HLS EIP 2021 pt. 2 Forum

[Anonymous User]

General ~vibes~ I'm getting from friend group:

1. DC "bloodbath" can't really be called that anymore since it happens every year. If you're lit-only and bidding on small summer classes at great firms in DC, it'll be tough unless (and maybe even if) you're LR / magna. Plenty of my friends have had to "trade down" to stay in DC or have been saved by bidding NY alongside.

2. Not going to get into OCS's somewhat silly "virtual H"-style quantification, but URM status generally underrated in its impact these days. Absolutely not a normative statement here, it just is what it is.

3. I'm sorry, but don't fuck up NY bidding and you can walk into a job from HLS, especially corporate. Friends I know who barely attended Zoom School last year are popping bottles with multiple offers.

[Anonymous User]

General ~vibes~ I'm getting from friend group:

1. DC "bloodbath" can't really be called that anymore since it happens every year. If you're lit-only and bidding on small summer classes at great firms in DC, it'll be tough unless (and maybe even if) you're LR / magna. Plenty of my friends have had to "trade down" to stay in DC or have been saved by bidding NY alongside.

2. Not going to get into OCS's somewhat silly "virtual H"-style quantification, but URM status generally underrated in its impact these days. Absolutely not a normative statement here, it just is what it is.

3. I'm sorry, but don't fuck up NY bidding and you can walk into a job from HLS, especially corporate. Friends I know who barely attended Zoom School last year are popping bottles with multiple offers.

Would love to hear a little more on the general take aways/what you've seen. I feel like I don't have exposure to the class to get any perspectives

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone heard from Latham Boston or Ropes & Gray Boston?

[Anonymous User]

General ~vibes~ I'm getting from friend group:

1. DC "bloodbath" can't really be called that anymore since it happens every year. If you're lit-only and bidding on small summer classes at great firms in DC, it'll be tough unless (and maybe even if) you're LR / magna. Plenty of my friends have had to "trade down" to stay in DC or have been saved by bidding NY alongside.

2. Not going to get into OCS's somewhat silly "virtual H"-style quantification, but URM status generally underrated in its impact these days. Absolutely not a normative statement here, it just is what it is.

3. I'm sorry, but don't fuck up NY bidding and you can walk into a job from HLS, especially corporate. Friends I know who barely attended Zoom School last year are popping bottles with multiple offers.

Would love to hear a little more on the general take aways/what you've seen. I feel like I don't have exposure to the class to get any perspectives

Sure, quoted OP, hit me with any questions.

At the end of the day, median to just below (perhaps well below) median at HLS is going to be just fine for not striking out given NY / home-market (assuming home is not CA/DC) bidding at a reasonable and wide swath of firms. The NY classes are huge and the HLS brand carries a lot.

It carries a lot less in DC / certain CA firms where the classes are smaller, just because of pure numbers. Think about it, 50-60 kids a grade are going to be on track for magna, a couple dozen more are within shouting distance, HLR is going to be concentrated but not exclusively within that group, and a significant number of all the above are going to have a URM boost. That population is going to be biased towards lit and bidding at the same firms, and CB rates from screeners are 20-30% at best. All that adds up to even "stars" who have magna-ish but not bona fide feeder / Sears grades having less-than-perfect CB records, and bidding strategy aggression becomes a lot more sensitive for them in DC. Yes, some will have WE to differentiate or great interviewing or some other hook, but the numbers are actually fairly brutal / lead to some random and haphazard results, and I think students aren't fully prepared for that level of crapshoot-ness at some competitive firms.

[Anonymous User]

General ~vibes~ I'm getting from friend group:

1. DC "bloodbath" can't really be called that anymore since it happens every year. If you're lit-only and bidding on small summer classes at great firms in DC, it'll be tough unless (and maybe even if) you're LR / magna. Plenty of my friends have had to "trade down" to stay in DC or have been saved by bidding NY alongside.

2. Not going to get into OCS's somewhat silly "virtual H"-style quantification, but URM status generally underrated in its impact these days. Absolutely not a normative statement here, it just is what it is.

3. I'm sorry, but don't fuck up NY bidding and you can walk into a job from HLS, especially corporate. Friends I know who barely attended Zoom School last year are popping bottles with multiple offers.

Would love to hear a little more on the general take aways/what you've seen. I feel like I don't have exposure to the class to get any perspectives

Sure, quoted OP, hit me with any questions.

At the end of the day, median to just below (perhaps well below) median at HLS is going to be just fine for not striking out given NY / home-market (assuming home is not CA/DC) bidding at a reasonable and wide swath of firms. The NY classes are huge and the HLS brand carries a lot.

It carries a lot less in DC / certain CA firms where the classes are smaller, just because of pure numbers. Think about it, 50-60 kids a grade are going to be on track for magna, a couple dozen more are within shouting distance, HLR is going to be concentrated but not exclusively within that group, and a significant number of all the above are going to have a URM boost. That population is going to be biased towards lit and bidding at the same firms, and CB rates from screeners are 20-30% at best. All that adds up to even "stars" who have magna-ish but not bona fide feeder / Sears grades having less-than-perfect CB records, and bidding strategy aggression becomes a lot more sensitive for them in DC. Yes, some will have WE to differentiate or great interviewing or some other hook, but the numbers are actually fairly brutal / lead to some random and haphazard results, and I think students aren't fully prepared for that level of crapshoot-ness at some competitive firms.

Not the same as OP but "Sears" grades? I'm a transfer so def not versed in some of the colloquialisms and feel like a low key fool

But yeah, outside of that, completely makes sense! I was almost completely NYC centric and had what I felt like was a good level of success, even as a transfer without any HLS grades, no HLR and no URM boost

[Anonymous User]

General ~vibes~ I'm getting from friend group:

1. DC "bloodbath" can't really be called that anymore since it happens every year. If you're lit-only and bidding on small summer classes at great firms in DC, it'll be tough unless (and maybe even if) you're LR / magna. Plenty of my friends have had to "trade down" to stay in DC or have been saved by bidding NY alongside.

2. Not going to get into OCS's somewhat silly "virtual H"-style quantification, but URM status generally underrated in its impact these days. Absolutely not a normative statement here, it just is what it is.

3. I'm sorry, but don't fuck up NY bidding and you can walk into a job from HLS, especially corporate. Friends I know who barely attended Zoom School last year are popping bottles with multiple offers.

Would love to hear a little more on the general take aways/what you've seen. I feel like I don't have exposure to the class to get any perspectives

Sure, quoted OP, hit me with any questions.

At the end of the day, median to just below (perhaps well below) median at HLS is going to be just fine for not striking out given NY / home-market (assuming home is not CA/DC) bidding at a reasonable and wide swath of firms. The NY classes are huge and the HLS brand carries a lot.

It carries a lot less in DC / certain CA firms where the classes are smaller, just because of pure numbers. Think about it, 50-60 kids a grade are going to be on track for magna, a couple dozen more are within shouting distance, HLR is going to be concentrated but not exclusively within that group, and a significant number of all the above are going to have a URM boost. That population is going to be biased towards lit and bidding at the same firms, and CB rates from screeners are 20-30% at best. All that adds up to even "stars" who have magna-ish but not bona fide feeder / Sears grades having less-than-perfect CB records, and bidding strategy aggression becomes a lot more sensitive for them in DC. Yes, some will have WE to differentiate or great interviewing or some other hook, but the numbers are actually fairly brutal / lead to some random and haphazard results, and I think students aren't fully prepared for that level of crapshoot-ness at some competitive firms.

Not the same as OP but "Sears" grades? I'm a transfer so def not versed in some of the colloquialisms and feel like a low key fool

But yeah, outside of that, completely makes sense! I was almost completely NYC centric and had what I felt like was a good level of success, even as a transfer without any HLS grades, no HLR and no URM boost

Congrats to you! Sears is the prize given to the top 2 1L and 2L students every year (only former is relevant). Generally that level or feeder / guaranteed “good” COA is what’s needed to “sweep” in competitive markets, though I think conventional wisdom pegs the level slightly below that (at, say, magna-ish plus HLR) based off what I think are optimistic anecdata.

[Anonymous User]

General ~vibes~ I'm getting from friend group:

1. DC "bloodbath" can't really be called that anymore since it happens every year. If you're lit-only and bidding on small summer classes at great firms in DC, it'll be tough unless (and maybe even if) you're LR / magna. Plenty of my friends have had to "trade down" to stay in DC or have been saved by bidding NY alongside.

2. Not going to get into OCS's somewhat silly "virtual H"-style quantification, but URM status generally underrated in its impact these days. Absolutely not a normative statement here, it just is what it is.

3. I'm sorry, but don't fuck up NY bidding and you can walk into a job from HLS, especially corporate. Friends I know who barely attended Zoom School last year are popping bottles with multiple offers.

Would love to hear a little more on the general take aways/what you've seen. I feel like I don't have exposure to the class to get any perspectives

Sure, quoted OP, hit me with any questions.

At the end of the day, median to just below (perhaps well below) median at HLS is going to be just fine for not striking out given NY / home-market (assuming home is not CA/DC) bidding at a reasonable and wide swath of firms. The NY classes are huge and the HLS brand carries a lot.

It carries a lot less in DC / certain CA firms where the classes are smaller, just because of pure numbers. Think about it, 50-60 kids a grade are going to be on track for magna, a couple dozen more are within shouting distance, HLR is going to be concentrated but not exclusively within that group, and a significant number of all the above are going to have a URM boost. That population is going to be biased towards lit and bidding at the same firms, and CB rates from screeners are 20-30% at best. All that adds up to even "stars" who have magna-ish but not bona fide feeder / Sears grades having less-than-perfect CB records, and bidding strategy aggression becomes a lot more sensitive for them in DC. Yes, some will have WE to differentiate or great interviewing or some other hook, but the numbers are actually fairly brutal / lead to some random and haphazard results, and I think students aren't fully prepared for that level of crapshoot-ness at some competitive firms.

Not the same as OP but "Sears" grades? I'm a transfer so def not versed in some of the colloquialisms and feel like a low key fool

But yeah, outside of that, completely makes sense! I was almost completely NYC centric and had what I felt like was a good level of success, even as a transfer without any HLS grades, no HLR and no URM boost

Congrats to you! Sears is the prize given to the top 2 1L and 2L students every year (only former is relevant). Generally that level or feeder / guaranteed “good” COA is what’s needed to “sweep” in competitive markets, though I think conventional wisdom pegs the level slightly below that (at, say, magna-ish plus HLR) based off what I think are optimistic anecdata.

Different anon, but I think the previous anon is pretty spot on. If you're thinking of firms like Wilmer in DC, who have 30 SA spots nationwide, it is pretty insane to think that you'll get a callback without magna / close to magna + HLR. I don't think OCS does a great job of preparing students for this. I ended up with a great DC outcome with top third grades, and in hindsight i have no idea why I thought that jenner, wilmer, W&C, etc. were ever in the picture for me. Elite firms in DC probably need 7-8Hs for one to have a fighting shot, 9-10Hs for a great shot. NYC you can sweep from HLS, besides Wachtell, with 5Hs. And of course, this is focusing on the higher ranked firms. You can do fine in DC if you decide to drop down to some lower firms and stuff.

[Anonymous User]

DC EIP interviewer here. DC is very competitive in general. I'll also say that we had a very, very strong group of candidates this year--unclear if HLS gave out more Hs/DSs than usual or a higher proportion of top candidates were DC-focused, but it was noticeable, so OCS's models might be a bit out of date. (They lock the alums out of these pages on the website, but I vaguely recall a chart showing numbers of Hs? Those might not be fully accurate anymore.)

Pushing back on one thing from above, HLR is a nice plus factor but no more than that. By which I mean, all else completely equal, it might get you the nod, but it won't on its own put you above someone with better grades. (BSA is similar, maybe slightly less, though they tend to interview well. I have yet to see an HLABer.) HLR + best brief + DSes LRW does tell me you're a good writer, though, which definitely counts for something.

At bottom, grades and interviews (demonstrating knowledge of and particularized interest in the firm) are what matter most. Students, even those with wonderful grades on HLR who were great in interviews, probably don't make the callback cut if they say they want to focus on a practice area that we don't do (and certainly won't get an offer if they say it at their callback). A really truly fantastic interview can make up for grades a little below our norm, but even a Sears prize won't get you an offer if you bomb the interviews. (Granted, Sears winners get more leeway!)

Also, to those of you who transferred, you are likely being compared against your former classmates rather than your new ones just because that's the transcript we have to work with. That makes tons of sense from the chair I'm sitting in now, but I would not necessarily have expected it when I was in your place.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks to the EIP interviewer for the notes. I almost start to wonder if, given "adequate" grades, the long-heralded advice that "networking doesn't matter if youre at HYS because I know John Doe who didn't reach out at all and got W&C / MTO / etc." is not as operative as it used to be. Like yeah, a couple informational interviews won't guarantee anyone a callback, but I think demonstrated interest / saying the "right things" beyond collegiality, etc. might start to make a difference if screeners are going to continue to have low callback rates and are going to differentiate otherwise comparable candidates.

Like everyone brings up the whole "don't mention a practice area that we don't do" point, but how many DC lit candidates are really saying they're super interested in idk maritime when all the DC firms do appellate (obviously everyone with the grades kinda wants this but no one says it), some commercial, some reg, some antitrust, etc.? Seems like more of a blunder to avoid than a real positive differentiator. Similar point goes for free-market versus not. But I do think having nameable contacts and "speaking the language" of a firm might be somewhat important in determining particularized interest, because aside from the trial- or appellate-focused boutiques, none of the big DC biglaw firms seem to be so facially differentiated that you just absolutely have to say one particular obvious thing or you won't get a callback. Even Googling your interviewers...like what are you going to find out, the Associate is super smart and clerked before going to the firm and the Partner has done a bunch of commercial lit and some appellate? Ok.

[Anonymous User]

Like everyone brings up the whole "don't mention a practice area that we don't do" point, but how many DC lit candidates are really saying they're super interested in idk maritime when all the DC firms do appellate (obviously everyone with the grades kinda wants this but no one says it), some commercial, some reg, some antitrust, etc.? Seems like more of a blunder to avoid than a real positive differentiator. Similar point goes for free-market versus not. But I do think having nameable contacts and "speaking the language" of a firm might be somewhat important in determining particularized interest, because aside from the trial- or appellate-focused boutiques, none of the big DC biglaw firms seem to be so facially differentiated that you just absolutely have to say one particular obvious thing or you won't get a callback. Even Googling your interviewers...like what are you going to find out, the Associate is super smart and clerked before going to the firm and the Partner has done a bunch of commercial lit and some appellate? Ok.

EIP interviewer again. Going broad to avoid outing myself, but re: practice areas you're wrong and falling into the very trap I'm talking about--grouping "all DC firms" together. Not all DC firms actually do appellate, a good number of DC firms--including some of the really desirable ones--do not do "regulatory work" (which is also not a thing in and of itself, name a practice area, but a number of firms don't do anything that would fall under that category), most DC firms don't have robust corporate practices (you'd be surprised what students say in interviews!), I don't think anyone does "international law" (I've heard it), though a lot of firms do international arbitration. Students, even smart ones from HLS, make these mistakes, and it really catches in the ear of interviewers.

[Anonymous User]

Like everyone brings up the whole "don't mention a practice area that we don't do" point, but how many DC lit candidates are really saying they're super interested in idk maritime when all the DC firms do appellate (obviously everyone with the grades kinda wants this but no one says it), some commercial, some reg, some antitrust, etc.? Seems like more of a blunder to avoid than a real positive differentiator. Similar point goes for free-market versus not. But I do think having nameable contacts and "speaking the language" of a firm might be somewhat important in determining particularized interest, because aside from the trial- or appellate-focused boutiques, none of the big DC biglaw firms seem to be so facially differentiated that you just absolutely have to say one particular obvious thing or you won't get a callback. Even Googling your interviewers...like what are you going to find out, the Associate is super smart and clerked before going to the firm and the Partner has done a bunch of commercial lit and some appellate? Ok.

Wow if this is how you actually approach interviews, it shows you are not very good at it.

[Anonymous User]

Like everyone brings up the whole "don't mention a practice area that we don't do" point, but how many DC lit candidates are really saying they're super interested in idk maritime when all the DC firms do appellate (obviously everyone with the grades kinda wants this but no one says it), some commercial, some reg, some antitrust, etc.? Seems like more of a blunder to avoid than a real positive differentiator. Similar point goes for free-market versus not. But I do think having nameable contacts and "speaking the language" of a firm might be somewhat important in determining particularized interest, because aside from the trial- or appellate-focused boutiques, none of the big DC biglaw firms seem to be so facially differentiated that you just absolutely have to say one particular obvious thing or you won't get a callback. Even Googling your interviewers...like what are you going to find out, the Associate is super smart and clerked before going to the firm and the Partner has done a bunch of commercial lit and some appellate? Ok.

Wow if this is how you actually approach interviews, it shows you are not very good at it.

Quoted anon. I don’t think I said anything that objectionable or wacky? And for the record I’ve absolutely ripped through a couple cycles in a row, but I don’t feel like I know everything, therefore my participation in this discussion.

[albinododobird]

I don't know exactly what people mean by "sweep," but even if you have excellent grades, you should not expect to be getting callbacks from every firm you screen with, even if you're only bidding in New York. Yes, the summer classes are big, but it's not like any of these firms are having trouble filling their classes. Interviewers might not give you a callback if you didn't connect with them, even if you have 8+ Hs (though I think some firms do basically give everyone who meets a certain grade threshold callbacks). It is true that you can end up with multiple offers even if your grades are around median, but to me that mostly shows that the NY market is somewhat less grade-sensitive than others.

All this is to say: if you didn't "sweep" your NY bids and you have good grades, it's not because there's something wrong with you.

[Anonymous User]

This is kinda a weird question - but anecdotally, how many offers do HLS students commonly get if they blanket NYC and have around median grades.

[Anonymous User]

This is kinda a weird question - but anecdotally, how many offers do HLS students commonly get if they blanket NYC and have around median grades.

I mean there's several factors at play (e.g. interviewing proficiency, firm selectivity, etc) but 6-8 is the average # of offers.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone heard from Ropes & Gray (Boston)?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a rising 2L at HLS who just completed EIP, and here are my results and take on this recruiting cycle and EIP.

I came into EIP with the following profile:

1. Median Grades
2. Not URM
3. Not KJD
4. Ties to NY and DC
5. Desire to practice corporate/transactional law

I bid on NY and Chicago firms and added interviews with DC firms during the EIP add period. Overall, I did screener interviews with 30+ firms across all three markets.

My results were as follows:

New York
-1 offer from a V20
-1 offer from a V30
-1 offer from a V50
-1 offer from a V100
-1 offer from an unranked boutique
-Still waiting to hear back from a V10

Chicago
-1 offer from a V10
-3 offers from V20s
-1 offer from a V100
-Still waiting to hear back from several firms

DC
-2 offers from V100s

I have a couple takeaways for future HLS students based on my experience.

1. Chicago is not as competitive or grades selective for HLS students as other small markets, such as DC. If you can convince Chicago firms that you truly want to be in Chicago, then top Chicago firms will give you serious consideration, even if you have median grades or weak Midwestern ties. For this reason, more HLS students should consider Chicago.

2. While NY ties definitely aren't essential for breaking into the NY market, NY firms do care about NY ties to a greater degree than most people realize. During my callbacks, multiple NY firms asked me different variations of "Why NY?" so make sure you have a reasonable answer to this question.

3. Getting offers from DC firms is possible with median grades at HLS provided that you bid on and interview with less competitive DC firms and are a decent interviewee. Therefore, if your grades aren't spectacular, then you should interview with firms like K&L Gates rather than Covington, Hogan Lovells, or WilmerHale.

4. Good interviewing skills can go a long way, especially for HLS students with median grades. I don't have the highest EQ or the best social skills, but I practiced interviewing a lot before EIP, and there's no doubt that this practice helped me a ton during EIP. During my screener interviews, multiple interviewers gave me callbacks in the middle of the interviews on the spot, and during callbacks, two interviewers told me I was one of the most polished interviewees they had spoken to during this recruiting cycle. Therefore, make sure you practice interviewing prior to EIP.

5. While strong interview skills are important, not every interview you do will go perfectly. Even if you practice interviewing a lot, you will still have some interviews that don't go as well as you'd wish. However, you should practice interviewing enough to minimize the number of imperfect interviews you have. Every day during EIP week, I had 7 or 8 screener interviews, and 1 interview each day was a flop. Each time one of these occurred, I always took a deep breath and recovered on the next one.

6. Staying in touch with firms that you failed to get screener interviews with during the bidding process can yield positive results. For example, I did not get a screener interview with a V20 that I bid on, so I stayed in touch with the firm's recruiting team, and they ended up giving me a callback interview, even though I never did a screener interview with the firm. I ultimately got an offer from this firm and am seriously considering this offer. Therefore, stay in touch with firms that you fail to get a screener with during the bidding process.

7. There is some degree of randomness during EIP. While your grades, past work experience, and interviewing skills will generally be predictive of your EIP results, sometimes your results will be random. For example I got a couple callbacks from firms after I bombed the screener interviews, and I failed to get callbacks from firms after I did really well on screener interviews. Therefore, don't take it personally if you encounter this randomness.

8. Understanding the difference between various corporate and transactional practice areas and demonstrating a genuine interest in a specific transactional practice area will make you stand out compared to other interviewees. During my interviews, I expressed a genuine interest in a specific transactional practice area, and I'm sure doing so helped me obtain offers from selective firms. Therefore, make sure you take the time to understand the difference between M&A, capital markets, finance, investment funds, banking, and other transactional practice areas.

9. At the same time, telling firms that you want broad, generalist corporate training will increase your odds of getting an offer. Therefore, you should say, "I want to practice X, bit I also want to be a well-rounded lawyer and get exposure across different corporate practice areas."

10. Always send thank you emails to interviewers after your interviews. OCS recommends that you don't send these thank you emails, but I think they're wrong, and I truly belive I got some callbacks from firms after my interviews went poorly because I sent thank you emails.

11. Lastly, listen to OCS. Nine times out of ten, their advice is spot on, so make sure you meet with them multiple times before EIP to review your bid list, do mock interviews, and get general advice.

Overall, EIP went well for most HLS students this year, and I wish future HLS students the best of luck on their job search process.

[albinododobird]

This is kinda a weird question - but anecdotally, how many offers do HLS students commonly get if they blanket NYC and have around median grades.

I mean there's several factors at play (e.g. interviewing proficiency, firm selectivity, etc) but 6-8 is the average # of offers.

That’s a pretty typical # of callbacks, and almost no one will have a 100% callback conversion rate. 3-4 offers more like it.

[Anonymous User]

Like everyone brings up the whole "don't mention a practice area that we don't do" point, but how many DC lit candidates are really saying they're super interested in idk maritime when all the DC firms do appellate (obviously everyone with the grades kinda wants this but no one says it), some commercial, some reg, some antitrust, etc.? Seems like more of a blunder to avoid than a real positive differentiator. Similar point goes for free-market versus not. But I do think having nameable contacts and "speaking the language" of a firm might be somewhat important in determining particularized interest, because aside from the trial- or appellate-focused boutiques, none of the big DC biglaw firms seem to be so facially differentiated that you just absolutely have to say one particular obvious thing or you won't get a callback. Even Googling your interviewers...like what are you going to find out, the Associate is super smart and clerked before going to the firm and the Partner has done a bunch of commercial lit and some appellate? Ok.

EIP interviewer again. Going broad to avoid outing myself, but re: practice areas you're wrong and falling into the very trap I'm talking about--grouping "all DC firms" together. Not all DC firms actually do appellate, a good number of DC firms--including some of the really desirable ones--do not do "regulatory work" (which is also not a thing in and of itself, name a practice area, but a number of firms don't do anything that would fall under that category), most DC firms don't have robust corporate practices (you'd be surprised what students say in interviews!), I don't think anyone does "international law" (I've heard it), though a lot of firms do international arbitration. Students, even smart ones from HLS, make these mistakes, and it really catches in the ear of interviewers.

Fair enough points. To mitigate, I doubt *most* DC candidates (a) will voice their interest in appellate even if true due to how it comes across, (b) will be that corp-leaning, or (c) will be interested in int'l in the first place. Though I certainly believe there's a critical mass of candidates who make some of these "mistakes" to validate what you've heard. I still think that, removing such applicants, there's enough people to sift through that light networking, even at an HYS where you don't *need* to do any to land a (perhaps great) DC job, could differentiate some candidates (either through direct recognition or by saying the right things at a particular firm).