Mid law salary negotiation Forum

[ChickenSalad]

To be clear, I said as equity partner making 350-500, not a junior partner. Not sure where that came from. There is no way these 12+ year partners at firms with between 100-200 lawyers are making under 350.

So at what point of ones careeer is someone allowed to consider equity partnership potential? Or is your position that nobody should ever think about this until they are equity partner which begs the question of how anybody ever becomes an equity partner anywhere.

People don’t make equity partner just because they’re good lawyers. They make it because they have a huge book of business. At the regional big law firms that i know of (amlaw 100-200) you have to generate over a million dollars per year in collections to be eligible for equity partnership. And you have to do it for multiple years, not just a one off.

You’re moving to a different market so unless you have a realistic plan for developing client relationships and generating a huge book of business, yes it’s asinine to even consider equity partnership as a factor. Even if that market is your hometown.

So At what point is someone allowed to think about equity partnership? Or you are saying nobody ever makes equity partner anyways so never think about it. Seems like a very short sighted viewpoint. Have you already been passed over for equity partner? Seems like you must have some experience and unique knowledge to be making such strong statements that no senior associates should consider whether they will make partner.

Well that’s an egregious straw man. I didn’t say it should never be considered. I said that you shouldn’t move to a new market as a fifth year without a book of business and factor equity partnership into your decision. The fact that you worked at a V10 has no impact whatsoever on partnership prospects at this firm. It’s all about generating revenue.

Frankly, i’m not sure why you think equity partner should be a factor other than the fact that you worked at a V10 as an associate

[MarcusH]

To be clear, I said as equity partner making 350-500, not a junior partner. Not sure where that came from. There is no way these 12+ year partners at firms with between 100-200 lawyers are making under 350.

So at what point of ones careeer is someone allowed to consider equity partnership potential? Or is your position that nobody should ever think about this until they are equity partner which begs the question of how anybody ever becomes an equity partner anywhere.

People don’t make equity partner just because they’re good lawyers. They make it because they have a huge book of business. At the regional big law firms that i know of (amlaw 100-200) you have to generate over a million dollars per year in collections to be eligible for equity partnership. And you have to do it for multiple years, not just a one off.

You’re moving to a different market so unless you have a realistic plan for developing client relationships and generating a huge book of business, yes it’s asinine to even consider equity partnership as a factor. Even if that market is your hometown.

So At what point is someone allowed to think about equity partnership? Or you are saying nobody ever makes equity partner anyways so never think about it. Seems like a very short sighted viewpoint. Have you already been passed over for equity partner? Seems like you must have some experience and unique knowledge to be making such strong statements that no senior associates should consider whether they will make partner.

Well that’s an egregious straw man. I didn’t say it should never be considered. I said that you shouldn’t move to a new market as a fifth year without a book of business and factor equity partnership into your decision. The fact that you worked at a V10 has no impact whatsoever on partnership prospects at this firm. It’s all about generating revenue.

Frankly, i’m not sure why you think equity partner should be a factor other than the fact that you worked at a V10 as an associate

Eh, you're being a bit defeatist - midlaw is all over the place - I can name 3 or 4 midlaw firms in my market where you'll make partner (well within 10 years of practicing) if you come from NY as a 5th year with good, translatable experience. I also can name 2 or 3 regional biglaw firms in my market where you do need a $1mm book of business to actually make equity. Junior (1st year) partners at some of the midlaw places without books are making mid $300s and some don't require books to make equity. I'd say overall the pay discrepancy to me is no longer worth the marginal hours benefits if any (with bonuses, you're talking about $200K+/year), but it is to some and unlike biglaw you can't really say anything definitive about midlaw, every market and firm is different. I'll add though, I was personally surprised how many relatively senior equity partners at the midlaw firms in my area make significantly less than biglaw senior associates after bonuses and yet carry a lot of the same stress.

[Anonymous User]

I'll add though, I was personally surprised how many relatively senior equity partners at the midlaw firms in my area make significantly less than biglaw senior associates after bonuses and yet carry a lot of the same stress.

They carry even more stress than biglaw senior associates! They chose to sacrifice $$ for location...

[Anonymous User]

I'll add though, I was personally surprised how many relatively senior equity partners at the midlaw firms in my area make significantly less than biglaw senior associates after bonuses and yet carry a lot of the same stress.

They carry even more stress than biglaw senior associates! They chose to sacrifice $$ for location...

It’s not like those senior equity partners have a choice of being a senior associate. Up or out still exists.

[Anonymous User]

Anon here for obvious reasons. Chiming in on the whole salary/work life balance thing. I am an associate at a “mid-law” firm with between 100 and 200 attorneys in a secondary-ish market (think Nashville, Charlotte, Tampa, Raleigh, Columbus, Minneapolis, etc.). The salary compression in mid law is real. Our first years start at $180 and the seventh years are at about $225. There are generally small bonuses of between $10 and $30 each year, depending on class year.

At my firm many of the associates have serious biglaw credentials. COA clerks, T14 summa grads, etc. So the pay could be much better elsewhere. But people give the pay up to work at my firm because it has a strong reputation and work-life balance is real. Most years the average associate billable hours is at or below 1700—and because our firm makes most of its associates partners (and straight to equity, as there is no two-tier partnership), the to-be-partners are billing at this level.

All of this is to say that there are good mid-law options that pay reasonably well and have strong work life balance. But I do not think my firm is typical. I think on average the mid law firms pay a lot less while expecting almost biglaw hours. It takes time and effort, and a lot of luck, to find the few midlaw firms that offer the good trade-off.

[axolawtl]

Anon here for obvious reasons. Chiming in on the whole salary/work life balance thing. I am an associate at a “mid-law” firm with between 100 and 200 attorneys in a secondary-ish market (think Nashville, Charlotte, Tampa, Raleigh, Columbus, Minneapolis, etc.). The salary compression in mid law is real. Our first years start at $180 and the seventh years are at about $225. There are generally small bonuses of between $10 and $30 each year, depending on class year.

At my firm many of the associates have serious biglaw credentials. COA clerks, T14 summa grads, etc. So the pay could be much better elsewhere. But people give the pay up to work at my firm because it has a strong reputation and work-life balance is real. Most years the average associate billable hours is at or below 1700—and because our firm makes most of its associates partners (and straight to equity, as there is no two-tier partnership), the to-be-partners are billing at this level.

All of this is to say that there are good mid-law options that pay reasonably well and have strong work life balance. But I do not think my firm is typical. I think on average the mid law firms pay a lot less while expecting almost biglaw hours. It takes time and effort, and a lot of luck, to find the few midlaw firms that offer the good trade-off.

Would you be willing to PM me the city/firm you're talking about? I'm living in one of these cities and would be interested in working at a place like this.

[Anonymous User]

Chiming in to say I worked at a mid law firm where senior associates made 300k, income partners made 350 and some equity partners made in the millions. If you billed 2k hours you were at the top of the associate hours charts. We were pretty elite, though in a bunch of random practice areas and most associates came from t14 law schools and there were more Harvard grads than at my prior V5 as a proportion of my group. Just to say 270k isn’t necessarily dead in the water if the firm is elite and wants elite folks.

[Anonymous User]

Chiming in to say I worked at a mid law firm where senior associates made 300k, income partners made 350 and some equity partners made in the millions. If you billed 2k hours you were at the top of the associate hours charts. We were pretty elite, though in a bunch of random practice areas and most associates came from t14 law schools and there were more Harvard grads than at my prior V5 as a proportion of my group. Just to say 270k isn’t necessarily dead in the water if the firm is elite and wants elite folks.

This sounds like a boutique and not midlaw. My old boutique paid seventh years $300k (pre-DPW raise) and bonuses could exceed market depending on hours. A few equity partners took in $3-5m, and first year partners (all equity partners) made around $400k + $40k 401k contributions + some weird % calculation on collections.

Edit: majority of associates are T14 with honors, 80%+ of partners are T6 with honors.

[Anonymous User]

Data point: in my small market (MSA pop of 500k-1m), the top of the market for starting salary is 140-160k, and the firms at the top of the market are generally hiring people with biglaw-level credentials. Hours expectations are ~1850 and equity partnership odds are very high at local firms and decent (much better than true BL, but not close to 100%) at "regional biglaw" firms. People who turn down BL for this generally do it for a mix of family, the hours, the cost of living (you can buy a nice house as a junior associate), the partnership prospects, and (for litigators) the trial experience.

If you interviewed with my firm and gave a salary estimate of NY minus ten percent, I would not take you seriously. It would show a lack of research into the market and hence a lack of seriousness about moving. And if the money's a dealbreaker for you despite the huge COL advantage and the partnership prospects, you wouldn't take the job anyway.

[Anonymous User]

Do these firms paying 150 or whatever actually offer that mythical concept of work life balance? Or are people taking these jobs because they're eased out of biglaw.

I think people take these jobs because of location. Once (if) biglaw's move to the model of WFH everywhere, these midlaw firms are dead in the competition for talent.

They still have better hours and much, much better partnership prospects, and the lifestyle is the dominant reason why people turn down biglaw for smaller markets. I could probably move to KE or Quinn right now but I won't because if I wanted to bill 2500 and never make partner I'd just have gone to biglaw. I think *if* you want to work in BL, doing it in a smaller market is a fantastic deal, but for many people with BL-level credentials who work in smaller markets now, not working in BL is the point.

[Anonymous User]

Fwiw in my market (1) equity partnership odds are not the same across firms but (2) overall are realistic enough that if you're not considering them when moving, especially as a fifth year, you're doing yourself a huge disservice. Not all firms require a book of business to make partner, the models are heterogenous and often don't look much like biglaw firms. Because of the heterogeneity local knowledge is super valuable when moving, but these markets are unfortunately much more opaque than big-market biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

The other thing is that bonuses are nominal or nonexistent. So 260 as a 5th year is really like 30-35 percent below biglaw. I guess I just need to decide what level pay I am willing to go down

[Anonymous User]

Chiming in to say I worked at a mid law firm where senior associates made 300k, income partners made 350 and some equity partners made in the millions. If you billed 2k hours you were at the top of the associate hours charts. We were pretty elite, though in a bunch of random practice areas and most associates came from t14 law schools and there were more Harvard grads than at my prior V5 as a proportion of my group. Just to say 270k isn’t necessarily dead in the water if the firm is elite and wants elite folks.

This sounds like a boutique and not midlaw. My old boutique paid seventh years $300k (pre-DPW raise) and bonuses could exceed market depending on hours. A few equity partners took in $3-5m, and first year partners (all equity partners) made around $400k + $40k 401k contributions + some weird % calculation on collections.

Edit: majority of associates are T14 with honors, 80%+ of partners are T6 with honors.

Maybe. We were full service. Bonuses were bad. To the point where you felt like a fool if you billed more than 1800. We called ourselves a mid sized firm. There was another similar mid sized firm in our city and I don’t really think either of us were a boutique as we were full service. More just a holdover from times when there was such a thing as a really good full service mid sized firm that worked for really good clients doing really good work. Most of similar firms were bought up by large national firms twenty years ago.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Just wanted to check back in so people here realize to not take this forum as gospel. I asked for the amount I said and got exactly that. Nobody laughed. They may have winced a little, but I got what I asked for.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Just wanted to check back in so people here realize to not take this forum as gospel. I asked for the amount I said and got exactly that. Nobody laughed. They may have winced a little, but I got what I asked for.

You provided no information about the size or prevailing salaries of the market you’re considering and got a range of detailed responses from midlaw lawyers across the country, virtually all of whom emphasized the idiosyncrasies and market/firm-dependence of midlaw. I’d guess you were targeting a larger or higher-COL market than most of the responses thought you were, but the respondents had no way to know that. Congrats on the job, though.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Just wanted to check back in so people here realize to not take this forum as gospel. I asked for the amount I said and got exactly that. Nobody laughed. They may have winced a little, but I got what I asked for.

You provided no information about the size or prevailing salaries of the market you’re considering and got a range of detailed responses from midlaw lawyers across the country, virtually all of whom emphasized the idiosyncrasies and market/firm-dependence of midlaw. I’d guess you were targeting a larger or higher-COL market than most of the responses thought you were, but the respondents had no way to know that. Congrats on the job, though.

Totally, and I very much appreciate the qualified responses. It's the definitive comments saying i'd get laughed at that I am warning against. Yes, lots of idiosyncracies. Just saying that people should take the information they get here with a grain of salt, that's all.