In terms of prestige, does the firm or the office location matter more? Forum

[mardash]

The difference between Kirkland SF and Kirkland Chicago is that Kirkland SF associates have better weather and Kirkland Chicago associates have (generally) better food.

ETA: you’re an asshole

need you to elaborate on the "Chicago has better food" take lol. I'm open to it being true, but hard for me to believe.

The key advantage of Chicago is CoL. Also, with biglaw money you'll feel fairly wealthy. That won't be true in SF.

But then the winter comes and you live in Chicago and not SF.

[candycane7990]

Skadden Wilmington > Gibson Dunn New York ... lol

[the lsat failure]

Definitely one of the most TLS-y posts in a while...if being in a class of 100+ in NY at a white shoe firm is the apex of prestige, then you shouldn't conflate prestige with exclusivity/competitiveness. Being one in a class of 20 associates at a top firm in another primary market like LA/SF/DC is oftentimes much harder to achieve than starting at the HQ of the same firm (usually NY).

See the countless DC hopefuls that have the pick of the litter in NY but barely receive 1-2 V100 offers in the former. That person probably turned down quite a few amazing opportunities that come with plenty "preftige"

[Anonymous User]

OP: This is going to depend on the specific office of the specific firm, and even which practice you’re in. For example, Skadden Houston is perfectly fine, but it’s only 30 lawyers and not really an important factor in the Texas market. Kirkland Houston is 200+ lawyers and growing fast, topping out all the league tables, and widely regarded as part of the top tier in Texas (with V&E and Latham), debatably #1.

Obviously the experience in those two offices would be very different (good or bad), even though both are V10s in the same non-HQ market. Furthermore, a firm being at the top of the Houston market is very different than one being at the top of, idk, the Minneapolis market. It’s also not just about size - you mentioned Skadden Delaware, but despite its small size the DE market is home to tons of very important corporate work because of the Court of Chancery and so many of the world’s corporations being registered there.

Practice also matters. Being a litigator in DC is nearly always going to be far more prestigious (and more competitive) than doing it in NYC or anywhere else. Doing IP or VC work in SF is going to be at least as prestigious as NY, if not more.

The idea that the height of prestige is being at a firm’s NYC office, regardless of which firm it is or which practice you are in is ludicrous. Also, with cross-staffing (especially post-Covid), I know many people who live in, say, a Texas office but work 100% on deals out of the NYC office. So they’re doing literally the same job as an NYC associate, but with 11% higher pay, no face time requirement, and living either in a luxury apartment next to the office or a huge house 20 mins away. If I were an NYC associate on the same deal team, I’d feel pretty damn silly in comparison.

[Robot]

The difference between Kirkland SF and Kirkland Chicago is that Kirkland SF associates have better weather and Kirkland Chicago associates have (generally) better food.

ETA: you’re an asshole

need you to elaborate on the "Chicago has better food" take lol. I'm open to it being true, but hard for me to believe.

Why is it surprising that Chicago has better food? It's a significantly larger and it's well-known for good food, plus it's cheaper

[Ultramar vistas]

If you practice in NY, I assume that you’re either one of those people that’s from there and literally cannot conceive of existing in another location, or that you didn’t want to risk your OCI spots on a better CoL market.

[Anonymous User]

Why is everyone getting hung up on NYC as the paradigmatic example?

There are firms based in DC, Chicago, and Los Angeles that have satellites out in the (relative) sticks where associates think that just being part of the firm confers the same respect / prestige / work / blah blah whatever as being at the main office.

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

[Anonymous User]

Why is everyone getting hung up on NYC as the paradigmatic example?

There are firms based in DC, Chicago, and Los Angeles that have satellites out in the (relative) sticks where associates think that just being part of the firm confers the same respect / prestige / work / blah blah whatever as being at the main office.

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

Unless the person wanted to jump ship to in house in TX ASAP, wouldn’t they be crazy to take VE over Skadden Houston just based off firm branding alone?

[Anonymous User]

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

A Houston first year has a 20k/year higher take home than the NY first year, and at most national firms is working across offices nowadays anyway.

Also I didn't realize the reason for being more competitive mattered. If we flip a coin and I win my outcome is more prestigious than yours get wrecked.

[Anonymous User]

Why is everyone getting hung up on NYC as the paradigmatic example?

There are firms based in DC, Chicago, and Los Angeles that have satellites out in the (relative) sticks where associates think that just being part of the firm confers the same respect / prestige / work / blah blah whatever as being at the main office.

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

Unless the person wanted to jump ship to in house in TX ASAP, wouldn’t they be crazy to take VE over Skadden Houston just based off firm branding alone?

I doubt it. V&E is god in Texas, but only in Texas.

[Anonymous User]

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

A Houston first year has a 20k/year higher take home than the NY first year, and at most national firms is working across offices nowadays anyway.

Also I didn't realize the reason for being more competitive mattered. If we flip a coin and I win my outcome is more prestigious than yours get wrecked.

Sure, in Houston you'll have more take home pay, but you'll also be living in fking Houston. Different strokes. I hope such a person enjoys humidity, Mexican food, and the Right.

[Anonymous User]

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

A Houston first year has a 20k/year higher take home than the NY first year, and at most national firms is working across offices nowadays anyway.

Also I didn't realize the reason for being more competitive mattered. If we flip a coin and I win my outcome is more prestigious than yours get wrecked.

Sure, in Houston you'll have more take home pay, but you'll also be living in fking Houston. Different strokes. I hope such a person enjoys humidity, Mexican food, and, shall we say, Texas politics. If that's your jam, go for it.

[Anonymous User]

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

A Houston first year has a 20k/year higher take home than the NY first year, and at most national firms is working across offices nowadays anyway.

Also I didn't realize the reason for being more competitive mattered. If we flip a coin and I win my outcome is more prestigious than yours get wrecked.

Sure, in Houston you'll have more take home pay, but you'll also be living in fking Houston. Different strokes. I hope such a person enjoys humidity, Mexican food, and the Right.

If we're doing the stereotype game then you're setting yourself up for some pretty easy rebuttals about life in New York

[Anonymous User]

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

A Houston first year has a 20k/year higher take home than the NY first year, and at most national firms is working across offices nowadays anyway.

Also I didn't realize the reason for being more competitive mattered. If we flip a coin and I win my outcome is more prestigious than yours get wrecked.

Sure, in Houston you'll have more take home pay, but you'll also be living in fking Houston. Different strokes. I hope such a person enjoys humidity, Mexican food, and the Right.

My only point was money is the most prestigious thing there is.

[Anonymous User]

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

A Houston first year has a 20k/year higher take home than the NY first year, and at most national firms is working across offices nowadays anyway.

Also I didn't realize the reason for being more competitive mattered. If we flip a coin and I win my outcome is more prestigious than yours get wrecked.

Sure, in Houston you'll have more take home pay, but you'll also be living in fking Houston. Different strokes. I hope such a person enjoys humidity, Mexican food, and the Right.

My only point was money is the most prestigious thing there is.

And I’m saying there are lots of people who would disagree.

By your logic, it would be smart to join some shrinking V90 firm in the South with minimal deal flow so you can make market and still get home to the suburbs in time for dinner since you only have local and relatively mom-and-pop clients. If that’s your idea of living, Godspeed.

[Anonymous User]

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

A Houston first year has a 20k/year higher take home than the NY first year, and at most national firms is working across offices nowadays anyway.

Also I didn't realize the reason for being more competitive mattered. If we flip a coin and I win my outcome is more prestigious than yours get wrecked.

Sure, in Houston you'll have more take home pay, but you'll also be living in fking Houston. Different strokes. I hope such a person enjoys humidity, Mexican food, and the Right.

My only point was money is the most prestigious thing there is.

And I’m saying there are lots of people who would disagree.

By your logic, it would be smart to join some shrinking V90 firm in the South with minimal deal flow so you can make market and still get home to the suburbs in time for dinner since you only have local and relatively mom-and-pop clients. If that’s your idea of living, Godspeed.

It’s like choosing to go to some non-target school because of some dinky scholarship and a better chance of a high GPA because grades = prestige. That’s so lame.

[Anonymous User]

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

A Houston first year has a 20k/year higher take home than the NY first year, and at most national firms is working across offices nowadays anyway.

Also I didn't realize the reason for being more competitive mattered. If we flip a coin and I win my outcome is more prestigious than yours get wrecked.

Sure, in Houston you'll have more take home pay, but you'll also be living in fking Houston. Different strokes. I hope such a person enjoys humidity, Mexican food, and the Right.

My only point was money is the most prestigious thing there is.

And I’m saying there are lots of people who would disagree.

By your logic, it would be smart to join some shrinking V90 firm in the South with minimal deal flow so you can make market and still get home to the suburbs in time for dinner since you only have local and relatively mom-and-pop clients. If that’s your idea of living, Godspeed.

I mean yeah? As long as the firm is financially stable enough you can get away with that for a couple years and/or have good exit options.

Just don't be like OP and act like you're better than everyone outside of NY because your only source of self esteem is your firm name & city.

Edit: it's actually totally insane to me that you'd unironically work longer hours and make less money just to say you work at a firm with a higher vault ranking. I don't understand who you think you're impressing.

[Anonymous User]

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

A Houston first year has a 20k/year higher take home than the NY first year, and at most national firms is working across offices nowadays anyway.

Also I didn't realize the reason for being more competitive mattered. If we flip a coin and I win my outcome is more prestigious than yours get wrecked.

Sure, in Houston you'll have more take home pay, but you'll also be living in fking Houston. Different strokes. I hope such a person enjoys humidity, Mexican food, and the Right.

My only point was money is the most prestigious thing there is.

And I’m saying there are lots of people who would disagree.

By your logic, it would be smart to join some shrinking V90 firm in the South with minimal deal flow so you can make market and still get home to the suburbs in time for dinner since you only have local and relatively mom-and-pop clients. If that’s your idea of living, Godspeed.

It’s like choosing to go to some non-target school because of some dinky scholarship and a better chance of a high GPA because grades = prestige. That’s so lame.

Grades are way different than money, obviously.

[Anonymous User]

Congratulations!

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the TLS board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the TLS crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

[Anonymous User]

. . . Also, with cross-staffing (especially post-Covid), I know many people who live in, say, a Texas office but work 100% on deals out of the NYC office. So they’re doing literally the same job as an NYC associate, but with 11% higher pay, no face time requirement, and living either in a luxury apartment next to the office or a huge house 20 mins away. If I were an NYC associate on the same deal team, I’d feel pretty damn silly in comparison.

You had me until the end.

Pretty sure that most people living and working in New York City are there because they want to, gasp, be in New York City — and not because they couldn't land the coveted Texas gig.

[hangtime813]

Congratulations!

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the TLS board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the TLS crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

Absolutely accurate. Funny, but alas, so, so true

[nixy]

. . . Also, with cross-staffing (especially post-Covid), I know many people who live in, say, a Texas office but work 100% on deals out of the NYC office. So they’re doing literally the same job as an NYC associate, but with 11% higher pay, no face time requirement, and living either in a luxury apartment next to the office or a huge house 20 mins away. If I were an NYC associate on the same deal team, I’d feel pretty damn silly in comparison.

You had me until the end.

Pretty sure that most people living and working in New York City are there because they want to, gasp, be in New York City — and not because they couldn't land the coveted Texas gig.

I mean, there are definitely people who could get hired in NYC and not Texas, because class size and ties.

But lol just lol at this whole debate.

[Anonymous User]

Congratulations!

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the TLS board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the TLS crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

Lol

[Robot]

And selective smaller satellite offices should not be confused for a prestigious posting. Sure, Skadden has a 30-person Houston office that probably is more selective, but only because they value local ties much, much more and prioritize personal fit vastly more so than, say, the NY office, because everyone in Houston is working on top of each other and are naturally bound to be in each other's business.

A Houston first year has a 20k/year higher take home than the NY first year, and at most national firms is working across offices nowadays anyway.

Also I didn't realize the reason for being more competitive mattered. If we flip a coin and I win my outcome is more prestigious than yours get wrecked.

Sure, in Houston you'll have more take home pay, but you'll also be living in fking Houston. Different strokes. I hope such a person enjoys humidity, Mexican food, and the Right.

My only point was money is the most prestigious thing there is.

And I’m saying there are lots of people who would disagree.

By your logic, it would be smart to join some shrinking V90 firm in the South with minimal deal flow so you can make market and still get home to the suburbs in time for dinner since you only have local and relatively mom-and-pop clients. If that’s your idea of living, Godspeed.

The top firms in attractive smaller markets are some of the most desirable jobs in the country so I don’t think that reductio really works unless you’re already a thoroughgoing NYC supremacist

Also lol at taking a pay cut because people will be impressed that you work sociopathic hours for Walmart instead of reasonable hours for HEB. If you like NYC, good for you, work there, but you’re deluding yourself if you think it’s more “prestigious” to work at Skadden NY than Yetter Coleman or whatever.

[Anonymous User]

. . . Also, with cross-staffing (especially post-Covid), I know many people who live in, say, a Texas office but work 100% on deals out of the NYC office. So they’re doing literally the same job as an NYC associate, but with 11% higher pay, no face time requirement, and living either in a luxury apartment next to the office or a huge house 20 mins away. If I were an NYC associate on the same deal team, I’d feel pretty damn silly in comparison.

You had me until the end.

Pretty sure that most people living and working in New York City are there because they want to, gasp, be in New York City — and not because they couldn't land the coveted Texas gig.

I mean, there are definitely people who could get hired in NYC and not Texas, because class size and ties.

But lol just lol at this whole debate.

Oh I don't disagree, and I don't think I said anything to that effect. Most law students aren't weighing one or the other. Hell, it's possible that nearly every law student in the country would strike out if they tried to land a firm job in Des Moines, IA. So what? My point is that Anywhere, TX and New York are going to be night-and-day different (even in one of Texas's major metro areas).

One is a growing legal market with a lower cost of living, with more firms moving in. Comparatively, though, it has fewer firms and fewer biglaw attorneys practicing there.

The other is the largest city in the country (and is arguably the "capital of the world" insofar as such a thing exists), with the largest legal and financial market in the country, and headquarters to many of the country's elite law firms.

I'll let everyone guess as to which is which...