NYC V20 or Secondary Market V50? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, I read through this and narrowed it down to 2 cities: Philly and Boston.

Since V50, I’m assuming one of Morgan Lewis or Goodwin, although it could be a satellite.

OP would be crazy to choose to go to a V20 in NY when both Philly and Boston are big cities (and firms) that will give him/her access to the same sorts of exit opportunities AND his/her fiancé is there.

NY fun is only fun if you’re single.

Can’t be Philly MLB, that’s the HQ so there would hardly be a career hit. Boston makes sense. Boston sucks.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, chiming in again.

Thanks to everyone who's responded. I'm not going to respond to the idea that I "don't want to be with my fiance", except to say that that is a patently ridiculous and untrue idea. I have discussed this decision with him extensively, and he says that he supports whatever decision I decide to make. I'm in a position where my fiance is in one city but I feel like my career ambitions are in another; that doesn't mean that I love him any less.

The way I read it was that OP is currently a 2L that went through OCI and is currently weighing offers for their 2L SA position.

This is correct.

If "I'm not sure if I'd like to spend the rest of my career in the secondary market" and "it might be fun to spend a few years in NYC" are code for "I don't want to spend the rest of my career in the secondary market" and "I want to spend a few years in NYC," then it'll be a lot easier to give you input.

Personally, I'd start at the V50 firm to be closer to my fiance, but I can't tell if NYC is in the realm of idle fantasy, or if you are trying to downplay the fact that you don't want to live in a secondary market and do want to live in NYC. If the latter, you should probably start there (and have a serious conversation with your fiance).

You're basically right. I think I would be happy to settle down, raise a family, etc., in the secondary market, but I don't want to live there now. I didn't go to law school with the intention of just being a lawyer in my hometown my whole life. I'd really like to experience the caliber and quality of work that I think a V20 NY firm would provide, and I'm not sure I could get that from the V50. But, I'm equally unsure that that trade-off is worth a two-year minimum LDR (depending on his capacity to find work in NYC once he's done), on top of the two more years of LDR that we have while I finish law school. Maybe he'd be able to come up and join me at that point, maybe he'd stay in the city he's in right now and wait for me to come join him; lots of variables in play.

[2013]

OP here, chiming in again.

Thanks to everyone who's responded. I'm not going to respond to the idea that I "don't want to be with my fiance"; except to say that that is a patently ridiculous and untrue idea. I have discussed this decision with him extensively, and he says that he supports whatever decision I decide to make. I'm in a position where my fiance is in one city but I feel like my career ambitions are in another; that doesn't mean that I love him any less.

The way I read it was that OP is currently a 2L that went through OCI and is currently weighing offers for their 2L SA position.

This is correct.

If "I'm not sure if I'd like to spend the rest of my career in the secondary market" and "it might be fun to spend a few years in NYC" are code for "I don't want to spend the rest of my career in the secondary market" and "I want to spend a few years in NYC," then it'll be a lot easier to give you input.

Personally, I'd start at the V50 firm to be closer to my fiance, but I can't tell if NYC is in the realm of idle fantasy, or if you are trying to downplay the fact that you don't want to live in a secondary market and do want to live in NYC. If the latter, you should probably start there (and have a serious conversation with your fiance).

You're basically right. I think I would be happy to settle down, raise a family, etc., in the secondary market, but I don't want to live there now. I didn't go to law school with the intention of just being a lawyer in my hometown my whole life. I'd really like to experience the caliber and quality of work that I think a V20 NY firm would provide, and I'm not sure I could get that from the V50. But, I'm equally unsure that that trade-off is worth a two-year minimum LDR (depending on his capacity to find work in NYC once he's done), on top of the two more years of LDR that we have while I finish law school. Maybe he'd be able to come up and join me at that point, maybe he'd stay in the city he's in right now and wait for me to come join him; lots of variables in play.

I’m not trying to be a dick, but unless your fiancé is some rockstar PhD student, he is most likely not going to land a post doc job in NYC. What’s going to happen if his only offer is in Wauwatosa or something? Are you going to make another excuse to live your glamorous (lol) V20 life?

Putting your personal life on hold so you can get more “sophisticated” work at a V20 in NY v a V50 in another sizable city makes absolutely no sense. Doc review is doc review no matter where it is (DD if corporate). You will always be able to go to NY. It’s really not a hard market to break into if you’re already at a V50 somewhere.

I think you’re really underestimating how busy you will be at the V20. People who live in the same apartments as their significant others feel like they don’t see them enough when they work biglaw hours at that level.

I, and a lot of others on here, think you will regret not going to your hometown V50.

[nixy]

There are still a few PhD programs where grads have more control over their job location (like maybe it's some kind of big-pharma-attractive chemistry PhD, or some kind of engineering).

But that's just a nit. I vote hometown V50 as well. The opportunities and exit options aren't worth a LDR. Unlike others here I don't think you considering NYC means you don't want to be with your fiance, but I don't think whatever extra career benefit are there are enough to support the LDR (and I say this as someone who's done the LDR for the career, but because there weren't other options).

[Robot]

I think if your worry is sophistication of work you’re not going to take a hit by being at Goodwin Boston, K&S Atlanta, etc. vs. being in NY. In lit (a) big cases and traditional white shoe firms are often poor for juniors’ development and (b) the most complex work is spread around the country more than in transactional. That’s why nobody would choose S&C over Munger. And long-term market trends may be against the big NY lit practices.

Also, since it seems that your desired long-term exit options will not be in New York, it seems very dubious to think New York firms will have an advantage for obtaining them.

[becodalapa]

Really curious about what “caliber and quality of work” you’re going to miss out on by going to a V50 instead of a V20, OP. Do you have any concrete examples of work the V20 does that the V50 doesn’t? What exactly makes you think the V50’s work is of a lower caliber? Is this just based on the Vault ranking and firm marketing?

Like if you have your heart set on, say, energy work and the V50 doesn’t have an energy practice, that’s one thing. If you just feel like a V20 must do higher caliber work because it’s a NYC V20, that’s another.

[CanadianWolf]

OP: My impression is that you want support for your decision to accept a 4 year long distance relationship and that is why many question the future longevity of the relationship. A lot of life happens over a 4 year period.

[Anonymous User]

If "I'm not sure if I'd like to spend the rest of my career in the secondary market" and "it might be fun to spend a few years in NYC" are code for "I don't want to spend the rest of my career in the secondary market" and "I want to spend a few years in NYC," then it'll be a lot easier to give you input.

Personally, I'd start at the V50 firm to be closer to my fiance, but I can't tell if NYC is in the realm of idle fantasy, or if you are trying to downplay the fact that you don't want to live in a secondary market and do want to live in NYC. If the latter, you should probably start there (and have a serious conversation with your fiance).

You're basically right. I think I would be happy to settle down, raise a family, etc., in the secondary market, but I don't want to live there now. I didn't go to law school with the intention of just being a lawyer in my hometown my whole life. I'd really like to experience the caliber and quality of work that I think a V20 NY firm would provide, and I'm not sure I could get that from the V50. But, I'm equally unsure that that trade-off is worth a two-year minimum LDR (depending on his capacity to find work in NYC once he's done), on top of the two more years of LDR that we have while I finish law school. Maybe he'd be able to come up and join me at that point, maybe he'd stay in the city he's in right now and wait for me to come join him; lots of variables in play.

Hi OP, I'm the Anon you're replying to here. I think the general consensus at TLS is going to be skeptical of a move that puts you in a long-distance relationship with a fiance for 2-4 years. Personally, I'm skeptical of that, too (I would specifically caution that there's not some secret law you'd be practicing at a New York V20 that they don't practice at a V50, for what that's worth — the caliber and quality is probably going to be more or less the same). However, I also entirely understand the allure of New York City, and it seems like this is a city you need to try out for yourself, otherwise you may always be wondering "what if?"

I'd still advise hedging a bit. Could you split your summer between the two firms? Does your law school offer the ability to extern in New York/take classes at a law school in New York as a visiting student 3L? I'm not very familiar with programs like that, but I believe they exist at some places.

Have you done long-distance before? Do you have a rock-solid relationship? These are questions you should be asking yourself, because only you and your fiance know if this will work for you. Think about how much of your lives you will be spending apart. Assuming you're both 25 and will live to be 80, and if you were apart for 4 years, that's just under 8% of your future life together, spent apart. If you're apart for 2 years, that's ~4%. And these are the years where you will be in the prime of your life.

If I were in your shoes weighing this choice, I wouldn't sacrifice so much time with the person I want to spend the rest of my life with.

Disclaimer: As a non-native New Yorker, I went the CLS —> NYC biglaw route. I worry that you may be viewing NYC with rose-tinted glasses. I think if you have some time, you should try to spend some time in the city during law school, and perhaps split your summer between these two firms. But whatever you decide, best of luck to you both!

[ExpOriental]

I'd really like to experience the caliber and quality of work that I think a V20 NY firm would provide, and I'm not sure I could get that from the V50. But, I'm equally unsure that that trade-off is worth a two-year minimum LDR (depending on his capacity to find work in NYC once he's done), on top of the two more years of LDR that we have while I finish law school. Maybe he'd be able to come up and join me at that point, maybe he'd stay in the city he's in right now and wait for me to come join him; lots of variables in play.

I have some bad news for your relationship if you are even a little unsure about this

[mardash]

OP, if you think you do eventually want to back to your hometown, it’s worth exploring how many biglaw roles there are out there. If it’s say, Seattle or San Diego or some other desirable place with not a lot of spaces, it may be easier to take the V50 than lateral later.

OP: My impression is that you want support for your decision to accept a 4 year long distance relationship and that is why many question the future longevity of the relationship. A lot of life happens over a 4 year period.

Very, very accurate.

[The Lsat Airbender]

I have discussed this decision with him extensively, and he says that he supports whatever decision I decide to make.

He's saying that because he's a decent guy who doesn't want to exert control over your life choices, not because it's a good idea. Distance kills if the LDR has an indeterminate end-time.

I'm in a position where my fiance is in one city but I feel like my career ambitions are in another; that doesn't mean that I love him any less.

It means that you love him less than, idk, being able to use the Central Park snapchat filter or whatever cachet you hope to enjoy in NYC. If you could articulate an actual reason why this matters for your career, people wouldn't be so hard on you.

[Anonymous User]

in a similar boat where i'm debating between satellite office v10 (STB LA) v. HQ v30 (MOFO SF). Both are corporate positions. I wish to settle down in LA in the future, but I also think it would be nice to experience the bay area legal market since I will not be considering a move to SF if I start out in LA.
- prestige associated with STB and the PE work is top-notch BUT it is a small office and I am not sure how the culture is
- HQ for Mofo, more flexibility than STB on exploration for corporate work BUT don't plan to stay in the bay area long term and I'd be throwing away a v10 offer
- also considering which firm might help me with lateral opportunities or exits to in-house positions
Any thoughts?

[ExpOriental]

in a similar boat where i'm debating between satellite office v10 (STB LA) v. HQ v30 (MOFO SF). Both are corporate positions. I wish to settle down in LA in the future, but I also think it would be nice to experience the bay area legal market since I will not be considering a move to SF if I start out in LA.
- prestige associated with STB and the PE work is top-notch BUT it is a small office and I am not sure how the culture is
- HQ for Mofo, more flexibility than STB on exploration for corporate work BUT don't plan to stay in the bay area long term and I'd be throwing away a v10 offer
- also considering which firm might help me with lateral opportunities or exits to in-house positions
Any thoughts?

Stop paying any attention to Vault

Are you also trying to escape an engagement? If so, just avoid whichever city your fiance(e) lives in

[The Lsat Airbender]

Preferring STB to MoFo because of Vault rankings is just *chef's kiss* lmao

[ExpOriental]

Preferring STB to MoFo because of Vault rankings is just *chef's kiss* lmao

On the west coast, no less

Sometimes I wonder if I'm too vocal in shitting on Vault because I overestimate its influence. Then I see shit like this absolute gem of a thread, wherein a 2L seriously hems and haws over the choice between 1. blowing up their marriage before it even begins, or 2. accepting a - gasp - lowly, market paying "v50" in a major metro instead of White & Case NY or whatever the fuck.

Unhinged. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills seeing all the responses in this thread acting like this was an even slightly reasonable question.

[Anonymous User]

in a similar boat where i'm debating between satellite office v10 (STB LA) v. HQ v30 (MOFO SF). Both are corporate positions. I wish to settle down in LA in the future, but I also think it would be nice to experience the bay area legal market since I will not be considering a move to SF if I start out in LA.
- prestige associated with STB and the PE work is top-notch BUT it is a small office and I am not sure how the culture is
- HQ for Mofo, more flexibility than STB on exploration for corporate work BUT don't plan to stay in the bay area long term and I'd be throwing away a v10 offer
- also considering which firm might help me with lateral opportunities or exits to in-house positions
Any thoughts?

Because you really love the vault rankings so much, STB is not even V30 in SoCal, MoFo is V10 there. And you know what, MoFo is V2 in NorCal

[Anonymous User]

in a similar boat where i'm debating between satellite office v10 (STB LA) v. HQ v30 (MOFO SF). Both are corporate positions. I wish to settle down in LA in the future, but I also think it would be nice to experience the bay area legal market since I will not be considering a move to SF if I start out in LA.
- prestige associated with STB and the PE work is top-notch BUT it is a small office and I am not sure how the culture is
- HQ for Mofo, more flexibility than STB on exploration for corporate work BUT don't plan to stay in the bay area long term and I'd be throwing away a v10 offer
- also considering which firm might help me with lateral opportunities or exits to in-house positions
Any thoughts?

Because you really love the vault rankings so much, STB is not even V30 in SoCal, MoFo is V10 there. And you know what, MoFo is V2 in NorCal

it looked like STB ranked highly in its PE work in general but MOFO didn't have a strong point/work it is known for.

[ExpOriental]

in a similar boat where i'm debating between satellite office v10 (STB LA) v. HQ v30 (MOFO SF). Both are corporate positions. I wish to settle down in LA in the future, but I also think it would be nice to experience the bay area legal market since I will not be considering a move to SF if I start out in LA.
- prestige associated with STB and the PE work is top-notch BUT it is a small office and I am not sure how the culture is
- HQ for Mofo, more flexibility than STB on exploration for corporate work BUT don't plan to stay in the bay area long term and I'd be throwing away a v10 offer
- also considering which firm might help me with lateral opportunities or exits to in-house positions
Any thoughts?

Because you really love the vault rankings so much, STB is not even V30 in SoCal, MoFo is V10 there. And you know what, MoFo is V2 in NorCal

it looked like STB ranked highly in its PE work in general but MOFO didn't have a strong point/work it is known for.

Legal services

[Anonymous User]

Original OP, posting for perhaps the last time because I think this topic is probably played out at this point.

Thank you to all the kind and helpful posters:

Disclaimer: As a non-native New Yorker, I went the CLS —> NYC biglaw route. I worry that you may be viewing NYC with rose-tinted glasses. I think if you have some time, you should try to spend some time in the city during law school, and perhaps split your summer between these two firms. But whatever you decide, best of luck to you both!

OP: My impression is that you want support for your decision to accept a 4 year long distance relationship and that is why many question the future longevity of the relationship. A lot of life happens over a 4 year period.

I think you’re really underestimating how busy you will be at the V20. People who live in the same apartments as their significant others feel like they don’t see them enough when they work biglaw hours at that level.

I, and a lot of others on here, think you will regret not going to your hometown V50.

Your compassion is appreciated, even if it's not the answer I want to hear. This is a difficult decision for us and I really do appreciate your advice to consider all aspects of this.

Less thanks to the snarky, cynical, and mean:

It means that you love him less than, idk, being able to use the Central Park snapchat filter or whatever

I see shit like this absolute gem of a thread, wherein a 2L seriously hems and haws over the choice between 1. blowing up their marriage before it even begins, or 2. accepting a - gasp - lowly, market paying "v50" in a major metro instead of White & Case NY or whatever the fuck.

Unhinged. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills seeing all the responses in this thread acting like this was an even slightly reasonable question.

We've done long distance before, we're doing it now, we don't like it but neither of us want to be in a situation where one resents the other in 10 years for "sacrificing their career." I understand that you think it's absurd that I'm considering this but I'm really not some crazy/stupid/heartless bitch. Law school is a pressure cooker for prestige whoring and I'm looking for advice to figure out if, all things considered, a V20 will do more than a V50 for my career or if it's all just smoke from other insecure 2Ls. So far, consensus seems to be the latter.

I think if your worry is sophistication of work you’re not going to take a hit by being at Goodwin Boston, K&S Atlanta, etc. vs. being in NY. In lit (a) big cases and traditional white shoe firms are often poor for juniors’ development and (b) the most complex work is spread around the country more than in transactional. That’s why nobody would choose S&C over Munger. And long-term market trends may be against the big NY lit practices.

Also, since it seems that your desired long-term exit options will not be in New York, it seems very dubious to think New York firms will have an advantage for obtaining them.

Very helpful comment. The V50 is in that cachet, and lack of sophistication of work is exactly what I'm worried about. Desired long-term exit opps aren't in NYC but they aren't necessarily in the other market either. The question isn't about whether the V20 or the V50 will set me up better for one market or the other, it's about whether there will be a meaningful difference in outcomes anywhere else?

Really curious about what “caliber and quality of work” you’re going to miss out on by going to a V50 instead of a V20, OP. Do you have any concrete examples of work the V20 does that the V50 doesn’t? What exactly makes you think the V50’s work is of a lower caliber? Is this just based on the Vault ranking and firm marketing?

Basically, yes. Isn't a Cleary NY generally going to have more sophisticated work, all things considered, than an Alston & Bird Atlanta? If so, where is the cutoff? Because even if you say Milbank and Alston are the same, you can't say Milbank and Ballard Spahr Philadelphia are the same. Where is the line drawn?

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

(somehow triple posted, sorry lol)

[becodalapa]

Really curious about what “caliber and quality of work” you’re going to miss out on by going to a V50 instead of a V20, OP. Do you have any concrete examples of work the V20 does that the V50 doesn’t? What exactly makes you think the V50’s work is of a lower caliber? Is this just based on the Vault ranking and firm marketing?

Basically, yes. Isn't a Cleary NY generally going to have more sophisticated work, all things considered, than an Alston & Bird Atlanta? If so, where is the cutoff? Because even if you say Milbank and Alston are the same, you can't say Milbank and Ballard Spahr Philadelphia are the same. Where is the line drawn?

Wait, why are you comparing Cleary to firms ranked 56 and 90-something if your choices are a V20 and a V50? Besides, Vault isn’t really a good metric outside of NYC corporate, and even then it doesn’t tell you much. What does Chambers say about the offices of each firm in the practice areas you’re interested in? That will give you a better sense of the firm’s reputation and whether they’re likely to get good work in those areas.

That said, I really think you’re overestimating the degree to which Vault ranking affects the kind of work you do at a big firm, especially at a junior level. There really isn’t a line to draw in the way you seem to think there is. At this point, it seems like you’re just chasing prestige for the sake of prestige. The difference in exit opportunities from a V20 and a V50 are unlikely to matter enough to be worth putting this kind of strain on a relationship that you presumably want to last for the rest of your life, especially for a job that you’ll most likely leave in 5 years. It’s not like you’re choosing between a national, market-paying firm and a midsized regional firm that pays $100,000 with a 2000 hour requirement or something. That would be a different discussion.

Someone else made a great point about optionality. At some point you can’t keep every door open. This is one of those times. Choosing the V50 might (emphasis on might) mean there are a couple of opportunities that you miss out on, but the vast majority will remain open. I highly doubt that, down the road when you leave the firm to work for, for example, BigCorp B instead of MegaCorp A, you’ll wish you had spent less time with your fiancé.

Maybe I’m just not driven enough to understand this, but this seems like a very simple decision.

[Anonymous User]

I think a lot of it depends on how flexible your fiance is geographically when he is done with his program. Is it a PhD program? I saw a lot of speculation about that. If so (and even if it is in the sciences which does have more flexibility, but still is not as portable as a law degree), he will have almost no say in where he gets a tenure track job, so you will likely have to move with him at some point, and then to who knows where. Similarly if it's medical school and he'll be doing his residency.

I was in a long distance relationship for a long time until I finally moved to where my (geographically less flexible) husband is based, and our relationship was and continues to be great. It also matters what the distance is. Boston to New York is easy to do on the weekends, and if he is a PhD student writing his dissertation, he will have a lot more flexibility with when he can travel/from where he can work. But if it's like Ohio to New York or Texas to New York, the trip will be more difficult and you'll likely see each other less. There's nothing inherently wrong with long distance relationships -- some couples are great in them, others struggle. There's too many unknowns here to give any real advice (like how unsophisticated is your secondary market - no way to know based on what you've said). In general, though, I think it's ok to let career be the driver for a while so long as you are both on board with when and where that changes.

[kierkegaardaddy]

As a junior you probably will do very similar work at Clearly and Alston, and sometimes the smaller matters at “unsophisticated” firms like Alston sre better for juniors to hone their craft.

[nixy]

Someone else made a great point about optionality. At some point you can’t keep every door open. This is one of those times. Choosing the V50 might (emphasis on might) mean there are a couple of opportunities that you miss out on, but the vast majority will remain open. I highly doubt that, down the road when you leave the firm to work for, for example, BigCorp B instead of MegaCorp A, you’ll wish you had spent less time with your fiancé.

All of this post is good, but I can’t agree more with this part. I think there is still a message floating around in the zeitgeist that we can all “optimize” everything and make the decisions that will lead to the perfectly desired outcome. That’s just not how it works. You just want to avoid actively bad decisions. Work wise, there isn’t an actively bad decision here. Personal life wise, there could be.