backgrounds are the exception. The median associate is probably from a middle to upper middle class family. Not old money wealth, but certainly comfortable.

For what it's worth, I did sometimes see the few associates from blue collar backgrounds experience some cultural issues (mostly in terms of dress), but absolutely nothing that would be a deal breaker.

Curious how can one tell the difference in terms of dressing sense. Serious question, grew up outside the country.

You can't. I work with many people that come from professional backgrounds (including some with BigLaw partners for parents) that wear the worst clothes I've ever seen day-to-day and barely improve for client meetings. Buy a few non-black suits (have them tailored to fit), half a dozen white and blue shirts, black shoes, and a black belt and you'll be dressed better than 90% of your colleagues.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think this is right, actually. Performing like this *might* get you all the way to non-equity partner at a firm that has enough rainmakers that they're ok paying you a lot just for the work. But for that little extra, you do need to dress, look, and act the part. Or else you'll most likely be relegated to a second-tier status as a back office guy, no matter how senior you are or how long you last. You're at that point expected to generate work, not just do it well. And that's a whole different ball game, where legal skills and work ethic are neither necessary nor sufficient.

Specific examples/anecdotes would help here.

Buy a decent suit and get it tailored? Over the course of 10+ years, I'm sure people could figure it out. Everything other than that is just having good people skills, and maybe learn how to play golf or something.

There were also at least 3 billionaires in my law school class, and the overall wealth of the student body was sickening at times.

But as someone from a pretty poor family, you learn to adapt and fit in, but there are some awkward moments for sure. Not to steal JD Vance's obviously fake dinner story, but at my callbacks, I remember not knowing which fork to use at the fancy lunches and being stressed about it for a bit before realizing literally no one cared.

And to piggy back off this a little - I absolutely wouldn’t notice or care what fork someone used, right or wrong. I think the thing is that I would notice is if someone seemed uncomfortable about not knowing what fork to use, if that distinction makes sense (because someone who looks uncomfortable tends to make others feel uncomfortable). That’s pretty unfair, I know, because it puts the burden on you not to show you how might be feeling, rather than putting a burden on the people who are already comfortable to help you feel comfortable. But it might help to remember that people are pretty self-absorbed and won’t focus on the little things as long as you can fake serenity about it all.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Grew up firmly UMC in an east coast suburb. Often have no idea when someone is bringing up a fancy liquor or a clothing brand or a hotel. You're probably not as behind as you think you are.

Not that I can talk you out of insecurity, but people are just not looking at you nearly as much as you think they are. I don't think I've ever noticed another associate's wardrobe; I've got my own shit to worry about. Nobody's getting offended if you dip your nigiri wrong. Or if you don't know what nigiri is.

Of course the partner's gonna favor someone who was in the same Princeton frat as them. People favor those who are most like them and that's life. But what's the point of trying to impress the partnership? You think you're gonna con them about who you are for a decade?

In the business sense, partners actually hope their associates don't have much money. That way you'll stay longer. Takes longer before you can leave for a chiller job or whatever "passion project" all the rich kids left to do after a year.

[Wild Card]

all you need to learn are office politics

that is, how to say no to work

emailing etiquette and responsiveness

dressing properly, maintaining good hygeine and grooming

IME, V20 firms draw upper, upper middle class people, and V50 much less so.

[nealric]

No one with real money or wealth becomes a lawyer these days.

Hence why firms wining and dining summers impresses them.

The worst thing you can do is to express such insecurities, or say outloud awkward things like what you've written in your post. Don't overcompensate for anything, undercompensate for anything - rich or poor everyone just eats, breathes and poos just the same in the end. There is no "gap" to really bridge.

Yes, but I do think that people from blue collar backgrounds are the exception. The median associate is probably from a middle to upper middle class family. Not old money wealth, but certainly comfortable.

For what it's worth, I did sometimes see the few associates from blue collar backgrounds experience some cultural issues (mostly in terms of dress), but absolutely nothing that would be a deal breaker.

Curious how can one tell the difference in terms of dressing sense. Serious question, grew up outside the country.

It's just stuff that's within the letter of the dress code, but not what anybody would actually wear. Nothing wrong with it per-se, but it stands out in an environment where the unspoken rule is not to stand out with what you wear. It's sort of similar to how someone who is not a native English speaker will say things that are technically grammatically correct, but not something that any native speaker would ever say. An example would be something like wearing a tie color matched to a shirt.

[papercutter]

On clothes, buy a copy of Dressing the Man for $30. It'll give you a good idea of what is considered "normal" in American business culture-- like not wearing black suits or shirts other than blue or white. Don't stress too much about looking _good_ (most lawyers don't) but you want to blend in without being self-conscious about it. After a few years you'll internalize it, and it'll all be second nature.

For most things, I've found that doing some background research helps. Someone upthread suggested doing background research about hotels before business travel, and I second that. I'd note that YouTube is a blessing here: you can find endless videos about dining etiquette, hotel points, what a concierge does, etc. You don't NEED to know any of that, but knowing will probably make you feel better. I've found personally that it's also fine to just write off areas of knowledge you don't have. When my colleagues chat about the intricacies of different private schools (going back generations) I'll listen politely and try to puzzle it out, but when asked, note that I'm probably not the best guy to ask since my public high school had like a 30% graduation rate. I don't pretend to know a damned thing about wine, and don't pretend to. 95% of the people you deal with won't care, and the other 5% are assholes. Most of this is about putting you in a position where you're not feeling insecure or needlessly stressing.

The network gap is real, and makes a difference in your career. Pay attention NOW to network-building and fully using the college and law school networks you're tied into.

[Anonymous User]

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only T14 grad / biglaw attorney who has a GED.

[Anonymous User]

it will not matter so long as you can apply the "fake it til you make it" maxim. i don't mean lie about your background or pretend you know how to play polo, i just mean you don't have to announce it every 5 minutes.

Sometimes "faking it" means hiding your confusion/wonder/shock, or sharing it later with someone at the appropriate time. Do not do what someone in my summer class did and constantly exclaim about how amazing things are. Said person was out to a very nice lunch with me and a senior associate and expressed that he never had sparkling water before when they served us Perrier and couldn't stop talking about how great it was. Absolutely nothing wrong with never having it before, but consider your audience. I still think about this years later because it was very cringe. He also had terrible jeans similar to what my dad (age 80) wears.

[Anonymous User]

it will not matter so long as you can apply the "fake it til you make it" maxim. i don't mean lie about your background or pretend you know how to play polo, i just mean you don't have to announce it every 5 minutes.

Sometimes "faking it" means hiding your confusion/wonder/shock, or sharing it later with someone at the appropriate time. Do not do what someone in my summer class did and constantly exclaim about how amazing things are. Said person was out to a very nice lunch with me and a senior associate and expressed that he never had sparkling water before when they served us Perrier and couldn't stop talking about how great it was. Absolutely nothing wrong with never having it before, but consider your audience. I still think about this years later because it was very cringe. He also had terrible jeans similar to what my dad (age 80) wears.

He never had seltzer before? That's not even about being poor, I was poor and we drank seltzer. Granted, perrier tastes better than your typical seltzer.

I disagree with fake it til you make it on this -- don't pretend to know more than you do, that way leads to embarrassment. Nobody cares if you aren't familiar with something, just be honest. Don't be wide eyed but don't pretend.

[Anonymous User]

Said person was out to a very nice lunch with me and a senior associate and expressed that he never had sparkling water before when they served us Perrier and couldn't stop talking about how great it was. Absolutely nothing wrong with never having it before, but consider your audience. I still think about this years later because it was very cringe. He also had terrible jeans similar to what my dad (age 80) wears.

Why would this be cringe? Are there other factors at issue here? You and maybe the senior associate seem a little judgey.

[Anonymous User]

Said person was out to a very nice lunch with me and a senior associate and expressed that he never had sparkling water before when they served us Perrier and couldn't stop talking about how great it was. Absolutely nothing wrong with never having it before, but consider your audience. I still think about this years later because it was very cringe. He also had terrible jeans similar to what my dad (age 80) wears.

Why would this be cringe? Are there other factors at issue here? You and maybe the senior associate seem a little judgey.

That is pretty cringe.

[Anonymous User]

Is judgey mcjudgerson here a partner or non trad? How is your dad 80.

[basketofbread]

No one with real money or wealth becomes a lawyer these days.

Hence why firms wining and dining summers impresses them.

The worst thing you can do is to express such insecurities, or say outloud awkward things like what you've written in your post. Don't overcompensate for anything, undercompensate for anything - rich or poor everyone just eats, breathes and poos just the same in the end. There is no "gap" to really bridge.

This is important OP. In my experience big law attracts a huge number of middle and lower middle class striver types who are beset by class anxiety. A lot of people born into wealth would rather do something more fun and less insane, like becoming actors or professional activists.

Speaking as someone who comes from a similar background to you, I really haven’t felt like it’s a big deal. Just be cool and take everything in stride. You will probably end up talking about this with other associates and even partners (a lot of whom also come from middle class / poor backgrounds).

Also this job has made me realize with absolute certainty that most wealthy people do nothing of value and in a just society would be considered criminals.

[Anonymous User]

On clothes, buy a copy of Dressing the Man for $30. It'll give you a good idea of what is considered "normal" in American business culture-- like not wearing black suits or shirts other than blue or white. Don't stress too much about looking _good_ (most lawyers don't) but you want to blend in without being self-conscious about it. After a few years you'll internalize it, and it'll all be second nature.

loling because I was at a trial recently where the Plaintiff (not a sympathetic or unsophisticated plaintiff; he's an ultra-high-net-worth a**hole) showed up for the first day and for his direct examination not only in a black suit, but with a black *shirt*. We thought his lawyers were committing malpractice letting him dress like that in front of a jury.

He won anyway haha.

[Anonymous User]

On clothes, buy a copy of Dressing the Man for $30. It'll give you a good idea of what is considered "normal" in American business culture-- like not wearing black suits or shirts other than blue or white. Don't stress too much about looking _good_ (most lawyers don't) but you want to blend in without being self-conscious about it. After a few years you'll internalize it, and it'll all be second nature.

loling because I was at a trial recently where the Plaintiff (not a sympathetic or unsophisticated plaintiff; he's an ultra-high-net-worth a**hole) showed up for the first day and for his direct examination not only in a black suit, but with a black *shirt*. We thought his lawyers were committing malpractice letting him dress like that in front of a jury.

He won anyway haha.

Wonder if he knew what he was doing. Elon Musk / former guy in your face style is more sympathetic to regular folk than pristine wall street type

[Anonymous User]

On clothes, buy a copy of Dressing the Man for $30. It'll give you a good idea of what is considered "normal" in American business culture-- like not wearing black suits or shirts other than blue or white. Don't stress too much about looking _good_ (most lawyers don't) but you want to blend in without being self-conscious about it. After a few years you'll internalize it, and it'll all be second nature.

loling because I was at a trial recently where the Plaintiff (not a sympathetic or unsophisticated plaintiff; he's an ultra-high-net-worth a**hole) showed up for the first day and for his direct examination not only in a black suit, but with a black *shirt*. We thought his lawyers were committing malpractice letting him dress like that in front of a jury.

He won anyway haha.

Wonder if he knew what he was doing. Elon Musk / former guy in your face style is more sympathetic to regular folk than pristine wall street type

Could be. He looked like a Staten Island mafioso (my stereotype of one at least), but the case was nowhere near New York. Pretty meek on the stand though.