How do I choose: Skadden vs. DPW vs. LW vs. Cleary vs. STB Forum

[Anonymous User]

Reports of Cleary's death have been greatly exaggerated around here.

Look at league tables, chambers, etc. and it still hangs with the pack of NY white shoes that are not quite WLRK/CSM/S&C (and there are a handful of folks every year who have offers at the latter two who turn them down for Cleary). Like some of the other old school shops, there are still plenty of partners who take pride in training associates rather than relying on hordes of warm lateral bodies (I think the same could be said for DPW and STB). I was receiving recruiting emails for Latham and a large Chicago firm in my first year at Cleary and continue to get them regularly. These places do their fair share of mega deals but they are just run on a different business model that isn't necessarily to the associate's benefit (maybe unless you know you're going to bill 2300+ every year). Of course all of these places will squeeze you very hard, just a matter of how you can best tolerate being squeezed.

I'm also skeptical that Cleary is extra school snobby relative to similar NYC places, where Harvard/Columbia/NYU tend to dominate. Every class has a good handful of top students from non-T14s (especially the local schools), and the lawyers from these schools do their part to advocate for a few more every year.

/anon because butthurt Cleary associate

did u even read the data you're telling us to cite? it's not band 1 in corporate.

[Anonymous User]

Reports of Cleary's death have been greatly exaggerated around here.

Look at league tables, chambers, etc. and it still hangs with the pack of NY white shoes that are not quite WLRK/CSM/S&C (and there are a handful of folks every year who have offers at the latter two who turn them down for Cleary). Like some of the other old school shops, there are still plenty of partners who take pride in training associates rather than relying on hordes of warm lateral bodies (I think the same could be said for DPW and STB). I was receiving recruiting emails for Latham and a large Chicago firm in my first year at Cleary and continue to get them regularly. These places do their fair share of mega deals but they are just run on a different business model that isn't necessarily to the associate's benefit (maybe unless you know you're going to bill 2300+ every year). Of course all of these places will squeeze you very hard, just a matter of how you can best tolerate being squeezed.

I'm also skeptical that Cleary is extra school snobby relative to similar NYC places, where Harvard/Columbia/NYU tend to dominate. Every class has a good handful of top students from non-T14s (especially the local schools), and the lawyers from these schools do their part to advocate for a few more every year.

/anon because butthurt Cleary associate

did u even read the data you're telling us to cite? it's not band 1 in corporate.

Also not even near the top of any league tables

[Anonymous User]

Reports of Cleary's death have been greatly exaggerated around here.

Look at league tables, chambers, etc. and it still hangs with the pack of NY white shoes that are not quite WLRK/CSM/S&C (and there are a handful of folks every year who have offers at the latter two who turn them down for Cleary). Like some of the other old school shops, there are still plenty of partners who take pride in training associates rather than relying on hordes of warm lateral bodies (I think the same could be said for DPW and STB). I was receiving recruiting emails for Latham and a large Chicago firm in my first year at Cleary and continue to get them regularly. These places do their fair share of mega deals but they are just run on a different business model that isn't necessarily to the associate's benefit (maybe unless you know you're going to bill 2300+ every year). Of course all of these places will squeeze you very hard, just a matter of how you can best tolerate being squeezed.

I'm also skeptical that Cleary is extra school snobby relative to similar NYC places, where Harvard/Columbia/NYU tend to dominate. Every class has a good handful of top students from non-T14s (especially the local schools), and the lawyers from these schools do their part to advocate for a few more every year.

/anon because butthurt Cleary associate

did u even read the data you're telling us to cite? it's not band 1 in corporate.

Also not even near the top of any league tables

Not trying to spur any shitstorm, but isn't Cleary ranked top 5 and 10 on some of the metrics in the leagues tables?

#10 in terms of volume (https://www.privatebankerinternational. ... -revealed/).

#5 global M&A (https://www.mergermarket.com/assets/Mer ... Q42020.pdf), although Cleary is more of an international firm than its peers.

Genuinely curious as to which of these leaguetables metrics is determinative, if such a concept is even possible.

[Anonymous User]

Reports of Cleary's death have been greatly exaggerated around here.

Look at league tables, chambers, etc. and it still hangs with the pack of NY white shoes that are not quite WLRK/CSM/S&C (and there are a handful of folks every year who have offers at the latter two who turn them down for Cleary). Like some of the other old school shops, there are still plenty of partners who take pride in training associates rather than relying on hordes of warm lateral bodies (I think the same could be said for DPW and STB). I was receiving recruiting emails for Latham and a large Chicago firm in my first year at Cleary and continue to get them regularly. These places do their fair share of mega deals but they are just run on a different business model that isn't necessarily to the associate's benefit (maybe unless you know you're going to bill 2300+ every year). Of course all of these places will squeeze you very hard, just a matter of how you can best tolerate being squeezed.

I'm also skeptical that Cleary is extra school snobby relative to similar NYC places, where Harvard/Columbia/NYU tend to dominate. Every class has a good handful of top students from non-T14s (especially the local schools), and the lawyers from these schools do their part to advocate for a few more every year.

/anon because butthurt Cleary associate

did u even read the data you're telling us to cite? it's not band 1 in corporate.

Also not even near the top of any league tables

Not trying to spur any shitstorm, but isn't Cleary ranked top 5 and 10 on some of the metrics in the leagues tables?

#10 in terms of volume (https://www.privatebankerinternational. ... -revealed/).

#5 global M&A (https://www.mergermarket.com/assets/Mer ... Q42020.pdf), although Cleary is more of an international firm than its peers.

Genuinely curious as to which of these leaguetables metrics is determinative, if such a concept is even possible.

Also looks like they're number one by volume issuer's counsel for US corporate and Global bonds for Q1 2021 (https://www.troutman.com/images/content ... Ranked.pdf). Number one being commonly understood as "near the top"

[Anonymous User]

Random non-Cleary anon. I get the sense that Cleary does pretty much only international work, and does it pretty well. I've never seen Cleary on any of my (US/NA-centric) deals, ever, but I've seen pretty much everyone else at least once or twice.

[Anonymous User]

Reports of Cleary's death have been greatly exaggerated around here.

Look at league tables, chambers, etc. and it still hangs with the pack of NY white shoes that are not quite WLRK/CSM/S&C (and there are a handful of folks every year who have offers at the latter two who turn them down for Cleary). Like some of the other old school shops, there are still plenty of partners who take pride in training associates rather than relying on hordes of warm lateral bodies (I think the same could be said for DPW and STB). I was receiving recruiting emails for Latham and a large Chicago firm in my first year at Cleary and continue to get them regularly. These places do their fair share of mega deals but they are just run on a different business model that isn't necessarily to the associate's benefit (maybe unless you know you're going to bill 2300+ every year). Of course all of these places will squeeze you very hard, just a matter of how you can best tolerate being squeezed.

I'm also skeptical that Cleary is extra school snobby relative to similar NYC places, where Harvard/Columbia/NYU tend to dominate. Every class has a good handful of top students from non-T14s (especially the local schools), and the lawyers from these schools do their part to advocate for a few more every year.

/anon because butthurt Cleary associate

did u even read the data you're telling us to cite? it's not band 1 in corporate.

Also not even near the top of any league tables

Not trying to spur any shitstorm, but isn't Cleary ranked top 5 and 10 on some of the metrics in the leagues tables?

#10 in terms of volume (https://www.privatebankerinternational. ... -revealed/).

#5 global M&A (https://www.mergermarket.com/assets/Mer ... Q42020.pdf), although Cleary is more of an international firm than its peers.

Genuinely curious as to which of these leaguetables metrics is determinative, if such a concept is even possible.

Also looks like they're number one by volume issuer's counsel for US corporate and Global bonds for Q1 2021 (https://www.troutman.com/images/content ... Ranked.pdf). Number one being commonly understood as "near the top"

I’ll certainly admit to them performing better than I had originally perceived—however, the one table they topped was Q1 bonds for 2021 and looking at all the tables in the aggregate arguably strengthened the case for Latham outperforming Cleary generally.

I guess go to Cleary if international bonds are your thing though?

[Anonymous User]

STB associate and want to speak to your point on centralized staffing.

I too wanted centralized staffing but after spending more time with it I think its kind of a wash whether a plus of minus. If you're liked, you'll get more work than you can handle and you won't generally be able to refuse it; the ability to turn down work in a place like KE is much greater than a STB where you can get staffed to matters you have no interest on and be unable to turn them down. Centralized staffing gives you less control of your career early on; if you're bad and not liked, people will refuse you through central staffing and you will struggle to end up on new matters particularly during slow times. Central staffing doesn't save an undesirable associate from the road to low hours and then termination.

"I really like STB & DPW's centralized staffing model. Some of the partners and associates I have spoken with have talked about how it's good for promoting diversity & equity. I am a POC and have worked in "entrepreneurial" offices before where white bosses "click" with white associates and give them all the good work assignments.". Just to be frank, if a partner doesn't 'click' or like you, centralized staffing won't save you and this isn't really a STB specific comment just more of a comment on centralized staffing; you'll be pushed down to the least desirable matters for the partners who have the least say in who gets staffed.

[falv2023]

This is your life--you are in a very lucky position to have this many offers from such prestigious firms. Many people only get one offer from this set of firms, and some get none. I imagine it might be difficult to pick, but at some point, this really comes down to you personally. Please remember: THEY ALL PAY THE SAME (generally speaking). Pick the one where you think you personally will be happiest and most successful. No point in going to an ultra-prestigious firm if it destroys your mental health and causes you to burn out after 2 years. I am very excited to work at my slightly lower-tier firm (which pays the same as these ones lol) where everyone seemed genuinely happy with their work and lifestyle. The only thing that matters is where you individually are most likely to succeed. If you're asking strangers for advice on here, you might not be thinking hard enough about what you individually want out of your law firm experience. It's really easy to say "X is more prestigious so go there", but that really ignores the fact that not everyone thrives equally at every firm.