How precise are you with billing? Forum

[Anonymous User]

So as an associate, my conclusion would then be what? That I should never do any work (even emails) during a call, meeting, or training, even if I’m capable of doing it? Sounds like I’d be wasting my time and the firm’s money because that work could have been billed for after the call if I just waited until it was over. Incentives for being inefficient and slow.

Absolutely not. Obviously the ethical answer is never 'delay work to maximize billing.'

The answer is really simple: do your work as it comes and bill accurately. If you spent 0.2 answering an email for client A while on a 1.0 call to client B, you can't ethically bill client B and client A for that same time. You clearly can't bill that time to client B since you weren't working for client B. So you bill 0.2 to client A and 0.8 to client B.

Of course, if you fire off a 1 minute email (0.1 for client A) and still spent 59 minutes on the call for client B, then it's more of a gray area. Some would bill 1.1 for the whole interaction - 0.1 to client A and 1.0 to client B. But the most ethical answer is you can't bill more than 1 hour in a single hour's time - split your entries accordingly.

I know math is hard for us lawyers, but come on we have to try.

[Anonymous User]

So as an associate, my conclusion would then be what? That I should never do any work (even emails) during a call, meeting, or training, even if I’m capable of doing it? Sounds like I’d be wasting my time and the firm’s money because that work could have been billed for after the call if I just waited until it was over. Incentives for being inefficient and slow.

Absolutely not. Obviously the ethical answer is never 'delay work to maximize billing.'

The answer is really simple: do your work as it comes and bill accurately. If you spent 0.2 answering an email for client A while on a 1.0 call to client B, you can't ethically bill client B and client A for that same time. You clearly can't bill that time to client B since you weren't working for client B. So you bill 0.2 to client A and 0.8 to client B.

Of course, if you fire off a 1 minute email (0.1 for client A) and still spent 59 minutes on the call for client B, then it's more of a gray area. Some would bill 1.1 for the whole interaction - 0.1 to client A and 1.0 to client B. But the most ethical answer is you can't bill more than 1 hour in a single hour's time - split your entries accordingly.

I know math is hard for us lawyers, but come on we have to try.

OP, this is what others have meant with that billing is a very gray area. I completely disagree that you should bill like this, but I get why he/she would come to this conclusion. Like another has said, it's very much a don't ask, don't tell policy regarding billing, because nobody knows the exact rules. None of the posters here are wrong.

Even the other example that was brought up, about doing extra review on a document to pad some more time. Others would say that is the whole point of biglaw, incredible amounts of review and attention to detail even though the effects are absolutely marginal I myself have been put on hours-long review of an offering document (after I already had reviewed it twice before that week) and all I got out of it were two insignificant typos. Should the Senior Associate who tasked me this be brought up for an ethical violation for this? Of course not. But can the argument be made it was useless reviewing? OF course.

[Anonymous User]

So..say if I turn in my work product at 7pm and wait until 9pm doing nothing for a senior associate to send me his/her comments, can I bill those 2 hours?

[Anonymous User]

So as an associate, my conclusion would then be what? That I should never do any work (even emails) during a call, meeting, or training, even if I’m capable of doing it? Sounds like I’d be wasting my time and the firm’s money because that work could have been billed for after the call if I just waited until it was over. Incentives for being inefficient and slow.

Absolutely not. Obviously the ethical answer is never 'delay work to maximize billing.'

The answer is really simple: do your work as it comes and bill accurately. If you spent 0.2 answering an email for client A while on a 1.0 call to client B, you can't ethically bill client B and client A for that same time. You clearly can't bill that time to client B since you weren't working for client B. So you bill 0.2 to client A and 0.8 to client B.

Of course, if you fire off a 1 minute email (0.1 for client A) and still spent 59 minutes on the call for client B, then it's more of a gray area. Some would bill 1.1 for the whole interaction - 0.1 to client A and 1.0 to client B. But the most ethical answer is you can't bill more than 1 hour in a single hour's time - split your entries accordingly.

I know math is hard for us lawyers, but come on we have to try.

OP, this is what others have meant with that billing is a very gray area. I completely disagree that you should bill like this, but I get why he/she would come to this conclusion. Like another has said, it's very much a don't ask, don't tell policy regarding billing, because nobody knows the exact rules. None of the posters here are wrong.

Even the other example that was brought up, about doing extra review on a document to pad some more time. Others would say that is the whole point of biglaw, incredible amounts of review and attention to detail even though the effects are absolutely marginal I myself have been put on hours-long review of an offering document (after I already had reviewed it twice before that week) and all I got out of it were two insignificant typos. Should the Senior Associate who tasked me this be brought up for an ethical violation for this? Of course not. But can the argument be made it was useless reviewing? OF course.

OP pay no attention to this troll. This poster's ignorance of "the exact rules" doesn't make them right. It's literally clear as day that you cannot double bill for the same time if you are billing by the hour. I don't have time to dig up the best materials, but this should suffice: https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam ... eckdam.pdf. The only contra authority is some article in the Brandeis Law Journal, which is edited by *gasp* undergraduates. Prove me wrong.

Just because you might get away with it and never get caught doesn't mean that in the event that your billing gets audited you're being ethical.

[Anonymous User]

So..say if I turn in my work product at 7pm and wait until 9pm doing nothing for a senior associate to send me his/her comments, can I bill those 2 hours?

You're smarter than that.

[Anonymous User]

For the last four years I've billed 2200-2400 hours (including pro bono) without padding at all, and that fact alone puts me at a significant disadvantage to any of my colleagues who are hitting their hours with padding. That's a lot of time to have billed honestly.

[Anonymous User]

So..say if I turn in my work product at 7pm and wait until 9pm doing nothing for a senior associate to send me his/her comments, can I bill those 2 hours?

You're smarter than that.

Actually, some ppl do think they can bill this.

[Anonymous User]

The real answer is that the partners have no incentive (in fact have the opposite incentive) to ever question your billing as long as it's reasonably plausible. Do whatever you want with billing and your results will range from fine to thriving.

[Anonymous User]

I have one DD exercises where I had a podcast in the background, and I sometimes paid more attention to the podcast than the DD work. My work slowed down a lot as a result, I'm sure. I just billed the time and that was that. I've also been on calls whilst doing work on something else, and then just billed time for both the call and the separate work I was doing. I once had to write a doc and the entire exercise was insanely stupid as I knew it would not be used. So halfway through the assignment I vented about it to my partner for 20 minutes. I billed that too, I can even assert that I was just discussing the assignment. Once I had my final deal of the year ending, but I still about an hour away from my billables requirement. So I just proofread the document a few times. You never know after all!

Do I think all of these are perfectly fine to bill? Maybe, maybe not. But I think there is a reason why lawyers don't tell you how to bill. It's a don't ask, don't tell policy. Do what works for you, just maybe don't completely make things up.

Double billing the same time to multiple clients is literally a textbook example of an ethics violation. So is completely unnecessarily duplicative review to pad hours.

Anyone reading the above: Hope that it's sarcasm. But if it's not, don't emulate. If I found out someone was doing this I would feel absolutely compelled to report them under my state's mandatory reporting rules.

Dude, I know a ton of people who might be forced to be on a call (if there is like 20 people on it and you aren't leading it or even the primary associate on it) who might also spend some of that time responding to other quick emails, etc. I had a partner who had me lead calls every so often purely so that he could actively work on other stuff during the call and then chime in when he felt he needed to. Exercise your own judgment of the situation.

You exercise your own judgment of that situation by billing to the more appropriate matter (probably not the call), not by double billing. I was using literal in the proper sense. This is classic double billing and it is very, very not ok. It's only a little better than the classic example of double billing when you work while traveling. There are a lot of shades of gray in billing--like the thing about whether to cut some time if you were exceedingly distracted while working, or whether you need to review the document one more time. This isn't one of them.

I don't normally get heated on TLS but no one should read your post and come away thinking that double billing for the time is ok.

So as an associate, my conclusion would then be what? That I should never do any work (even emails) during a call, meeting, or training, even if I’m capable of doing it? Sounds like I’d be wasting my time and the firm’s money because that work could have been billed for after the call if I just waited until it was over. Incentives for being inefficient and slow.

Agree. Lawyers get their panties in a bunch over rules, regardless if they make practical sense or not. I want to go to bed. I want to see my kids and wife. If I am able to do that, then I couldn't give a fuck what some dumb rule says.

[Anonymous User]

I'm appalled at the advice ITT. Just to be clear, none of those advocating for questionable billable practices have made any arguments they are ethical. Their SOLE defense is you won't get caught. That's probably true. For OP who is actually looking for advice here though, it's up to you what you do with this information. But the correct answer seems pretty clear.

[Anonymous User]

I'm appalled at the advice ITT. Just to be clear, none of those advocating for questionable billable practices have made any arguments they are ethical. Their SOLE defense is you won't get caught. That's probably true. For OP who is actually looking for advice here though, it's up to you what you do with this information. But the correct answer seems pretty clear.

I personally am with you in that I don't feel comfortable taking liberties to pad hours. But the point you are making does not need to be made? Why would people have ethical arguments in defense of violating a rule of ethics? Generally, when people violate rules they don't pay much attention to whether their behavior is ethical. Wow... what a concept.

[Anonymous User]

I'm appalled at the advice ITT. Just to be clear, none of those advocating for questionable billable practices have made any arguments they are ethical. Their SOLE defense is you won't get caught. That's probably true. For OP who is actually looking for advice here though, it's up to you what you do with this information. But the correct answer seems pretty clear.

I personally am with you in that I don't feel comfortable taking liberties to pad hours. But the point you are making does not need to be made? Why would people have ethical arguments in defense of violating a rule of ethics? Generally, when people violate rules they don't pay much attention to whether their behavior is ethical. Wow... what a concept.

You completely missed the point. My post was not to tell those "violating a rule of ethics" that they ought to pay attention to the rules. Right back at you: no shit Sherlock, that won't work.

My post was instead explicitly directed at OP (see the bolded) who posed the question of ethics and less explicitly to the untrained eyes (cough cough 1Ls) reading along. Some posters ITT repeatedly responded to "ethical arguments," to use your term, by arguing that they'll never get caught. That's a non sequitur worth pointing out to those who may have missed it.

[Anonymous User]

I'm appalled at the advice ITT. Just to be clear, none of those advocating for questionable billable practices have made any arguments they are ethical. Their SOLE defense is you won't get caught. That's probably true. For OP who is actually looking for advice here though, it's up to you what you do with this information. But the correct answer seems pretty clear.

I personally am with you in that I don't feel comfortable taking liberties to pad hours. But the point you are making does not need to be made? Why would people have ethical arguments in defense of violating a rule of ethics? Generally, when people violate rules they don't pay much attention to whether their behavior is ethical. Wow... what a concept.

You completely missed the point. My post was not to tell those "violating a rule of ethics" that they ought to pay attention to the rules. Right back at you: no shit Sherlock, that won't work.

My post was instead explicitly directed at OP (see the bolded) who posed the question of ethics and less explicitly to the untrained eyes (cough cough 1Ls) reading along. Some posters ITT repeatedly responded to "ethical arguments," to use your term, by arguing that they'll never get caught. That's a non sequitur worth pointing out to those who may have missed it.

Lawyers really do have the worst personalities you're both insufferable lmao.

[Anonymous User]

You exercise your own judgment of that situation by billing to the more appropriate matter (probably not the call), not by double billing. I was using literal in the proper sense. This is classic double billing and it is very, very not ok. It's only a little better than the classic example of double billing when you work while traveling. There are a lot of shades of gray in billing--like the thing about whether to cut some time if you were exceedingly distracted while working, or whether you need to review the document one more time. This isn't one of them.

I don't normally get heated on TLS but no one should read your post and come away thinking that double billing for the time is ok.

So as an associate, my conclusion would then be what? That I should never do any work (even emails) during a call, meeting, or training, even if I’m capable of doing it? Sounds like I’d be wasting my time and the firm’s money because that work could have been billed for after the call if I just waited until it was over. Incentives for being inefficient and slow.

Agree. Lawyers get their panties in a bunch over rules, regardless if they make practical sense or not. I want to go to bed. I want to see my kids and wife. If I am able to do that, then I couldn't give a fuck what some dumb rule says.

The incessant stupidity in this thread filled with actual lawyers is astonishing. News flash: you can absolutely answer an email for 0.3 on an hour long call. Just bill 0.3 for the email, bill 0.7 for the call, and go home to see your family and sleep.

If you can go to sleep at night knowing you billed 1.3 for that exact same scenario, then that's your choice. But don't keep posting here pretending like it's so darn hard to bill ethically or insinuating that billing properly means you can't see your family. Those are lies you tell yourself to help you pad your hours.

[Anonymous User]

So..say if I turn in my work product at 7pm and wait until 9pm doing nothing for a senior associate to send me his/her comments, can I bill those 2 hours?

You're smarter than that.

Actually, some ppl do think they can bill this.

Obviously you need more facts, but to me this is quite plausibly billable by an ethical attorney. You bill for time you spend doing something for the client. So, if the senior says "I'll have this back to you in two hours," I'd say you can't bill it because you can go see a movie or whatever. But if the instruction is "send this to me and I'll send it back ASAP and you need to be ready to implement changes right after that," then you're on-call that entire time solely in the interests of the client. It is, under that circumstance billable.
In reality, you have more than one thing you could be doing while on-call, and the question is why didn't you work on other tasks (work for other clients, training, business development, editing billing narratives, recruiting, etc.). If you truly didn't, that's a bit weird. And if you *did*, there's a double-billing problem. Thus, even though this could be billable, it probably is not.