Law school alum stereotypes? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Pretty much every UC Hastings grad I met was a gunner.

As a Hastings grad, I'm curious - what kind of gunner are we talking about here?

Work at a firm that hires median-ish T14 but tippy-top from Hastings. As a result, every Hastings grad I've worked with is a mega-gunner and the rest of my coworkers are hard-working, but low-key -- opposite of the Yale problem described above. For what its worth, I'm sure my T14s tippy-top gunners are asshats at W&C or wherever they ended up going.

[Anonymous User]

Out of my T-14 friends, my Michigan buddies seem like the only ones who actually enjoyed law school + like each other

Penn alum, while there are less of them I think fit this too. I rly do believe MVP is as the previous poster mentioned the sweet spot of smart but chill.

Berkeley alum, I think it also falls into this category. Nobody at Berkeley was really trying to go to Stanford. Most people stay in California so they don't have to directly compete with or make comparisons to the hardiest hardos from HCCN etc that end up in NY/DC.

[Anonymous User]

thoughts on Fordham alumni in NYC market?

[Anonymous User]

thoughts on Fordham alumni in NYC market?

I like all my Fordham peers at my V5, but they're def really gunner-ey. They have a chip on their shoulder competing with all the t14 scrubs and want to prove themselves

[Anonymous User]

Out of my T-14 friends, my Michigan buddies seem like the only ones who actually enjoyed law school + like each other

Penn alum, while there are less of them I think fit this too. I rly do believe MVP is as the previous poster mentioned the sweet spot of smart but chill.

Berkeley alum, I think it also falls into this category. Nobody at Berkeley was really trying to go to Stanford. Most people stay in California so they don't have to directly compete with or make comparisons to the hardiest hardos from HCCN etc that end up in NY/DC.

Also went to Cal, +1. I also think some of it has to do with the difference in culture/pace of life on west coast v. east coast.

[Anonymous User]

thoughts on Fordham alumni in NYC market?

I like all my Fordham peers at my V5, but they're def really gunner-ey. They have a chip on their shoulder competing with all the t14 scrubs and want to prove themselves

It’s less that they have something to prove and more that the type of personality that is intelligent and hard working enough to snag a v5 job from a t25 or whatever Fordham is these days is the same type of personality that will continue that work ethic in practice.

Fwiw I went to CLS as a supersplitter so I never quite understood the “CLSers are bitter about no HLS” stigma. Definitely had a lot of personal interactions in practice that run directly contrary to some of the stereotypes being discussed here.

[Anonymous User]

As a transfer student, I have (limited, obviously) perspective on a school in the MVPCCN range and the HYS range.

My fellow students at MVPCCN were generally smart, hard-working, and talented (maybe not as brilliant on the extreme end like you'd find at places like HYS), but more laid-back, easy to hang out with, genuine, and down-to-earth.

My fellow students at HYS were more ambitious as a whole, and had their eyes on different prizes. Whereas at MVPCCN the goal was Biglaw and maybe a federal clerkship as icing on the cake, as HYS the goal was SCOTUS/OLC/elite government work and clerkships in prime locations was to be expected. The effect was that day-to-day life has a different feel because there's just so much ambition and drive baked into every interaction. Which can make things, if more energetic, less pleasant overall. And the spots people vyed for were smaller, so competition, while beneath the surface, was more intense.

TL;DR: at the end of the day, it's just easier to have a beer with some folks than others.

[Anonymous User]

thoughts on Fordham alumni in NYC market?

I like all my Fordham peers at my V5, but they're def really gunner-ey. They have a chip on their shoulder competing with all the t14 scrubs and want to prove themselves

Same here, also v5. I disagree with the prior poster in that I don’t think that they’re just hardworking and intelligent (although most certainly are) - there’s a competitive gunner-y vibe that goes beyond that (name-dropping the clients/partners they’re working with, going way beyond the point of diminishing returns of on their assignments, etc.). It’s obviously not EVERY Fordham alum, and I also like many of the ones who do fall into the gunner category, but it’s a definite trend for me.

[Anonymous User]

thoughts on Fordham alumni in NYC market?

I like all my Fordham peers at my V5, but they're def really gunner-ey. They have a chip on their shoulder competing with all the t14 scrubs and want to prove themselves

Same here, also v5. I disagree with the prior poster in that I don’t think that they’re just hardworking and intelligent (although most certainly are) - there’s a competitive gunner-y vibe that goes beyond that (name-dropping the clients/partners they’re working with, going way beyond the point of diminishing returns of on their assignments, etc.). It’s obviously not EVERY Fordham alum, and I also like many of the ones who do fall into the gunner category, but it’s a definite trend for me.

Fair enough, I’m thinking specifically of the BU/BC/ND/Vandy types that I know and they’re definitely not gunner-types.

[Anonymous User]

thoughts on Fordham alumni in NYC market?

I like all my Fordham peers at my V5, but they're def really gunner-ey. They have a chip on their shoulder competing with all the t14 scrubs and want to prove themselves

Same here, also v5. I disagree with the prior poster in that I don’t think that they’re just hardworking and intelligent (although most certainly are) - there’s a competitive gunner-y vibe that goes beyond that (name-dropping the clients/partners they’re working with, going way beyond the point of diminishing returns of on their assignments, etc.). It’s obviously not EVERY Fordham alum, and I also like many of the ones who do fall into the gunner category, but it’s a definite trend for me.

As a current Fordham student, this does describe the types who are going to a lot of the V5 firms and I find it very funny. The competing with the t14 is also very accurate since a lot (not all) of the people at Fordham wanted to go t14, but didn't get in. Then they were between one or two of GW, Emory, BU, BC, or ND and selected Fordham since it's in NYC and had good job numbers.

[Anonymous User]

thoughts on Fordham alumni in NYC market?

I like all my Fordham peers at my V5, but they're def really gunner-ey. They have a chip on their shoulder competing with all the t14 scrubs and want to prove themselves

Same here, also v5. I disagree with the prior poster in that I don’t think that they’re just hardworking and intelligent (although most certainly are) - there’s a competitive gunner-y vibe that goes beyond that (name-dropping the clients/partners they’re working with, going way beyond the point of diminishing returns of on their assignments, etc.). It’s obviously not EVERY Fordham alum, and I also like many of the ones who do fall into the gunner category, but it’s a definite trend for me.

As a current Fordham student, this does describe the types who are going to a lot of the V5 firms and I find it very funny. The competing with the t14 is also very accurate since a lot (not all) of the people at Fordham wanted to go t14, but didn't get in. Then they were between one or two of GW, Emory, BU, BC, or ND and selected Fordham since it's in NYC and had good job numbers.

Same at my V5. This was also my impression at Fordham admitted students day -- everyone was namedropping their undergrad and the other law schools they got into.

[Anonymous User]

Are YLS alums really as lazy ("entitled" is probably a better descriptor) as mentioned in this thread? Aren't the ones who self-select into biglaw basically similar (in temperament) to other biglaw attorneys?

One difference is that the YLS alums who end up at random biglaw firms as first years are actually the less successful ones in the class (at least relative to what most people go to YLS for). The YLS gunners are going on to SCOTUS clerkships, OLC, and the like.

YLS's unusual class and grading structures and the high proportion of YLS students who don't plan to practice law also make it distinct. I went to Chicago which is also considered "academic" but virtually everyone's goal was to be at the peak of whatever their practice was, nobody obviously planned on running for office, nobody had time to try to publish random law review articles during school, non-journal extracurriculars were very marginal parts of the law school experience, etc. all of which is different from what I've heard about YLS.

One YLS grad I know well compared it to an "elite finishing school" rather than a true law school with competition sublimated into non-legal things like extracurriculars because there were tons of gunners but no true grades. It's not hard to see how that environment could make grads stick out from grads of more conventional law schools.

Fwiw I don't think it's true that most Chicago students are bitter they missed out on HYS, I think most see H at least as a peer and lots of the students got into at least one (why Chicago's yield is abysmal). It resembles the description of HYS above to a degree in that among litigation types the key metric for success was clerking, as fancy as possible, not really biglaw (and especially not NYC biglaw, which was associated with lower parts of the class).

[Anonymous User]

Are YLS alums really as lazy ("entitled" is probably a better descriptor) as mentioned in this thread? Aren't the ones who self-select into biglaw basically similar (in temperament) to other biglaw attorneys?

One difference is that the YLS alums who end up at random biglaw firms as first years are actually the less successful ones in the class (at least relative to what most people go to YLS for). The YLS gunners are going on to SCOTUS clerkships, OLC, and the like.

YLS's unusual class and grading structures and the high proportion of YLS students who don't plan to practice law also make it distinct. I went to Chicago which is also considered "academic" but virtually everyone's goal was to be at the peak of whatever their practice was, nobody obviously planned on running for office, nobody had time to try to publish random law review articles during school, non-journal extracurriculars were very marginal parts of the law school experience, etc. all of which is different from what I've heard about YLS.

One YLS grad I know well compared it to an "elite finishing school" rather than a true law school with competition sublimated into non-legal things like extracurriculars because there were tons of gunners but no true grades. It's not hard to see how that environment could make grads stick out from grads of more conventional law schools.

Fwiw I don't think it's true that most Chicago students are bitter they missed out on HYS, I think most see H at least as a peer and lots of the students got into at least one (why Chicago's yield is abysmal). It resembles the description of HYS above to a degree in that among litigation types the key metric for success was clerking, as fancy as possible, not really biglaw (and especially not NYC biglaw, which was associated with lower parts of the class).

Right. I'm not denying that YLS has a "theoretical" bent and a uniquely large group of people destined for government, academia, other unicorn positions, etc. My point was that, given the NYC/biglaw demographic skew here on TLS, most people commenting in this thread will encounter YLS alums not in those unicorn settings but rather in NYC V10ish biglaw.

I mean, a significant portion of the YLS class (at least 30%, right?) still heads into biglaw -- a cohort of people who probably went to YLS not with the dream of becoming a SCOTUS clerk, but went just because YLS is YLS, i.e., the best law school they got into. I don't see why there's anything special or even particularly ambitious about that ~30% YLS-->biglaw cohort vs. generic T14 grads in biglaw.

Similarly, I went to an "elite" (HYP) undergrad, but I'm now on a conventional biglaw path. I definitely don't consider myself materially different from most other people on this same path.

[Anonymous User]

Attorney's from lower tier law schools, in my experience, tend to work harder than the name brand schools. I have noticed many grew up poor, an immigrant, etc. and are super grateful for the opportunities they have.
Some of the name brand lawyers tend to be a little more entitled about certain things. I'm not saying anyone if lazy, but I have noticed a difference in attitude for sure.

This is selection. The ones that get into competitive jobs are super hard working gunners. A lot of the ones who don’t are party kids/don’t have any work ethic at all.

Very accurate. Lot of drugs went around 1L in my shit tier school.

[Anonymous User]

Given that the summers coming in this year will have 1.5 years of remote law school, I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of common distinctions collapse into a more general dysfunction. Putting aside that most people come into law school with already formed personalities that aren't going to change bc of law school, it's even less likely people will be all that different since their main experience will be in front of a macbook air.

[Anonymous User]

The weirdest people I have met are from WUSTL; actually, WUSTL to T14 transfers (of which there are many).

[Anonymous User]

Given that the summers coming in this year will have 1.5 years of remote law school, I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of common distinctions collapse into a more general dysfunction. Putting aside that most people come into law school with already formed personalities that aren't going to change bc of law school, it's even less likely people will be all that different since their main experience will be in front of a macbook air.

I'm not sure I follow. People are often self-selecting into these schools -- law school may not necessarily change them, but differences will still persist.

[Anonymous User]

I go to one of the New York CCN, the school is so large that there are def all sorts of personalities. Can't think of a general stereotype

[nealric]

The weirdest people I have met are from WUSTL; actually, WUSTL to T14 transfers (of which there are many).

I feel like WSTL seems to attract a lot of very rankings focused types who either miss out on the top tier schools or who are offered a lot of money to attend WSTL over them (similar to the undergrad side). I imagine the people who go because they actually want to practice in the STL area are a bit different.

[blair.waldorf]

The weirdest people I have met are from WUSTL; actually, WUSTL to T14 transfers (of which there are many).

I feel like WSTL seems to attract a lot of very rankings focused types who either miss out on the top tier schools or who are offered a lot of money to attend WSTL over them (similar to the undergrad side). I imagine the people who go because they actually want to practice in the STL area are a bit different.

I went to WUSTL (in part because I was offered a full ride, but in part because I’m from the area and thought I would work in STL biglaw, but then I ended up moving for personal reasons). I was miserable during 1L. My section was extremely, extremely competitive. It seemed like everyone was either annoyed that they were there (because they wanted to go to a T14) or thought they were better than everyone else (because they got into the T14 but went to Wash U for the money). I genuinely considered transferring at the end of my 1L year because I was so unhappy.

Thankfully, I made a great group of friends during my 2L year, and the rest of law school was a lot of fun. But yeah... there are some interesting personalities at WUSTL.

[stupididiot]

Pretty much every UC Hastings grad I met was a gunner.

As a Hastings grad, I'm curious - what kind of gunner are we talking about here?

Work at a firm that hires median-ish T14 but tippy-top from Hastings. As a result, every Hastings grad I've worked with is a mega-gunner and the rest of my coworkers are hard-working, but low-key -- opposite of the Yale problem described above. For what its worth, I'm sure my T14s tippy-top gunners are asshats at W&C or wherever they ended up going.

Are T14 tippy-top gunners really going to White & Case?

[Anonymous User]

Pretty much every UC Hastings grad I met was a gunner.

As a Hastings grad, I'm curious - what kind of gunner are we talking about here?

Work at a firm that hires median-ish T14 but tippy-top from Hastings. As a result, every Hastings grad I've worked with is a mega-gunner and the rest of my coworkers are hard-working, but low-key -- opposite of the Yale problem described above. For what its worth, I'm sure my T14s tippy-top gunners are asshats at W&C or wherever they ended up going.

Are T14 tippy-top gunners really going to White & Case?

The cream goes to White & Case

[Anonymous User]

I go to one of the New York CCN, the school is so large that there are def all sorts of personalities. Can't think of a general stereotype

[Anonymous User]

Pretty much every UC Hastings grad I met was a gunner.

As a Hastings grad, I'm curious - what kind of gunner are we talking about here?

Work at a firm that hires median-ish T14 but tippy-top from Hastings. As a result, every Hastings grad I've worked with is a mega-gunner and the rest of my coworkers are hard-working, but low-key -- opposite of the Yale problem described above. For what its worth, I'm sure my T14s tippy-top gunners are asshats at W&C or wherever they ended up going.

Are T14 tippy-top gunners really going to White & Case?

The cream goes to White & Case

[Anonymous User]

Pretty much every UC Hastings grad I met was a gunner.

As a Hastings grad, I'm curious - what kind of gunner are we talking about here?

Work at a firm that hires median-ish T14 but tippy-top from Hastings. As a result, every Hastings grad I've worked with is a mega-gunner and the rest of my coworkers are hard-working, but low-key -- opposite of the Yale problem described above. For what its worth, I'm sure my T14s tippy-top gunners are asshats at W&C or wherever they ended up going.

Are T14 tippy-top gunners really going to White & Case?

The cream goes to White & Case

No joke. W&C attracts a lot of the Yale Law Review types, even its presidents