What Matters More-- My Loan Balance or My Sanity? Forum

[nixy]

I was not talking to you.

That doesn't mean they can't comment on your opinion, dude. Either ignore their comment or respond to the substance, but that you didn't think you were talking to them is irrelevant.

[Idontwanttomakeaname]

I was not talking to you.

That doesn't mean they can't comment on your opinion, dude. Either ignore their comment or respond to the substance, but that you didn't think you were talking to them is irrelevant.

Please do not feed the trolls.

[CanadianWolf]

OP, have you spoken with a senior associate about your feeling of being overwhelmed ?

Everyone encounters something similar to what you are experiencing. Ask others in your firm how they handle the constant pressure.

It is important for you to understand that others have, or are undergoing, similar stressful feelings at your firm.

Ask for advice.

P.S. Do not share that you are thinking of leaving the firm because you want others to invest in your success.

Also, consider contacting law school classmates who are in biglaw & ask for advice.

Maintain a healthy diet, avoid alcohol.

Let your therapist know the true extent of your state of mind--that you are feeling overwhelmed & need some practical suggestions on how to handle the constant stress now.

[Anonymous User]

OP, have you spoken with a senior associate about your feeling of being overwhelmed ?

Everyone encounters something similar to what you are experiencing. Ask others in your firm how they handle the constant pressure.

It is important for you to understand that others have, or are undergoing, similar stressful feelings at your firm.

Ask for advice.

P.S. Do not share that you are thinking of leaving the firm because you want others to invest in your success.

Also, consider contacting law school classmates who are in biglaw & ask for advice.

Maintain a healthy diet, avoid alcohol.

Let your therapist know the true extent of your state of mind--that you are feeling overwhelmed & need some practical suggestions on how to handle the constant stress now.

1) I have spoken to senior associates about this. They basically laughed at me when I asked how they handled the pressure to be constantly on-call They're not very friendly here. I don't really have any classmates with whom I had good relations who are in BigLaw now.

2) I've gotten a lot of helpful information on dealing with stress, but have also been told that CONSTANT stress like this can only be combated for so long before something has to give. That something, in this case, would be me. Even my psychiatrist says that it appears my struggles are largely situational, since I was happier and healthier (no meds at all, no need for counseling) prior to starting this job.

I'm trying to find a reasonably healthy way to continue being a lawyer, and that's part of my motivation to accept this other job if offered. I'm honestly becoming more and more okay with paying off my debt not at all or on a much longer timeline in exchange for my mental and physical health. I can't pay back anything (or do anything at all) if I'm dead.

[Anonymous User]

I'm honestly becoming more and more okay with paying off my debt not at all or on a much longer timeline in exchange for my mental and physical health. I can't pay back anything (or do anything at all) if I'm dead.

I made this decision as well, but I'm a few years more senior than you are. I still have a large chunk of debt to repay (large undergrad debt as well; no spouse with whom to split expense plus other obligations). I think the people who are browbeating you to stay a few years more to pay debt off probably have never experienced a certain level of misery. Some people are just more about to handle the constant, never ending onslaught of work with no opportunity to speak with loved ones or go to the store or go to the doctor on short notice when they're ill. And good for them! I'm not built like that though.

At no time have I ever or will I ever be concerned about my debt to the point where I opt for absolute despondence in order to repay it. Tbh I really don't think of the debt most days and when I do it's more of an "it would be nice if it weren't there" thought and then I move on. Maybe I'm missing some sort of responsibility chip or maybe it's because I resisted the calls of my colleagues to refinance and I still have gov't loans and therefore IBR. Of course, in that case too, people were ready to tell me how irresponsible I was for opting out of going to private loans with lower interest rates. For me it was more important to have IBR.

I'm on vacation right now and I'm so very happy. Like you, I have been put on medication due to big law -- was still unhappy everyday. I forgot to take the meds for the past two days on vacation and I am still the happiest I've been in months. I also postponed my therapy session because there is nothing to discuss because I'm too happy.

I will pay my debt each month when it's due and live a happier day to day life. What's the point of being physically and mentally unhealthy but debt free?

[Anonymous User]

Double post

[Anonymous User]

I'm honestly becoming more and more okay with paying off my debt not at all or on a much longer timeline in exchange for my mental and physical health. I can't pay back anything (or do anything at all) if I'm dead.

I made this decision as well, but I'm a few years more senior than you are. I still have a large chunk of debt to repay (large undergrad debt as well; no spouse with whom to split expense plus other obligations). I think the people who are browbeating you to stay a few years more to pay debt off probably have never experienced a certain level of misery. Some people are just more about to handle the constant, never ending onslaught of work with no opportunity to speak with loved ones or go to the store or go to the doctor on short notice when they're ill. And good for them! I'm not built like that though.

At no time have I ever or will I ever be concerned about my debt to the point where I opt for absolute despondence in order to repay it. Tbh I really don't think of the debt most days and when I do it's more of an "it would be nice if it weren't there" thought and then I move on. Maybe I'm missing some sort of responsibility chip or maybe it's because I resisted the calls of my colleagues to refinance and I still have gov't loans and therefore IBR. Of course, in that case too, people were ready to tell me how irresponsible I was for opting out of going to private loans with lower interest rates. For me it was more important to have IBR.

I'm on vacation right now and I'm so very happy. Like you, I have been put on medication due to big law -- was still unhappy everyday. I forgot to take the meds for the past two days on vacation and I am still the happiest I've been in months. I also postponed my therapy session because there is nothing to discuss because I'm too happy.

I will pay my debt each month when it's due and live a happier day to day life. What's the point of being physically and mentally unhealthy but debt free?

This gives me at least some hope. I asked a senior associate today about vacations and he said he took one three years ago and billed 33 hours in four days while on that "vacation." I wanted to cry.

I turned down a law-adjacent job recently because it would have limited my ability to move back home in the future. I'm kind of kicking myself because THAT could have been my chance at normal, but I'm gambling on trying to practice law still, just without wanting to die all the time.

[sparty99]

I'm honestly becoming more and more okay with paying off my debt not at all or on a much longer timeline in exchange for my mental and physical health. I can't pay back anything (or do anything at all) if I'm dead.

I made this decision as well, but I'm a few years more senior than you are. I still have a large chunk of debt to repay (large undergrad debt as well; no spouse with whom to split expense plus other obligations). I think the people who are browbeating you to stay a few years more to pay debt off probably have never experienced a certain level of misery. Some people are just more about to handle the constant, never ending onslaught of work with no opportunity to speak with loved ones or go to the store or go to the doctor on short notice when they're ill. And good for them! I'm not built like that though.

At no time have I ever or will I ever be concerned about my debt to the point where I opt for absolute despondence in order to repay it. Tbh I really don't think of the debt most days and when I do it's more of an "it would be nice if it weren't there" thought and then I move on. Maybe I'm missing some sort of responsibility chip or maybe it's because I resisted the calls of my colleagues to refinance and I still have gov't loans and therefore IBR. Of course, in that case too, people were ready to tell me how irresponsible I was for opting out of going to private loans with lower interest rates. For me it was more important to have IBR.

I'm on vacation right now and I'm so very happy. Like you, I have been put on medication due to big law -- was still unhappy everyday. I forgot to take the meds for the past two days on vacation and I am still the happiest I've been in months. I also postponed my therapy session because there is nothing to discuss because I'm too happy.

I will pay my debt each month when it's due and live a happier day to day life. What's the point of being physically and mentally unhealthy but debt free?

We have done big law so we know what it is like. But we also know the big picture and it is 1 to 2 years out of your life, which could be 70 years. It's probably the K to JD people who cry the most. People who worked before know how the real world works.

[Anonymous User]

I'm honestly becoming more and more okay with paying off my debt not at all or on a much longer timeline in exchange for my mental and physical health. I can't pay back anything (or do anything at all) if I'm dead.

I made this decision as well, but I'm a few years more senior than you are. I still have a large chunk of debt to repay (large undergrad debt as well; no spouse with whom to split expense plus other obligations). I think the people who are browbeating you to stay a few years more to pay debt off probably have never experienced a certain level of misery. Some people are just more about to handle the constant, never ending onslaught of work with no opportunity to speak with loved ones or go to the store or go to the doctor on short notice when they're ill. And good for them! I'm not built like that though.

At no time have I ever or will I ever be concerned about my debt to the point where I opt for absolute despondence in order to repay it. Tbh I really don't think of the debt most days and when I do it's more of an "it would be nice if it weren't there" thought and then I move on. Maybe I'm missing some sort of responsibility chip or maybe it's because I resisted the calls of my colleagues to refinance and I still have gov't loans and therefore IBR. Of course, in that case too, people were ready to tell me how irresponsible I was for opting out of going to private loans with lower interest rates. For me it was more important to have IBR.

I'm on vacation right now and I'm so very happy. Like you, I have been put on medication due to big law -- was still unhappy everyday. I forgot to take the meds for the past two days on vacation and I am still the happiest I've been in months. I also postponed my therapy session because there is nothing to discuss because I'm too happy.

I will pay my debt each month when it's due and live a happier day to day life. What's the point of being physically and mentally unhealthy but debt free?

We have done big law so we know what it is like. But we also know the big picture and it is 1 to 2 years out of your life, which could be 70 years. It's probably the K to JD people who cry the most. People who worked before know how the real world works.

Nice assumption you have there. It's incorrect, but you don't seem interested in doing anything but this exact trolling on every other thread, so... I'm just going to ignore you.

If that "just 1 to 2 years" out of a person's life end up being the LAST years of their life, whether because they take their own life or their physical health is the pillar that crumbles, I'd say that's pretty important to the "big picture," anyway.

[sparty99]

I'm honestly becoming more and more okay with paying off my debt not at all or on a much longer timeline in exchange for my mental and physical health. I can't pay back anything (or do anything at all) if I'm dead.

I made this decision as well, but I'm a few years more senior than you are. I still have a large chunk of debt to repay (large undergrad debt as well; no spouse with whom to split expense plus other obligations). I think the people who are browbeating you to stay a few years more to pay debt off probably have never experienced a certain level of misery. Some people are just more about to handle the constant, never ending onslaught of work with no opportunity to speak with loved ones or go to the store or go to the doctor on short notice when they're ill. And good for them! I'm not built like that though.

At no time have I ever or will I ever be concerned about my debt to the point where I opt for absolute despondence in order to repay it. Tbh I really don't think of the debt most days and when I do it's more of an "it would be nice if it weren't there" thought and then I move on. Maybe I'm missing some sort of responsibility chip or maybe it's because I resisted the calls of my colleagues to refinance and I still have gov't loans and therefore IBR. Of course, in that case too, people were ready to tell me how irresponsible I was for opting out of going to private loans with lower interest rates. For me it was more important to have IBR.

I'm on vacation right now and I'm so very happy. Like you, I have been put on medication due to big law -- was still unhappy everyday. I forgot to take the meds for the past two days on vacation and I am still the happiest I've been in months. I also postponed my therapy session because there is nothing to discuss because I'm too happy.

I will pay my debt each month when it's due and live a happier day to day life. What's the point of being physically and mentally unhealthy but debt free?

We have done big law so we know what it is like. But we also know the big picture and it is 1 to 2 years out of your life, which could be 70 years. It's probably the K to JD people who cry the most. People who worked before know how the real world works.

Nice assumption you have there. It's incorrect, but you don't seem interested in doing anything but this exact trolling on every other thread, so... I'm just going to ignore you.

If that "just 1 to 2 years" out of a person's life end up being the LAST years of their life, whether because they take their own life or their physical health is the pillar that crumbles, I'd say that's pretty important to the "big picture," anyway.

You are being very melodramatic talking about death. Big law is not that deep, especially when it can end in one to two years after the student loans have been paid off.

[nixy]

Not everyone is as insensitive as you, sparty.

[Anonymous User]

Not everyone is as insensitive as you, sparty.

Thank you for this. I don't really want to engage with that person further, but my medical professionals are aware of the suicidal ideation that has set in since I began this job (note, ideation isn't necessarily an immediate danger or making a plan, but it isn't healthy). We're addressing it, but having those thoughts alone is terrifying and very hard to manage, and I don't think this job is worth it.

[Anonymous User]

I'm honestly becoming more and more okay with paying off my debt not at all or on a much longer timeline in exchange for my mental and physical health. I can't pay back anything (or do anything at all) if I'm dead.

I made this decision as well, but I'm a few years more senior than you are. I still have a large chunk of debt to repay (large undergrad debt as well; no spouse with whom to split expense plus other obligations). I think the people who are browbeating you to stay a few years more to pay debt off probably have never experienced a certain level of misery. Some people are just more about to handle the constant, never ending onslaught of work with no opportunity to speak with loved ones or go to the store or go to the doctor on short notice when they're ill. And good for them! I'm not built like that though.

At no time have I ever or will I ever be concerned about my debt to the point where I opt for absolute despondence in order to repay it. Tbh I really don't think of the debt most days and when I do it's more of an "it would be nice if it weren't there" thought and then I move on. Maybe I'm missing some sort of responsibility chip or maybe it's because I resisted the calls of my colleagues to refinance and I still have gov't loans and therefore IBR. Of course, in that case too, people were ready to tell me how irresponsible I was for opting out of going to private loans with lower interest rates. For me it was more important to have IBR.

I'm on vacation right now and I'm so very happy. Like you, I have been put on medication due to big law -- was still unhappy everyday. I forgot to take the meds for the past two days on vacation and I am still the happiest I've been in months. I also postponed my therapy session because there is nothing to discuss because I'm too happy.

I will pay my debt each month when it's due and live a happier day to day life. What's the point of being physically and mentally unhealthy but debt free?

We have done big law so we know what it is like. But we also know the big picture and it is 1 to 2 years out of your life, which could be 70 years. It's probably the K to JD people who cry the most. People who worked before know how the real world works.

Except I did in fact work for several years before entering law school. I held down part-time jobs in high school and college and worked for a few years prior to entering law school. I sometimes think had I been a KJD I'd have been better able to cope with big law. I suspect that having been previously exposed to jobs that weren't infused with misery ruined me for this profession.

[Anonymous User]

I'm honestly becoming more and more okay with paying off my debt not at all or on a much longer timeline in exchange for my mental and physical health. I can't pay back anything (or do anything at all) if I'm dead.

I made this decision as well, but I'm a few years more senior than you are. I still have a large chunk of debt to repay (large undergrad debt as well; no spouse with whom to split expense plus other obligations). I think the people who are browbeating you to stay a few years more to pay debt off probably have never experienced a certain level of misery. Some people are just more about to handle the constant, never ending onslaught of work with no opportunity to speak with loved ones or go to the store or go to the doctor on short notice when they're ill. And good for them! I'm not built like that though.

At no time have I ever or will I ever be concerned about my debt to the point where I opt for absolute despondence in order to repay it. Tbh I really don't think of the debt most days and when I do it's more of an "it would be nice if it weren't there" thought and then I move on. Maybe I'm missing some sort of responsibility chip or maybe it's because I resisted the calls of my colleagues to refinance and I still have gov't loans and therefore IBR. Of course, in that case too, people were ready to tell me how irresponsible I was for opting out of going to private loans with lower interest rates. For me it was more important to have IBR.

I'm on vacation right now and I'm so very happy. Like you, I have been put on medication due to big law -- was still unhappy everyday. I forgot to take the meds for the past two days on vacation and I am still the happiest I've been in months. I also postponed my therapy session because there is nothing to discuss because I'm too happy.

I will pay my debt each month when it's due and live a happier day to day life. What's the point of being physically and mentally unhealthy but debt free?

We have done big law so we know what it is like. But we also know the big picture and it is 1 to 2 years out of your life, which could be 70 years. It's probably the K to JD people who cry the most. People who worked before know how the real world works.

Nice assumption you have there. It's incorrect, but you don't seem interested in doing anything but this exact trolling on every other thread, so... I'm just going to ignore you.

If that "just 1 to 2 years" out of a person's life end up being the LAST years of their life, whether because they take their own life or their physical health is the pillar that crumbles, I'd say that's pretty important to the "big picture," anyway.

You are being very melodramatic talking about death. Big law is not that deep, especially when it can end in one to two years after the student loans have been paid off.

I can't decide which case of insensitivity would be worse here. Trolling people who aren't doing well (i.e. kicking people when they're down) or truly believing that people who are at their wits end should continue the thing that makes them miserable.

I am leaning toward the former being worse. With the latter, you could actually be a decent human being who is in fact trying to help.

If it is the latter, please explain why you think everyone cares about debt as much as you do. I.e., to the point of being ok with sacrificing health to further repayment.

[sparty99]

I'm honestly becoming more and more okay with paying off my debt not at all or on a much longer timeline in exchange for my mental and physical health. I can't pay back anything (or do anything at all) if I'm dead.

I made this decision as well, but I'm a few years more senior than you are. I still have a large chunk of debt to repay (large undergrad debt as well; no spouse with whom to split expense plus other obligations). I think the people who are browbeating you to stay a few years more to pay debt off probably have never experienced a certain level of misery. Some people are just more about to handle the constant, never ending onslaught of work with no opportunity to speak with loved ones or go to the store or go to the doctor on short notice when they're ill. And good for them! I'm not built like that though.

At no time have I ever or will I ever be concerned about my debt to the point where I opt for absolute despondence in order to repay it. Tbh I really don't think of the debt most days and when I do it's more of an "it would be nice if it weren't there" thought and then I move on. Maybe I'm missing some sort of responsibility chip or maybe it's because I resisted the calls of my colleagues to refinance and I still have gov't loans and therefore IBR. Of course, in that case too, people were ready to tell me how irresponsible I was for opting out of going to private loans with lower interest rates. For me it was more important to have IBR.

I'm on vacation right now and I'm so very happy. Like you, I have been put on medication due to big law -- was still unhappy everyday. I forgot to take the meds for the past two days on vacation and I am still the happiest I've been in months. I also postponed my therapy session because there is nothing to discuss because I'm too happy.

I will pay my debt each month when it's due and live a happier day to day life. What's the point of being physically and mentally unhealthy but debt free?

We have done big law so we know what it is like. But we also know the big picture and it is 1 to 2 years out of your life, which could be 70 years. It's probably the K to JD people who cry the most. People who worked before know how the real world works.

Nice assumption you have there. It's incorrect, but you don't seem interested in doing anything but this exact trolling on every other thread, so... I'm just going to ignore you.

If that "just 1 to 2 years" out of a person's life end up being the LAST years of their life, whether because they take their own life or their physical health is the pillar that crumbles, I'd say that's pretty important to the "big picture," anyway.

You are being very melodramatic talking about death. Big law is not that deep, especially when it can end in one to two years after the student loans have been paid off.

I can't decide which case of insensitivity would be worse here. Trolling people who aren't doing well (i.e. kicking people when they're down) or truly believing that people who are at their wits end should continue the thing that makes them miserable.

I am leaning toward the former being worse. With the latter, you could actually be a decent human being who is in fact trying to help.

If it is the latter, please explain why you think everyone cares about debt as much as you do. I.e., to the point of being ok with sacrificing health to further repayment.

I don't care if everyone thinks about debt. They should. These people have 100 to 200k in debt and are talking about leaving after 7 months or after just starting a new job. Please. They won't be happy with $100 to $200k in debt and a $70,000 salary having to forgoe/delay marriage, kids, buying a house, and prolonging their working career and being a slave to their debt. Some people recommend government jobs for 10 years. These people if they think long term can be out in 1 to 2. I need not waste my time explaining the emotional stress of having $100 to $200k of debt. There have been plenty of studies on this topic. Anyone can doing anything for a year. These people are trying to quit after 7 months? Big law is not even that serious. What is possibly the worst thing that can happen in Big Law? They fire you? Oh, well. You hated the job anyway. They just have this very short-sighted view of things. They should probably stop caring their phones with them every place they went. Go to the gym. Seek professional health. Big law is not that serious and they can work 1 to 2 years and get this done. They have created a big hole for themselves and Big law is the way out. Be out of debt in 12 months to 2 years or 10 years. The choice is easy.

[sparty99]

I couldn't think of a snappy title, but here's the situation: I'm currently at a Biglaw firm and the "always on call" aspect/constant flood of emails is driving me insane. Possibly literally, as I've had to start counseling and get on meds since beginning this job. (There's also the fact that my office is FREEZING and I can't control the temperature, which affects me WAY more than it should because it makes it so unpleasant to be there.)

Before I started at this firm I was a contract associate (with a view to eventual permanence) at a different, not-Biglaw firm. I now regret leaving there-- the work was similar in nature, but the expectations were a lot more mentally healthy for me, and the people were excellent to work with.

It may become possible for me to transition back to the smaller firm on a permanent basis in the future. This would necessarily result in a fairly significant pay cut (likely slightly more than 1/3), although I'll still be able to support myself just fine.

If I stay where I am I could have my student loans paid off in two to three years (if I'm disciplined). That would not be possible at the smaller firm-- I would be able to make my payments, but I'd still be mostly in it for the repayment long haul. That's the biggest stumbling block for me when thinking this over, and I need to know what I'm going to do before this all goes too far.

I'm really just looking for advice or ideas here, because all of my career moves thus far have been pretty stupid and I've determined I can't be trusted.

Let's stop playing games here and disclose the salary between the two jobs and your debt amount. Unless you are willing to get a roommate, sell your car, and bring lunch every day, there is no way you need to be quitting your well paid job.

[Anonymous User]

I don't care if everyone thinks about debt. They should. These people have 100 to 200k in debt and are talking about leaving after 7 months or after just starting a new job. Please. They won't be happy with $100 to $200k in debt and a $70,000 salary having to forgoe/delay marriage, kids, buying a house, and prolonging their working career and being a slave to their debt. Some people recommend government jobs for 10 years. These people if they think long term can be out in 1 to 2. I need not waste my time explaining the emotional stress of having $100 to $200k of debt. There have been plenty of studies on this topic. Anyone can doing anything for a year. These people are trying to quit after 7 months? Big law is not even that serious. What is possibly the worst thing that can happen in Big Law? They fire you? Oh, well. You hated the job anyway. They just have this very short-sighted view of things. They should probably stop caring their phones with them every place they went. Go to the gym. Seek professional health. Big law is not that serious and they can work 1 to 2 years and get this done. They have created a big hole for themselves and Big law is the way out. Be out of debt in 12 months to 2 years or 10 years. The choice is easy.

For the sake of adopting the most charitable view of your position as possible, is your advice basically to coast in BL and treat it as a 9-5 job until you can pay off debt or get fired?

[Anonymous User]

I don't care if everyone thinks about debt. They should. These people have 100 to 200k in debt and are talking about leaving after 7 months or after just starting a new job. Please. They won't be happy with $100 to $200k in debt and a $70,000 salary having to forgoe/delay marriage, kids, buying a house, and prolonging their working career and being a slave to their debt. Some people recommend government jobs for 10 years. These people if they think long term can be out in 1 to 2. I need not waste my time explaining the emotional stress of having $100 to $200k of debt. There have been plenty of studies on this topic. Anyone can doing anything for a year. These people are trying to quit after 7 months? Big law is not even that serious. What is possibly the worst thing that can happen in Big Law? They fire you? Oh, well. You hated the job anyway. They just have this very short-sighted view of things. They should probably stop caring their phones with them every place they went. Go to the gym. Seek professional health. Big law is not that serious and they can work 1 to 2 years and get this done. They have created a big hole for themselves and Big law is the way out. Be out of debt in 12 months to 2 years or 10 years. The choice is easy.

For the sake of adopting the most charitable view of your position as possible, is your advice basically to coast in BL and treat it as a 9-5 job until you can pay off debt or get fired?

I also just don't get this position. I have over 200k in debt. I'm in biglaw now and know that I hate it so much I will never pay it off here. I'm planning to transition to government or a lower paying job, and I'm not stressed whatsoever about the debt. That's the whole point of IBR - to be able to take / survive in a lower paying job. So long as I save for the tax bomb (which, combined with minimum payments for the 18 years I have left, will STILL be less than if I'd paid off all my loans outright), there are literally no consequences to having debt. The loan payments are just another monthly bill, and a low one at that (I clerked before biglaw, so have experience with how low/manageable the payments are. I was still able to add a lot to savings during that time). So long as you have government and not private loans, any stress over the debt is more in the abstract than anything.

[Anonymous User]

I don't care if everyone thinks about debt. They should. These people have 100 to 200k in debt and are talking about leaving after 7 months or after just starting a new job. Please. They won't be happy with $100 to $200k in debt and a $70,000 salary having to forgoe/delay marriage, kids, buying a house, and prolonging their working career and being a slave to their debt. Some people recommend government jobs for 10 years. These people if they think long term can be out in 1 to 2. I need not waste my time explaining the emotional stress of having $100 to $200k of debt. There have been plenty of studies on this topic. Anyone can doing anything for a year. These people are trying to quit after 7 months? Big law is not even that serious. What is possibly the worst thing that can happen in Big Law? They fire you? Oh, well. You hated the job anyway. They just have this very short-sighted view of things. They should probably stop caring their phones with them every place they went. Go to the gym. Seek professional health. Big law is not that serious and they can work 1 to 2 years and get this done. They have created a big hole for themselves and Big law is the way out. Be out of debt in 12 months to 2 years or 10 years. The choice is easy.

For the sake of adopting the most charitable view of your position as possible, is your advice basically to coast in BL and treat it as a 9-5 job until you can pay off debt or get fired?

I also just don't get this position. I have over 200k in debt. I'm in biglaw now and know that I hate it so much I will never pay it off here. I'm planning to transition to government or a lower paying job, and I'm not stressed whatsoever about the debt. That's the whole point of IBR - to be able to take / survive in a lower paying job. So long as I save for the tax bomb (which, combined with minimum payments for the 18 years I have left, will STILL be less than if I'd paid off all my loans outright), there are literally no consequences to having debt. The loan payments are just another monthly bill, and a low one at that (I clerked before biglaw, so have experience with how low/manageable the payments are. I was still able to add a lot to savings during that time). So long as you have government and not private loans, any stress over the debt is more in the abstract than anything.

Same. Lots of debt but sleep like a baby due to IBR and have purchased a nice house and a car. And just because you wouldn't yourself marry or marry someone with manageable debt doesn't mean others wouldn't. Someone saying they are delaying marriage due to debt made manageable through IBR should be a deal breaker anyway -- sounds like they put finances above all else.

Anyway, see how people are built differently, Sparty? I could start talking about how those people in the study with emotional stress from debt are silly because I'm fine living with my debt and barely think of it. Just as you seem to think people who find big law life (which many studies have also shown causes misery/emotional stress for some) completely untenable are silly.

Out of curiosity: where do you come down on the Osaka controversy? I'm betting you think she should just do the press conferences even though they exacerbate her depression and anxiety because she gets paid a lot.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, I have $100k-ish in debt and have been on an income-based plan since graduating. As long as you can make your payments (which is addressed by being on an income-based plan), it doesn’t actually really hinder your life. I have a great credit score, I qualified for a mortgage based on my income like anyone else (my loan obligations factored in only as a monthly expense, which I can afford because again, income based), I have a car loan - the debt doesn’t materially prevent you from getting married, buying a house, or having kids (assuming you want to do any of those things. I’ve done 2 of the 3). Would I rather not have the debt than have it? Of course, but it’s not the kind of ball-and-chain that sparty supposes. All it requires is budgeting the payments as part of my monthly expenses and otherwise I don’t think about it.

Obviously there is a belief system out there that holds that debt is evil and morally wrong and it is your overwhelming obligation to get out of debt before you do anything else in life. It’s fine if that’s how sparty or anyone else feels, but sparty doesn’t seem to get that this is a moral argument, not a factual one.

Income-based plans with forgiveness after a given point have really changed the landscape for student debt. And to be fair if you refinance your loans to reduce the interest rate (which I feel like a lot of biglaw people do?) you are much more stuck with keeping a high-salaried job. But as long as you kept your federal loans, you are not going to be miserable or oppressed by paying on your debt longer.

I get that sparty’s response will likely be “but you CAN pay off the debt in a year [or two? I forget whose circumstances we’re actually talking about but I feel like he’s boiled everyone’s situation down to “you can pay this off in a year if you’re careful” without actually considering if this is realistic] so you SHOULD,” but sparty clearly doesn’t understand why anyone would find biglaw so mentally or physically difficult, which is great for sparty, but makes him a terrible judge of what other people who aren’t him should do.

Anyway, sparty is a one-note record and I don’t think he’s really worth debating to this extent, but I write this to add another perspective on living with the debt. (That said, I am SURE sparty thinks Osaka should suck it up and do the press conferences.)

[jc9812]

OP, your question in the thread title is an important one (it was the most important one, for me, in deciding to leave biglaw with a lot of unpaid debt) and I feel like in asking it you might already know the answer. Really rooting for you and I hope things get better.

[sparty99]

I don't care if everyone thinks about debt. They should. These people have 100 to 200k in debt and are talking about leaving after 7 months or after just starting a new job. Please. They won't be happy with $100 to $200k in debt and a $70,000 salary having to forgoe/delay marriage, kids, buying a house, and prolonging their working career and being a slave to their debt. Some people recommend government jobs for 10 years. These people if they think long term can be out in 1 to 2. I need not waste my time explaining the emotional stress of having $100 to $200k of debt. There have been plenty of studies on this topic. Anyone can doing anything for a year. These people are trying to quit after 7 months? Big law is not even that serious. What is possibly the worst thing that can happen in Big Law? They fire you? Oh, well. You hated the job anyway. They just have this very short-sighted view of things. They should probably stop caring their phones with them every place they went. Go to the gym. Seek professional health. Big law is not that serious and they can work 1 to 2 years and get this done. They have created a big hole for themselves and Big law is the way out. Be out of debt in 12 months to 2 years or 10 years. The choice is easy.

For the sake of adopting the most charitable view of your position as possible, is your advice basically to coast in BL and treat it as a 9-5 job until you can pay off debt or get fired?

I also just don't get this position. I have over 200k in debt. I'm in biglaw now and know that I hate it so much I will never pay it off here. I'm planning to transition to government or a lower paying job, and I'm not stressed whatsoever about the debt. That's the whole point of IBR - to be able to take / survive in a lower paying job. So long as I save for the tax bomb (which, combined with minimum payments for the 18 years I have left, will STILL be less than if I'd paid off all my loans outright), there are literally no consequences to having debt. The loan payments are just another monthly bill, and a low one at that (I clerked before biglaw, so have experience with how low/manageable the payments are. I was still able to add a lot to savings during that time). So long as you have government and not private loans, any stress over the debt is more in the abstract than anything.

Same. Lots of debt but sleep like a baby due to IBR and have purchased a nice house and a car. And just because you wouldn't yourself marry or marry someone with manageable debt doesn't mean others wouldn't. Someone saying they are delaying marriage due to debt made manageable through IBR should be a deal breaker anyway -- sounds like they put finances above all else.

Anyway, see how people are built differently, Sparty? I could start talking about how those people in the study with emotional stress from debt are silly because I'm fine living with my debt and barely think of it. Just as you seem to think people who find big law life (which many studies have also shown causes misery/emotional stress for some) completely untenable are silly.

Out of curiosity: where do you come down on the Osaka controversy? I'm betting you think she should just do the press conferences even though they exacerbate her depression and anxiety because she gets paid a lot.

So you are just going to continue making payments for the next 25 years and let the debt balloon and then pay a big tax penalty and there is also uncertainty w/ that. You can be debt free in 1 to 2 years and use what you are paying to the government to do other stuff. IBR is a scam that just makes you in debt longer.

[LBJ's Hair]

I think sparty's basic point is "being poor with a lot of debt and no way to pay it off is stressful too." Which is true.

This is the hottest lateral market in many years. If OP (and the other poster) hate their BigLaw jobs, totally understandable. But there is no better time to try out a different firm or practice area before just throwing in the towel. Maybe there's a way to make it work.

I understand the emotional + psychological appeal of "LEAVING BIGLAW FOREVER" and resigning tomorrow. But as with most things in life, the less-dramatic decision here is the better one.

If a lateral move works out, you have a great situation. If it turns out there isn't, that's fine. You're in the same situation you are now, you look to leave.

But by lateraling, you'll have gained (a) experience, (b) lot of $$$, and (c) nice break--you can de-staff from projects at your current job for a few weeks (depends on the firm I guess), re-staff at the new place for a few months.

Lot of upside, little downside

[nixy]

Sure, there are a lot of reasons to stay, if someone feels they can and it's not going to mess with their physical and mental health. I'm not saying there's no reason to stay or that staying is a terrible idea. I'm just saying it's not something anyone can decide for another person, and it's also fair to pull the plug to prioritize mental health.

But I also think that leaving biglaw doesn't automatically translate to "being poor with a lot of debt and no way to pay it off." The OP is considering going to a lower-paying job that they liked - they're not going to be destitute, living in a van down by the river. If they're in a market-paying biglaw job now, and looking at approximately a 1/3 pay cut, they're still going to be making 6 figures. Anyone who thinks that this means they're going to be so poor that it's going to affect their mental health has been making biglaw money too long to have reasonable perspective on the matter.

[Anonymous User]

I don't care if everyone thinks about debt. They should. These people have 100 to 200k in debt and are talking about leaving after 7 months or after just starting a new job. Please. They won't be happy with $100 to $200k in debt and a $70,000 salary having to forgoe/delay marriage, kids, buying a house, and prolonging their working career and being a slave to their debt. Some people recommend government jobs for 10 years. These people if they think long term can be out in 1 to 2. I need not waste my time explaining the emotional stress of having $100 to $200k of debt. There have been plenty of studies on this topic. Anyone can doing anything for a year. These people are trying to quit after 7 months? Big law is not even that serious. What is possibly the worst thing that can happen in Big Law? They fire you? Oh, well. You hated the job anyway. They just have this very short-sighted view of things. They should probably stop caring their phones with them every place they went. Go to the gym. Seek professional health. Big law is not that serious and they can work 1 to 2 years and get this done. They have created a big hole for themselves and Big law is the way out. Be out of debt in 12 months to 2 years or 10 years. The choice is easy.

For the sake of adopting the most charitable view of your position as possible, is your advice basically to coast in BL and treat it as a 9-5 job until you can pay off debt or get fired?

I also just don't get this position. I have over 200k in debt. I'm in biglaw now and know that I hate it so much I will never pay it off here. I'm planning to transition to government or a lower paying job, and I'm not stressed whatsoever about the debt. That's the whole point of IBR - to be able to take / survive in a lower paying job. So long as I save for the tax bomb (which, combined with minimum payments for the 18 years I have left, will STILL be less than if I'd paid off all my loans outright), there are literally no consequences to having debt. The loan payments are just another monthly bill, and a low one at that (I clerked before biglaw, so have experience with how low/manageable the payments are. I was still able to add a lot to savings during that time). So long as you have government and not private loans, any stress over the debt is more in the abstract than anything.

Same. Lots of debt but sleep like a baby due to IBR and have purchased a nice house and a car. And just because you wouldn't yourself marry or marry someone with manageable debt doesn't mean others wouldn't. Someone saying they are delaying marriage due to debt made manageable through IBR should be a deal breaker anyway -- sounds like they put finances above all else.

Anyway, see how people are built differently, Sparty? I could start talking about how those people in the study with emotional stress from debt are silly because I'm fine living with my debt and barely think of it. Just as you seem to think people who find big law life (which many studies have also shown causes misery/emotional stress for some) completely untenable are silly.

Out of curiosity: where do you come down on the Osaka controversy? I'm betting you think she should just do the press conferences even though they exacerbate her depression and anxiety because she gets paid a lot.

So you are just going to continue making payments for the next 25 years and let the debt balloon and then pay a big tax penalty and there is also uncertainty w/ that. You can be debt free in 1 to 2 years and use what you are paying to the government to do other stuff. IBR is a scam that just makes you in debt longer.

Happy to pay the premium to not be miserable for another year.

You speak from the perspective of someone who has never began dreading the beginning of each day from each evening before. I do all the stuff I need and want to just fine right now, so doing other stuff with the money just isn't as attractive to me as not being drenched with misery 24/7. Again, for you, it's wealth to the exclusion of everything else. Not so for me.

If someone told you you had to go to prison for two years (while guaranteeing your safety and future earning potential, just to make things constant) and at the end you might get $300,000 extra would you go? If not, then you know how I feel.

I really am kind of concerned that people would keep themselves in situations that physically and mentally harm them just to quickly pay off debt that isn't foreclosing them from doing other things.

Obama finished paying his loans when he was mid-40s and he turned out fine (I admit that's an extreme example but I couldn't resist.)

To Uncle Sam: please take the extra money if it means I get to feel normal right now instead of in a few years. I give it to you freely. Please scam me with IBR.