What actually qualifies as "diverse" for 1L diversity fellowships? Forum

[12YrsAnAssociate]

If a straight white male applied to a diversity position at my firm, I would think that he has very poor judgment and would recommend not hiring him if he reapplied for a 2L SA.

Are those the only types of diversity that matter? That seems really closed-minded.

Close minded or not, I think this answer represents a very typical view. Likely no one would know other than HR, which would just trash the application. But large swaths of people get really worked up over this type of stuff. I would normally recommend spamming your resume into every opening on earth, but in this case I'd avoid it. Not because I think only certain races or genders are diverse, but because it's ultimately not a fight an applicant would want to take on.

[Lacepiece23]

If a straight white male applied to a diversity position at my firm, I would think that he has very poor judgment and would recommend not hiring him if he reapplied for a 2L SA.

Are those the only types of diversity that matter? That seems really closed-minded.

Close minded or not, I think this answer represents a very typical view. Likely no one would know other than HR, which would just trash the application. But large swaths of people get really worked up over this type of stuff. I would normally recommend spamming your resume into every opening on earth, but in this case I'd avoid it. Not because I think only certain races or genders are diverse, but because it's ultimately not a fight an applicant would want to take on.

I’ll take a stronger stance because I can, and my opinions only reflect on me and not anyone else’s firm.

This is all dumb. A white person that made it to HYS has his or her life set absent and major fuck ups. Regardless of whether you think there is some black person out there that wrongfully gets a hand when they don’t need it, you know the history in this country.

And you know the present too. Just let diverse persons apply and submit your application to spots that aren’t meant for diverse people. It’s not that hard.

In the end, I promise the karma of Doug the right thing will pay off.

[Anonymous User]

If a straight white male applied to a diversity position at my firm, I would think that he has very poor judgment and would recommend not hiring him if he reapplied for a 2L SA.

Are those the only types of diversity that matter? That seems really closed-minded.

Close minded or not, I think this answer represents a very typical view. Likely no one would know other than HR, which would just trash the application. But large swaths of people get really worked up over this type of stuff. I would normally recommend spamming your resume into every opening on earth, but in this case I'd avoid it. Not because I think only certain races or genders are diverse, but because it's ultimately not a fight an applicant would want to take on.

I’ll take a stronger stance because I can, and my opinions only reflect on me and not anyone else’s firm.

This is all dumb. A white person that made it to HYS has his or her life set absent and major fuck ups. Regardless of whether you think there is some black person out there that wrongfully gets a hand when they don’t need it, you know the history in this country.

And you know the present too. Just let diverse persons apply and submit your application to spots that aren’t meant for diverse people. It’s not that hard.

In the end, I promise the karma of Doug the right thing will pay off.

Fair. But do they have their life any more set than a diverse student at HYS? Should any HYS student apply?

Not every white t14 student is Chadworth Buckingham IV with connections and massive parental support. I'd be interested in seeing data, but I'm guessing that at these top schools, average law school debt by race is somewhat equal.

I do think many middle class and poor people (of all races) roll their eyes at these sorts of intra-elite squabbles. Are we really suggesting that diverse HYS students are so afflicted by systemic bias that it needs constant attention and correction?

And while representation at the top matters, 1L SA programs seems to most like a drop in the bucket compared to the powerful and successful affirmative action admissions and hiring programs in-place. It also robs these students of agency to suggest that without even more help, they wont have doors open to them.

None of this is practical advice for any non-diverse student thinking about applying to a 1L SA. Its a suggestion that we talk about the opportunities available to T14 law students of all backgrounds in a more moderate manner.

[Anonymous User]

If a straight white male applied to a diversity position at my firm, I would think that he has very poor judgment and would recommend not hiring him if he reapplied for a 2L SA.

Are those the only types of diversity that matter? That seems really closed-minded.

Close minded or not, I think this answer represents a very typical view. Likely no one would know other than HR, which would just trash the application. But large swaths of people get really worked up over this type of stuff. I would normally recommend spamming your resume into every opening on earth, but in this case I'd avoid it. Not because I think only certain races or genders are diverse, but because it's ultimately not a fight an applicant would want to take on.

I’ll take a stronger stance because I can, and my opinions only reflect on me and not anyone else’s firm.

This is all dumb. A white person that made it to HYS has his or her life set absent and major fuck ups. Regardless of whether you think there is some black person out there that wrongfully gets a hand when they don’t need it, you know the history in this country.

And you know the present too. Just let diverse persons apply and submit your application to spots that aren’t meant for diverse people. It’s not that hard.

In the end, I promise the karma of Doug the right thing will pay off.

Fair. But do they have their life any more set than a diverse student at HYS? Should any HYS student apply?

Not every white t14 student is Chadworth Buckingham IV with connections and massive parental support. I'd be interested in seeing data, but I'm guessing that at these top schools, average law school debt by race is somewhat equal.

I do think many middle class and poor people (of all races) roll their eyes at these sorts of intra-elite squabbles. Are we really suggesting that diverse HYS students are so afflicted by systemic bias that it needs constant attention and correction?

And while representation at the top matters, 1L SA programs seems to most like a drop in the bucket compared to the powerful and successful affirmative action admissions and hiring programs in-place. It also robs these students of agency to suggest that without even more help, they wont have doors open to them.

None of this is practical advice for any non-diverse student thinking about applying to a 1L SA. Its a suggestion that we talk about the opportunities available to T14 law students of all backgrounds in a more moderate manner.

Yeah, any person at HYS is likely set absent very poor decision making. There have been several studies on the benefits of affirmative action programs for black people. The benefits disproportionately do not go to those who are descended from slaves or jim crow America. The benefits disproportionately go to children of black immigrants or those who were otherwise middle class and not descended from those severely discriminated legacies. The same logic applied above could say that middle class black people or black children of more recent immigrants should take a pass because those people who the programs were initally intended to advantage (descendants of slaves and Jim Crow America) aren't reaping the benefits. I think this is a stupid point. I also think the others are stupid points. If you are actually diverse apply. If it's not what the firms are looking for they can say no.

[Lacepiece23]

If a straight white male applied to a diversity position at my firm, I would think that he has very poor judgment and would recommend not hiring him if he reapplied for a 2L SA.

Are those the only types of diversity that matter? That seems really closed-minded.

Close minded or not, I think this answer represents a very typical view. Likely no one would know other than HR, which would just trash the application. But large swaths of people get really worked up over this type of stuff. I would normally recommend spamming your resume into every opening on earth, but in this case I'd avoid it. Not because I think only certain races or genders are diverse, but because it's ultimately not a fight an applicant would want to take on.

I’ll take a stronger stance because I can, and my opinions only reflect on me and not anyone else’s firm.

This is all dumb. A white person that made it to HYS has his or her life set absent and major fuck ups. Regardless of whether you think there is some black person out there that wrongfully gets a hand when they don’t need it, you know the history in this country.

And you know the present too. Just let diverse persons apply and submit your application to spots that aren’t meant for diverse people. It’s not that hard.

In the end, I promise the karma of Doug the right thing will pay off.

Fair. But do they have their life any more set than a diverse student at HYS? Should any HYS student apply?

Not every white t14 student is Chadworth Buckingham IV with connections and massive parental support. I'd be interested in seeing data, but I'm guessing that at these top schools, average law school debt by race is somewhat equal.

I do think many middle class and poor people (of all races) roll their eyes at these sorts of intra-elite squabbles. Are we really suggesting that diverse HYS students are so afflicted by systemic bias that it needs constant attention and correction?

And while representation at the top matters, 1L SA programs seems to most like a drop in the bucket compared to the powerful and successful affirmative action admissions and hiring programs in-place. It also robs these students of agency to suggest that without even more help, they wont have doors open to them.

None of this is practical advice for any non-diverse student thinking about applying to a 1L SA. Its a suggestion that we talk about the opportunities available to T14 law students of all backgrounds in a more moderate manner.

Yeah, any person at HYS is likely set absent very poor decision making. There have been several studies on the benefits of affirmative action programs for black people. The benefits disproportionately do not go to those who are descended from slaves or jim crow America. The benefits disproportionately go to children of black immigrants or those who were otherwise middle class and not descended from those severely discriminated legacies. The same logic applied above could say that middle class black people or black children of more recent immigrants should take a pass because those people who the programs were initally intended to advantage (descendants of slaves and Jim Crow America) aren't reaping the benefits. I think this is a stupid point. I also think the others are stupid points. If you are actually diverse apply. If it's not what the firms are looking for they can say no.

I won't assume, although I highly suspect, that both of these quoted posts are from white people. So, I challenge you. Think about a time in your life where someone told you that you could not do something because you are white. This is what this is really about.

For black people, we're told at an early age all of the things that we can't do because of the color of our skin. We can't talk back to police, get too comfortable at an all-white bar, stand too close to a white woman in an elevator, the list goes on.

These positions are meant for diverse students. And you're doing mental gymnastics to justify applying for them because you're being told that you cannot do something. Just deal with it. It's not the end of the world if there is a single opportunity that you don't have in front of you.

The minority HYS student still has to deal with all of the above bs and much more. And you will never understand the discrimination that even an upper-middle-class black person goes through during their life. But you can go ahead and cry foul if you wish about a single opportunity that benefits minorities over yourself when you have no idea what real discrimination feels like. That's your call.

Lastly, quit hiding behind anon.

[Anonymous User]

If a straight white male applied to a diversity position at my firm, I would think that he has very poor judgment and would recommend not hiring him if he reapplied for a 2L SA.

Are those the only types of diversity that matter? That seems really closed-minded.

Close minded or not, I think this answer represents a very typical view. Likely no one would know other than HR, which would just trash the application. But large swaths of people get really worked up over this type of stuff. I would normally recommend spamming your resume into every opening on earth, but in this case I'd avoid it. Not because I think only certain races or genders are diverse, but because it's ultimately not a fight an applicant would want to take on.

I’ll take a stronger stance because I can, and my opinions only reflect on me and not anyone else’s firm.

This is all dumb. A white person that made it to HYS has his or her life set absent and major fuck ups. Regardless of whether you think there is some black person out there that wrongfully gets a hand when they don’t need it, you know the history in this country.

And you know the present too. Just let diverse persons apply and submit your application to spots that aren’t meant for diverse people. It’s not that hard.

In the end, I promise the karma of Doug the right thing will pay off.

Fair. But do they have their life any more set than a diverse student at HYS? Should any HYS student apply?

Not every white t14 student is Chadworth Buckingham IV with connections and massive parental support. I'd be interested in seeing data, but I'm guessing that at these top schools, average law school debt by race is somewhat equal.

I do think many middle class and poor people (of all races) roll their eyes at these sorts of intra-elite squabbles. Are we really suggesting that diverse HYS students are so afflicted by systemic bias that it needs constant attention and correction?

And while representation at the top matters, 1L SA programs seems to most like a drop in the bucket compared to the powerful and successful affirmative action admissions and hiring programs in-place. It also robs these students of agency to suggest that without even more help, they wont have doors open to them.

None of this is practical advice for any non-diverse student thinking about applying to a 1L SA. Its a suggestion that we talk about the opportunities available to T14 law students of all backgrounds in a more moderate manner.

Yeah, any person at HYS is likely set absent very poor decision making. There have been several studies on the benefits of affirmative action programs for black people. The benefits disproportionately do not go to those who are descended from slaves or jim crow America. The benefits disproportionately go to children of black immigrants or those who were otherwise middle class and not descended from those severely discriminated legacies. The same logic applied above could say that middle class black people or black children of more recent immigrants should take a pass because those people who the programs were initally intended to advantage (descendants of slaves and Jim Crow America) aren't reaping the benefits. I think this is a stupid point. I also think the others are stupid points. If you are actually diverse apply. If it's not what the firms are looking for they can say no.

I won't assume, although I highly suspect, that both of these quoted posts are from white people. So, I challenge you. Think about a time in your life where someone told you that you could not do something because you are white. This is what this is really about.

For black people, we're told at an early age all of the things that we can't do because of the color of our skin. We can't talk back to police, get too comfortable at an all-white bar, stand too close to a white woman in an elevator, the list goes on.

These positions are meant for diverse students. And you're doing mental gymnastics to justify applying for them because you're being told that you cannot do something. Just deal with it. It's not the end of the world if there is a single opportunity that you don't have in front of you.

The minority HYS student still has to deal with all of the above bs and much more. And you will never understand the discrimination that even an upper-middle-class black person goes through during their life. But you can go ahead and cry foul if you wish about a single opportunity that benefits minorities over yourself when you have no idea what real discrimination feels like. That's your call.

Lastly, quit hiding behind anon.

I mean, there are certainly all kinds of things white men and women are told they can’t do, right? You are saying they can’t apply to these diversity positions. I think if they wanted to run for mayor of Atlanta, they would be told they are unlikely to succeed based on the fact that they are white. There are hundreds of other examples. None of which is to say they are oppressed by their skin color (which they aren’t), but your point is overly dramatic and not true.

No one is saying black people (even middle class black people at HYS) don’t experience significant discrimination that white people dont, or that all diversity programs are bad or shouldnt benefit POCs or LGBTQs, but there are certainly other kinds of diversity, right? If you are raised in Appalachia by parents with opioid addictions, come from foster care, immigrated from a poor oppressive Eastern European country due to political persecution, etc. and are a straight white male or female, I just don’t agree that (a) all black people or other POCs necessarily have it worse and (b) that isn’t diversity that firms should be considering. Sure, if you are a run of the mill white male or female from a middle class background in the U.S. you probably shouldn’t be applying. But if you are actually diverse, I don’t think skin color/sexual orientation diversity is the only diversity that matters. I also don’t believe that you think upper middle class POCs in general have a harder life than a whole slew of straight white folks coming from the above mentioned backgrounds (but maybe I’m wrong).

[Anonymous User]

Worst thread I've ever seen

[Anonymous User]

Are those the only types of diversity that matter? That seems really closed-minded.

Close minded or not, I think this answer represents a very typical view. Likely no one would know other than HR, which would just trash the application. But large swaths of people get really worked up over this type of stuff. I would normally recommend spamming your resume into every opening on earth, but in this case I'd avoid it. Not because I think only certain races or genders are diverse, but because it's ultimately not a fight an applicant would want to take on.

I’ll take a stronger stance because I can, and my opinions only reflect on me and not anyone else’s firm.

This is all dumb. A white person that made it to HYS has his or her life set absent and major fuck ups. Regardless of whether you think there is some black person out there that wrongfully gets a hand when they don’t need it, you know the history in this country.

And you know the present too. Just let diverse persons apply and submit your application to spots that aren’t meant for diverse people. It’s not that hard.

In the end, I promise the karma of Doug the right thing will pay off.

Fair. But do they have their life any more set than a diverse student at HYS? Should any HYS student apply?

Not every white t14 student is Chadworth Buckingham IV with connections and massive parental support. I'd be interested in seeing data, but I'm guessing that at these top schools, average law school debt by race is somewhat equal.

I do think many middle class and poor people (of all races) roll their eyes at these sorts of intra-elite squabbles. Are we really suggesting that diverse HYS students are so afflicted by systemic bias that it needs constant attention and correction?

And while representation at the top matters, 1L SA programs seems to most like a drop in the bucket compared to the powerful and successful affirmative action admissions and hiring programs in-place. It also robs these students of agency to suggest that without even more help, they wont have doors open to them.

None of this is practical advice for any non-diverse student thinking about applying to a 1L SA. Its a suggestion that we talk about the opportunities available to T14 law students of all backgrounds in a more moderate manner.

Yeah, any person at HYS is likely set absent very poor decision making. There have been several studies on the benefits of affirmative action programs for black people. The benefits disproportionately do not go to those who are descended from slaves or jim crow America. The benefits disproportionately go to children of black immigrants or those who were otherwise middle class and not descended from those severely discriminated legacies. The same logic applied above could say that middle class black people or black children of more recent immigrants should take a pass because those people who the programs were initally intended to advantage (descendants of slaves and Jim Crow America) aren't reaping the benefits. I think this is a stupid point. I also think the others are stupid points. If you are actually diverse apply. If it's not what the firms are looking for they can say no.

I won't assume, although I highly suspect, that both of these quoted posts are from white people. So, I challenge you. Think about a time in your life where someone told you that you could not do something because you are white. This is what this is really about.

For black people, we're told at an early age all of the things that we can't do because of the color of our skin. We can't talk back to police, get too comfortable at an all-white bar, stand too close to a white woman in an elevator, the list goes on.

These positions are meant for diverse students. And you're doing mental gymnastics to justify applying for them because you're being told that you cannot do something. Just deal with it. It's not the end of the world if there is a single opportunity that you don't have in front of you.

The minority HYS student still has to deal with all of the above bs and much more. And you will never understand the discrimination that even an upper-middle-class black person goes through during their life. But you can go ahead and cry foul if you wish about a single opportunity that benefits minorities over yourself when you have no idea what real discrimination feels like. That's your call.

Lastly, quit hiding behind anon.

I mean, there are certainly all kinds of things white men and women are told they can’t do, right? You are saying they can’t apply to these diversity positions. I think if they wanted to run for mayor of Atlanta, they would be told they are unlikely to succeed based on the fact that they are white. There are hundreds of other examples. None of which is to say they are oppressed by their skin color (which they aren’t), but your point is overly dramatic and not true.

No one is saying black people (even middle class black people at HYS) don’t experience significant discrimination that white people dont, or that all diversity programs are bad or shouldnt benefit POCs or LGBTQs, but there are certainly other kinds of diversity, right? If you are raised in Appalachia by parents with opioid addictions, come from foster care, immigrated from a poor oppressive Eastern European country due to political persecution, etc. and are a straight white male or female, I just don’t agree that (a) all black people or other POCs necessarily have it worse and (b) that isn’t diversity that firms should be considering. Sure, if you are a run of the mill white male or female from a middle class background in the U.S. you probably shouldn’t be applying. But if you are actually diverse, I don’t think skin color/sexual orientation diversity is the only diversity that matters. I also don’t believe that you think upper middle class POCs in general have a harder life than a whole slew of straight white folks coming from the above mentioned backgrounds (but maybe I’m wrong).

Yes you are.

[Anonymous User]

As long as we’re on the topic, I’m pretty sure gay white men are over represented in big law and I’m not sure why we get the diversity boost (and I have always felt uncomfortable with it).

[Anonymous User]

I'm an adjunct prof at a pretty low ranked law school. I taught a 1L course this semester. I have a couple really good students that are minorities. I doubt this school advises these students to try to get diversity 1L positions, because I doubt this school puts any students into biglaw. Are there any good links available I can send to the top 1 or 2 students that I think have a chance at one of these? I have a day job and I don't want to spend a ton of time on this, because I just don't have the time, but I'd like to help to the extent I can.

[Anonymous User]

I'm an adjunct prof at a pretty low ranked law school. I taught a 1L course this semester. I have a couple really good students that are minorities. I doubt this school advises these students to try to get diversity 1L positions, because I doubt this school puts any students into biglaw. Are there any good links available I can send to the top 1 or 2 students that I think have a chance at one of these? I have a day job and I don't want to spend a ton of time on this, because I just don't have the time, but I'd like to help to the extent I can.

If you want to just get info on how to apply, tell them to simply go through the websites of the v100 one by one (that's the list formerly by vault now of firsthand) and on the careers section it should say how to apply. Alternatively they can email the recruitment contacts that are listed on nalp. Another good option is to filter attorneys to find alum and cold email them. There are always a couple even at low ranked firms. Obviously this is a lot of work but you should be able to direct your students to these resources without it taking up much of your time.

If anyone else has a more efficient process feel free to chime in.

[Anonymous User]

At HYS. Our career services team has been really bullish on people going for 1L fellowships, even if they aren't classically diverse. In a meeting I had with one of them, they talked about how someone being from Kansas had been sufficiently diverse in the past.

Is this a load of drivel? I normally would go with what they say, but looking at posts on here it seems like the TLS standard response is that you need to be actually diverse to have a shot at these roles. I'm not "classically" diverse (generic straight white male #237,333) but I'm from a less-populated state than Kansas and I have significant experience living + working on reservations (and have continued native-oriented work in law school). Trying to figure out if I'd be wasting my time by applying to these roles or not.

Anon because post history + this post would make me easily identifiable.

Just apply - like you said the worst they can do is say "no". FWIW, I applied, didn't get it, but was put on a "short-list" of sorts for pre-OCI recruiting and had two offers going into OCI through this.

[Anonymous User]

As long as we’re on the topic, I’m pretty sure gay white men are over represented in big law and I’m not sure why we get the diversity boost (and I have always felt uncomfortable with it).

While I (bi woman senior associate) have encountered a good deal of white gay men associates and a few partners, I've also heard some outright bigoted shit from straight male partners regarding gay people, bi women and transgender people who didn't realize I was bi. And these were not super old guys either. They were mainly in the 40-55 range. I've also run into the rarer homophobic and transphobic associate. So even if white gay men are the least badly oppressed of LGBT people in biglaw, I still think it's worth it to have people like you around, especially if you become partner and can push back when another partner calls trans women "men in dresses" or calls a bi woman a "degenerate." And I know at least one gay male (POC) associate who was absolutely harassed and bullied by the partners based in part on his orientation until he left.

Or if you signal that you're someone that more junior LGBT people can come to about that sort of of thing. And there's a ton of pro bono for LGBT clients and issues out there that you can work on if you still feel guilty about any "boost" you got for being gay.