Always be padding? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Always be padding?

[Anonymous User]

Wow, this thread is really eye-opening, I’m surprised at how much people’s practices differ.

OP, I have never heard anyone IRL admit to just blatantly adding time that they didn’t work to their hours, and I think it’s pretty messed up to do that. I do agree with another poster that it’s very possible that I’ve appeared to be doing that myself, though, because at my old firm I used to submit my time weeks after the fact and although I always knew the exact time that I worked because I used timers, sometimes my notes corresponding to the timer entry would be like “work on thing for client” and I would have to try to piece together what that might have been.

Since I’ve found it interesting to see people’s answers to the other questions:

I do generally round up my to the next .1 pretty aggressively (although I usually try to work at least 2 out of the 6 minutes), but I think it balances out because I rarely bill for reading emails on my phone/sending very quick responses, and I don’t bill for “thinking time” (when I’m out trying to enjoy life but part of my brain insists on ruining it by trying to figure out how to deal with a work issue).

1. I definitely bill for looking up precedents - that process usually saves the client time/money anyway.

2. I never double-bill the same time period and am surprised that so many people do. I usually bill for the call and not the other task unless I’m really tuned out on the call.

3. I would never bill for, like, sitting and reading a NYT article for 10 minutes, even if I was sort of thinking about work while doing it, but I don’t stop my timer every time I skim an alert or message that pops up on my phone or whatever.

4. In WFH times, I don’t stop my timer when I walk 10 steps to get water from my kitchen and come back, but I do stop it for bathroom breaks, making/getting food, etc. This is definitely the most common type of “padding” that I saw at work, though - people frequently defend stuff like going to the cafeteria and picking up their lunch (“but I was thinking about the client!”). My standard is generally, “would I feel embarrassed to tell the client to their face that I billed for this?”

5. It seems like firms may differ on this practice (or maybe it’s a corporate vs litigation thing), but generally I would not bill for waiting for someone to turn something. However, if I’m physically with a client (or otherwise on-site, like in a prep for a presentation), I generally bill the entire time until I’m no longer required to be there.

Something I’m never sure how to handle is calls that go, like, 25 minutes, or 31 minutes, etc., because I’m never sure if the other people on the call will round up or down.

[Anonymous User]

My standard is generally, “would I feel embarrassed to tell the client to their face that I billed for this?”

Why? The client doesn't get to decide what you bill for and they clearly are biased. Dissecting every second of every persons day will always lead to people laughing at part of what anyone does as "work".

My standard is if its part of the process of providing the legal services they requested, I bill it.

[Anonymous User]

Woke up to an early morning email from another time zone asking me a one-off question. It took me under a minute to read and respond before I went back to sleep. Does this warrant a 0.1 entry?

Does in my book. But if you only have a couple of those throughout the day I wouldn't add extra 0.1s, I'd just consider them part of the first 0.1

Do most people not use timers? I use timers now for every second of work I do, whether billable, pro bono, or some random biz dev related research assignment. They moot the possibility of worrying about 0.1’ing literally every single email (which, I agree, you shouldn’t do).

Double billing is kinda crazy to me. I’m pretty lax about my own billing practices, but I would never ever do that. I either bill the call or what I’m doing concurrently (depending on what I’m more crucial to). If you think that’s ok you could theoretically bill up to 48 hours in a day... which just doesn’t seem sensible to me.

[Anonymous User]

So much overbilling on here. The only thing I do is round up .1 if it’s like 5 min and 55 seconds.

[Anonymous User]

So much overbilling on here. The only thing I do is round up .1 if it’s like 5 min and 55 seconds.

You round your time down if the latest increment is not that close to a full six minutes????

I don’t think you’re supposed to do that. My firm’s billing system auto rounds it up (I am the timer guy) as soon as you cross 6 min thresholds.

[Buglaw]

Whoever said above that they don’t bill for looking up precedents for a document—that’s crazy, you should definitely bill for that. That is the definition of providing legal services, you are using your skill as a corporate lawyer to identify which document is the appropriate one for this use case. Bill away!!

But this got me thinking about other things I bill for that maybe other people don’t, or don’t bill for that other people do. Would you bill for the following (note: not saying I bill for all of the below):

1. Drafting a document but run into a Word (or other) error and it takes you a little bit of time to reboot, etc or you have to call tech support

2. Double billing when you’re listening in on a call but drafting a document for another client at the same time

3. You are thinking about what to draft but not staring aimlessly out the window—like reading an article in the NYTimes or something while also thinking about how to prepare the document.

4. Quick (less than 5 minutes) break to get food or water.

5. Waiting for a client (or opposing counsel) to turn a document that you need to review tonight. Can you bill for the waiting time?

1. Yes. That's part of the job and not your fault.

2. No. Bill to one or the other or split time. I make a judgment based in where my hours are actually going.

3. Judgement call. If your mostly spending time working on the deal, I'd bill all or most of my time. If you are mostly spending time procrastinating, I would bill little or none of my time.

4. Bill it if I'm thinking about the matter while getting the food (which I am).

5. Situational. If I send a purchase agreement to a partner at 10:00 and am skipping sleep waiting for their comments at 12:00, I bill those two hours. I bill all this waiting time day of closing as well under attend to closing. Otherwise, if I'm eating dinner, walking the dog, reading a book, doing dishes, etc. Don't bill.

[cavalier1138]

So much overbilling on here. The only thing I do is round up .1 if it’s like 5 min and 55 seconds.

You round your time down if the latest increment is not that close to a full six minutes????

I don’t think you’re supposed to do that. My firm’s billing system auto rounds it up (I am the timer guy) as soon as you cross 6 min thresholds.

I believe they're saying that if they're at 5:55, they'll bill it as 0.2 instead of 0.1 (which is what the timers would do by default).

[Anonymous User]

It's extremely common in my experience. Hitting 2000 hours is hard, especially when you're more senior and can't do endless doc review, so a lot of lawyers use every opportunity they can to inflate their hours. A 2.3 becomes a 3.5, etc., and most clients will never know or care.

The most egregious behavior I saw was a senior associate overseeing contract attorneys who billed 8 hours every day but only showed up at the review facility for 2-3 hours each day. I also saw a partner bill around 400 hours on a matter where he only defended three depos and attended a few meetings. Neither were caught (though the associates openly joked about it).

People only get in trouble when they do something extremely stupid, like billing 1.5 to a matter that closed months ago for reading a short email on it.

[Anonymous User]

My standard is generally, “would I feel embarrassed to tell the client to their face that I billed for this?”

Why? The client doesn't get to decide what you bill for and they clearly are biased. Dissecting every second of every persons day will always lead to people laughing at part of what anyone does as "work".

My standard is if its part of the process of providing the legal services they requested, I bill it.

In what sense is “going to the bathroom during a break from working on a brief” part of the process of providing the legal services a client requested? Do you bill your commute time to your office?

[Anonymous User]

In what sense is “going to the bathroom during a break from working on a brief” part of the process of providing the legal services a client requested? Do you bill your commute time to your office?

Every worker gets bathroom breaks. I pay my nanny hourly and I don't insist she deduct time spent in the bathroom. Why should lawyers be treated differently? If clients don't like it they should hire robots instead of humans.

[objctnyrhnr]

I’m honestly kind of surprised people are speaking so openly to one another about offenses that can you sanctioned by the bar (to be clear, I’m definitely not saying every practice described here is necessarily at that level), even if the likelihood of it happening is pretty unlikely.

I guess I figured some people did this type of thing sometimes, but super covertly. The idea of openly admitting it amongst associates, or even discussing it, or joking by the water cooler equivalent about somebody else doing it, seems kind of crazy to me.

[Anonymous User]

In what sense is “going to the bathroom during a break from working on a brief” part of the process of providing the legal services a client requested? Do you bill your commute time to your office?

Find your balance that lets you sleep at night. It isn't worth giving up your morals to make some boomer partner another $100k off your padded 100 hours but you damn well better believe I am billing the 2 minute chat on the way to the printer and grabbing that cup of water on the way back from the printer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjyC5pv-hGc

[Anonymous User]

In what sense is “going to the bathroom during a break from working on a brief” part of the process of providing the legal services a client requested? Do you bill your commute time to your office?

Every worker gets bathroom breaks. I pay my nanny hourly and I don't insist she deduct time spent in the bathroom. Why should lawyers be treated differently? If clients don't like it they should hire robots instead of humans.

(1) your nanny is paid for her physical presence, not tangible work product that she is responsible for producing, and (2) you probably don’t pay your nanny $500-900+ an hour. I know that a lot of people agree with you, I just don’t view the situations as comparable.

[Anonymous User]

Not exactly on topic, but I find that associates do this pretty blatantly with pro bono matters (these hours count toward the yearly minimum/bonus in many places, though sometimes are maxed out at 200 hours per year).

On billable matters, IMO the line really becomes blurred when every waking moment of your life is mentally consumed by your matters. It's up to you to decide what is ethical and what you think won't raise any concerns.

[Anonymous User]

We get paid around $120/hr after tax. Probably less than some suburb Highschool nannies. And we know nannies double bill for two or three kids at once.

[legalpotato]

Whoever said above that they don’t bill for looking up precedents for a document—that’s crazy, you should definitely bill for that. That is the definition of providing legal services, you are using your skill as a corporate lawyer to identify which document is the appropriate one for this use case. Bill away!!

But this got me thinking about other things I bill for that maybe other people don’t, or don’t bill for that other people do. Would you bill for the following (note: not saying I bill for all of the below):

1. Drafting a document but run into a Word (or other) error and it takes you a little bit of time to reboot, etc or you have to call tech support

2. Double billing when you’re listening in on a call but drafting a document for another client at the same time

3. You are thinking about what to draft but not staring aimlessly out the window—like reading an article in the NYTimes or something while also thinking about how to prepare the document.

4. Quick (less than 5 minutes) break to get food or water.

5. Waiting for a client (or opposing counsel) to turn a document that you need to review tonight. Can you bill for the waiting time?

1. Absolutely yes

2. No - if you are a junior who is invited on the call as a courtesy, then you should definitely not bill the call. If you are more senior but the call is nonsense but you are actually viewed as a contributor to the call, then just split the time appropriately.

3. yes

4. yes

5. No - I have heard of some juniors doing this, but this is ridiculous.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming associate, was wondering how time billing works? Do I just keep an Excel spreadsheet open and fill it in at the end of the day? And from this thread apparently "thinking about the issue" is a valid description of time billed? How in detail do you have to go?

[notinbiglaw]

Whoever said above that they don’t bill for looking up precedents for a document—that’s crazy, you should definitely bill for that. That is the definition of providing legal services, you are using your skill as a corporate lawyer to identify which document is the appropriate one for this use case. Bill away!!

But this got me thinking about other things I bill for that maybe other people don’t, or don’t bill for that other people do. Would you bill for the following (note: not saying I bill for all of the below):

1. Drafting a document but run into a Word (or other) error and it takes you a little bit of time to reboot, etc or you have to call tech support

2. Double billing when you’re listening in on a call but drafting a document for another client at the same time

3. You are thinking about what to draft but not staring aimlessly out the window—like reading an article in the NYTimes or something while also thinking about how to prepare the document.

4. Quick (less than 5 minutes) break to get food or water.

5. Waiting for a client (or opposing counsel) to turn a document that you need to review tonight. Can you bill for the waiting time?

1. Within reason
2. No. Bill it to the call.
3. If you're reading NY Times primarily, you shouldn't bill. You're procrastinating more than working at that point. I'm okay billing for the occasional mental breaks though.
4. Yes. Like I consider keeping myself hydrated part of the job.
5. This is probably a no. You can probably get away with it for a very active deal where you are waiting like 10-20 minutes and actively thinking about potential responses but billing for an hour or more of JUST waiting for a response is not going to fly. I'd bill if you follow up during waiting and are told to expect a response any time and you are expected to turn around ASAP after.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming associate, was wondering how time billing works? Do I just keep an Excel spreadsheet open and fill it in at the end of the day? And from this thread apparently "thinking about the issue" is a valid description of time billed? How in detail do you have to go?

Your firm will have software/a dedicated website for it. You can use an excel sheet, but I just start timers in the program as I work and jot down narrative details into the program directly. I used to track and calculate my time with paper notes, but that adds needless effort and time on your part and trying to decipher that shit down the line is really not enjoyable (end up having to review old emails and etc.).

On how good your narrative needs to be, I think good enough so as to not draw any suspicion from the partners or client as to wtf ur doing and whether it’s adding value. That may not be super helpful. You can ask your assistant or other associates to share entries (or take a look at a bill if you have a chance). Being staffed under a partner that had really rigid rules for all their deal time entries helped me refine how I write them a bit.

[Anonymous User]

I'm only saying this because I wish someone told me this earlier on, but I really think the stringent billers are in the minority and I would recommend following a middle path where you at least account for the hours you spend thinking about a case in a reasonable context.

Stringent billing is basically "if I am actively reading, researching, writing, speaking or listening" I am billing otherwise I am not billing. I think it can promote an extra layer of anxiety because it will be tougher to hit hours, partners don't really like it (though plenty will probably tell you this is how you should bill - if every associate billed this way partners would not be pleased) and personally I don't even think it is the ethically accurate way to bill. (Or that it is how a client thinks, if you told a client that you worked 8 hours on a brief and only left your desk to piss and grabbed a sandwich their reaction would not be "oh so you worked 7.5 hours on the brief").

This is not to say you should do some of the more blatant things I've seen (double billing on calls probably falls into that category, but that are other more extreme versions I've heard about including straight up adding time as well without even trying to call it "value" billing).

I think there are some edge cases. If I have to close my eyes and zone out for five minutes because I've been staring at a screen for three hours writing a brief and I have another three hours on the other end I know I'm going to be writing for, I'll bill that. I consider it a necessary part of the process even if I am not "thinking" about the case since it will improve my efficiency and efficacy for the following chunk of writing. But that is kind of specific to writing intensive work.

[Anonymous User]

Does the idea of manually tracking your hours/billing sound very archaic to anyone else? Have there ever been any discussion about changing the way firms charge their clients (like, just a flat rate depending on what needs to be done)? I feel like there has to be so many better ways to do this which would solve so many issues (wasting lawyers time entering time/descriptions, resolving this padding issue, etc).

(From a law student)

[Anonymous User]

Incoming associate, was wondering how time billing works? Do I just keep an Excel spreadsheet open and fill it in at the end of the day? And from this thread apparently "thinking about the issue" is a valid description of time billed? How in detail do you have to go?

Find whatever works for you. Some people like timers; I hated them and just maintained an Excel sheet. Others will email their secretary every evening. And of course, plenty of attorneys don't actually track their time daily and just figure it out at the end of the week or month (don't do this).

"Think about..." is not an acceptable narrative. Use something like "plan and prepare for" or just fold it into your time billed for researching, drafting, attending a meeting, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming associate, was wondering how time billing works? Do I just keep an Excel spreadsheet open and fill it in at the end of the day? And from this thread apparently "thinking about the issue" is a valid description of time billed? How in detail do you have to go?

Find whatever works for you. Some people like timers; I hated them and just maintained an Excel sheet. Others will email their secretary every evening. And of course, plenty of attorneys don't actually track their time daily and just figure it out at the end of the week or month (don't do this).

"Think about..." is not an acceptable narrative. Use something like "plan and prepare for" or just fold it into your time billed for researching, drafting, attending a meeting, etc.

OP here. It's interesting to read so many people's responses. Clearly there is no consensus on what is appropriate/inappropriate, normal/abnormal, too far/totally reasonable in terms of stringency of billing. People are rounding, (mis)remembering, blocking, and classifying some work as billable that others would not. One person's loophole is another person's reasonably policy incentive. The fact that apparently no firm is making any meaningful effort to orient and standardize people on this issue seems pretty revealing to me about what they expect to happen with that ambiguity.

What I can't seem to figure out, even after billing for years at this point, is whether I'm doing it wrong. I've billed +2,000 hours, and it was awful, and I wasn't doing any of the more lenient billing practices that are described in this thread. But if my peers are billing for having thoughts on the train, sitting in the bathroom, rebooting their computer, waiting around in the evenings for a client to turn a draft, etc., then I can only guess how many hundreds of additional hours annually I could have billed. More importantly, how much better would life have been?

And I guess the sad part is that I'm beginning to feel not like "I'm doing it the right way, good job being an upstanding lawyer" and more like "the client does not care, the partners are annoyed you're leaving money on the table, your friends and family are not happy you're unavailable, you don't get to have free time and hobbies, and you're just being a stubborn fool to no one's benefit."

[Anonymous User]

How do you guys bill for responding to quick emails? Do you add a separate description for emails and then add 0.1 to the entry? Or do you just add the 0.1?