Akin Suicide Forum

[Anonymous User]

where's admin Megan when we need her!?

[Anonymous User]

This discussion/information seems newsworthy. I don't see any "identifying" posts (as evidenced by the fact that I just spent 10 minutes trying to figure out who this was based on the very limited information presented in this thread, but could not).

[target_corp]

I've had very close family members who have dealt with depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, and schizophrenia. Is that a good enough cred signal for you? I've seen it.

The only point I and several others are making is that people like this are always one bad environment away from making that fateful decision. There's nothing particular to biglaw that causes this and it isn't biglaw's responsibility to change its structure because of it. The same result would have occurred, hypothetically, if this person were working in banking or a fire department or the military or as a surgeon or countless other high stress / high intensity environments. Or, you know what, maybe the environment had absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever and it was just a question of time.

I always lol when burnt out associates project when something like this happens and start wringing their hands about the "toxic culture." Culture didn't cause this. Again, this is a tragedy and a very sad course of events but it wasn't because of anything that was happening inside of Akin or any other firm. It was something inside that person.

"It was them: it's not happening to me. They're just weaker."

[Anonymous User]

At my old firm, nearly a decade ago, an older partner killed herself. There was so much discussion about whether the workload and culture of the firm (and her practice group in particular) contributed to it. These are discussions that should be had. It would be easy enough to have a general conversation about law firms and how the culture in some (all?) BL firms is toxic and can contribute to depression, anxiety, and suicide. It’s certainly happened at enough firms.

I know quite a few people who have been able to reduce it altogether stop taking anxiety meds after leaving BL. We have these conversations centered around bad partners or sweatshops and billable hour requirements but we don’t usually take it the step further to talk about the long term toll on mental health.

[2013]

This discussion/information seems newsworthy. I don't see any "identifying" posts (as evidenced by the fact that I just spent 10 minutes trying to figure out who this was based on the very limited information presented in this thread, but could not).

It came up as the top hit in my first search, so you’re clearly a google search amateur.

[Anonymous User]

I know quite a few people who have been able to reduce it altogether stop taking anxiety meds after leaving BL. We have these conversations centered around bad partners or sweatshops and billable hour requirements but we don’t usually take it the step further to talk about the long term toll on mental health.

I stopped taking anxiety meds after leaving BL and have not felt like I needed them since.

But I still have anxiety and depression related to BL. I dwell on mistakes I made, the yelling from terrible partners, the way I treated my wife and friends when I was slammed for days at a time, the drinking I did on weekends to cope, and so on. I sometimes have bad dreams about BL. It's been 2+ years since I left BL but I still feel its mental health effects all the time.

I know this sounds dramatic, but it's the truth.

[bodylikeatwizzler]

Regarding cause and effect, you are right that we don't have proof that Akin Gump caused her to commit suicide. However, we do have proof that she was a highly accomplished person her entire life, until Akin Gump, which was coincidentally when she lost the will to live (assuming this was suicide, which has also not been confirmed.) You're right, there might have been something else that appeared in her life at that moment and turned her from a highly-motivated and accomplished person into someone who became suicidal. But, from where we stand, it could have been Akin Gump that did that.

tl/dr - we don't know that it was Akin Gump, but we also don't know for sure that it wasn't Akin Gump.

[RPK34]

Regarding cause and effect, you are right that we don't have proof that Akin Gump caused her to commit suicide. However, we do have proof that she was a highly accomplished person her entire life, until Akin Gump, which was coincidentally when she lost the will to live (assuming this was suicide, which has also not been confirmed.) You're right, there might have been something else that appeared in her life at that moment and turned her from a highly-motivated and accomplished person into someone who became suicidal. But, from where we stand, it could have been Akin Gump that did that.

tl/dr - we don't know that it was Akin Gump, but we also don't know for sure that it wasn't Akin Gump.

The idea that “highly motivated and accomplished” person is mutually exclusive of being suicidal is absurd. And also shockingly ignorant of the personality traits of many attorneys that lead to depression, drug use, anxiety and sometimes suicide.

[bodylikeatwizzler]

Regarding cause and effect, you are right that we don't have proof that Akin Gump caused her to commit suicide. However, we do have proof that she was a highly accomplished person her entire life, until Akin Gump, which was coincidentally when she lost the will to live (assuming this was suicide, which has also not been confirmed.) You're right, there might have been something else that appeared in her life at that moment and turned her from a highly-motivated and accomplished person into someone who became suicidal. But, from where we stand, it could have been Akin Gump that did that.

tl/dr - we don't know that it was Akin Gump, but we also don't know for sure that it wasn't Akin Gump.

The idea that “highly motivated and accomplished” person is mutually exclusive of being suicidal is absurd. And also shockingly ignorant of the personality traits of many attorneys that lead to depression, drug use, anxiety and sometimes suicide.

I actually logged back on to delete my post to avoid getting embroiled in this but since I can't now ... I don't know why you read that absurd conclusion into what I wrote. My point isn't that highly-motivated and accomplished people never become suicidal. The point is that a horrible life event can turn anyone, whether highly motivated and accomplished or not, into someone who loses motivation, stops feeling joy becomes despondent. Your mood, happiness, motivation and joy in life are not fixed. They change, largely depending on your circumstances. Bottom line is that if you see these things fall off a cliff when taking any life path, whether biglaw or whatever, that's your body telling you that you made a bad choice and you need to make a change.

[RPK34]

Regarding cause and effect, you are right that we don't have proof that Akin Gump caused her to commit suicide. However, we do have proof that she was a highly accomplished person her entire life, until Akin Gump, which was coincidentally when she lost the will to live (assuming this was suicide, which has also not been confirmed.) You're right, there might have been something else that appeared in her life at that moment and turned her from a highly-motivated and accomplished person into someone who became suicidal. But, from where we stand, it could have been Akin Gump that did that.

tl/dr - we don't know that it was Akin Gump, but we also don't know for sure that it wasn't Akin Gump.

The idea that “highly motivated and accomplished” person is mutually exclusive of being suicidal is absurd. And also shockingly ignorant of the personality traits of many attorneys that lead to depression, drug use, anxiety and sometimes suicide.

I actually logged back on to delete my post to avoid getting embroiled in this but since I can't now ... I don't know why you read that absurd conclusion into what I wrote. My point isn't that highly-motivated and accomplished people never become suicidal. The point is that a horrible life event can turn anyone, whether highly motivated and accomplished or not, into loss of motivation, lack of joy and despondence. Your mood, happiness, motivation and joy in life are not fixed. They change, largely depending on your circumstances. Bottom line is that if you see these things fall off a cliff when taking any life path, whether biglaw or whatever, that's your body telling you that you made a bad choice and you need to make a change.

You keep describing it as “turning suicidal,” from being highly motivated. Many people graduate from Princeton, go to Goldman, graduate from YLS and then end up at Cravath battling depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts the entire way. Achievement is a coping mechanism and mask for many mental health disorders.

By the way, I’m not commenting on the attorney in question here. I know nothing about him or her.

[bodylikeatwizzler]

You keep describing it as “turning suicidal,” from being highly motivated. Many people graduate from Princeton, go to Goldman, graduate from YLS and then end up at Cravath battling depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts the entire way. Achievement is a coping mechanism and mask for many mental health disorders.

By the way, I’m not commenting on the attorney in question here. I know nothing about him or her.

That's total bullshit. You're confusing occasional bad feelings, intertwined with feelings of joy, motivation and happiness, which everyone probably feels, with complete and utter despondency. Again, stop acting like your mood is some fixed thing. It's not. It changes, largely depending on your circumstances. If a life path changes you from someone who occasionally felt down, but who was generally happy and motivated, into someone who becomes utterly miserable and hopeless, dead inside with almost no feelings of happiness, or motivation -- so much so that you don't even see the point of living anymore, then that's your body telling you that you made a bad choice, and you can fix things and turn into the person you were.

I just posted a thread about Jason Oppenheim who might have gone through something like this. He abruptly quit his biglaw job and spent three years traveling the world. When he returned to LA, he had no money, $40k of credit card debt, was living with a roommate in a 1br apartment (he took the living room), and he drove a $1,000 old car. He said that at his lowest point he "even thought of going back to law." But he didn't. He worked hard at a very low paying job that made him happy and by luck or hard work, whatever, he eventually made it. But even if he hadn't made it, he liked that low paying relatively impoverished life he had, with his $1,000 car, more than he liked his biglaw job when he drove a $100,000 car. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=309357

One last thing, I'm not a scientologist but dianetics has a great chart you can use to evaluate your mood. It's called the tone scale. If you're low on that scale, make a change.

https://imgur.com/a/7K2S0W4

[nixy]

I mean, of course someone could have been struggling with depression etc. long before they made it to biglaw. So of course it's possible that a suicide while working in biglaw has nothing to do with the actual job. But it's also possible the job did contribute. None of us has enough information here to know that one way or another. I don't think it's controversial to say, though, that 1) if someone did have mental health problems before entering biglaw, the atmosphere in biglaw wouldn't help, and 2) someone who didn't previously have mental health problems could develop issues with depression and anxiety from working in biglaw (which isn't to say that biglaw is the only job out there that could have this effect).

With regard to #1, maybe the response is "well, that person shouldn't have gone into biglaw, then," but that seems kind of cold (especially since a really common theme about biglaw on this site is "your experience totally depends on who you work with," and people can't really know what their situation is going to be before they start).

[cavalier1138]

Mod hat on

I'm going to leave this thread in place for now because discussion of mental health in this profession is deeply important. That said, let's try to rein things in:

-Do not include identifying information regarding the deceased. Unless/until this story is picked up by a news outlet, that information is irrelevant and clearly has not been made public.
-Do not pretend to be a trained mental health professional unless you are one. (Hint: If you are citing dianetics, you are not a trained mental health professional). Feel free to share resources or offer your own supporting anecdotes, but stop trying to armchair-diagnose other people.

Also, since there seem to be a number of posters who think that mods track every thread in every forum: Please use the report feature. If you think a specific post has crossed a line, that is how you can let mods know. Simply saying "lock this thread" does not summon us to your aid.

[bodylikeatwizzler]

Mod hat on

I'm going to leave this thread in place for now because discussion of mental health in this profession is deeply important. That said, let's try to rein things in:

-Do not include identifying information regarding the deceased. Unless/until this story is picked up by a news outlet, that information is irrelevant and clearly has not been made public.
-Do not pretend to be a trained mental health professional unless you are one. (Hint: If you are citing dianetics, you are not a trained mental health professional). Feel free to share resources or offer your own supporting anecdotes, but stop trying to armchair-diagnose other people.

Also, since there seem to be a number of posters who think that mods track every thread in every forum: Please use the report feature. If you think a specific post has crossed a line, that is how you can let mods know. Simply saying "lock this thread" does not summon us to your aid.

I wasn't citing to dianetics. I cited to their scale of emotional moods, which is credited.

Also, you're a terrible moderator. Simply googling REDACTED pulls up all of this person's information. If you had any actual concern for their privacy you would completely delete this thread. But again, you're a terrible moderator.

[cavalier1138]

Mod hat on

I'm going to leave this thread in place for now because discussion of mental health in this profession is deeply important. That said, let's try to rein things in:

-Do not include identifying information regarding the deceased. Unless/until this story is picked up by a news outlet, that information is irrelevant and clearly has not been made public.
-Do not pretend to be a trained mental health professional unless you are one. (Hint: If you are citing dianetics, you are not a trained mental health professional). Feel free to share resources or offer your own supporting anecdotes, but stop trying to armchair-diagnose other people.

Also, since there seem to be a number of posters who think that mods track every thread in every forum: Please use the report feature. If you think a specific post has crossed a line, that is how you can let mods know. Simply saying "lock this thread" does not summon us to your aid.

I wasn't citing to dianetics. I cited to their scale of emotional moods, which is credited.

Also, you're a terrible moderator. Simply googling REDACTED pulls up all of this person's information. If you had any actual concern for their privacy you would completely delete this thread. But again, you're a terrible moderator.

Let me be clearer: If you cite to anything even remotely related to Scientology as "credited," you're a fucking moron.

And I've removed all the information in the thread that identified the deceased's alma mater (something you evidently felt was worth including in your juvenile rant). Without that information, I have not been able to locate anything online naming the deceased, and I'm comfortable letting the adults in the room continue to discuss something that deserves serious discussion.

[bodylikeatwizzler]

Mod hat on

I'm going to leave this thread in place for now because discussion of mental health in this profession is deeply important. That said, let's try to rein things in:

-Do not include identifying information regarding the deceased. Unless/until this story is picked up by a news outlet, that information is irrelevant and clearly has not been made public.
-Do not pretend to be a trained mental health professional unless you are one. (Hint: If you are citing dianetics, you are not a trained mental health professional). Feel free to share resources or offer your own supporting anecdotes, but stop trying to armchair-diagnose other people.

Also, since there seem to be a number of posters who think that mods track every thread in every forum: Please use the report feature. If you think a specific post has crossed a line, that is how you can let mods know. Simply saying "lock this thread" does not summon us to your aid.

I wasn't citing to dianetics. I cited to their scale of emotional moods, which is credited.

Also, you're a terrible moderator. Simply googling REDACTED pulls up all of this person's information. If you had any actual concern for their privacy you would completely delete this thread. But again, you're a terrible moderator.

Let me be clearer: If you cite to anything even remotely related to Scientology as "credited," you're a fucking moron.

And I've removed all the information in the thread that identified the deceased's alma mater (something you evidently felt was worth including in your juvenile rant). Without that information, I have not been able to locate anything online naming the deceased, and I'm comfortable letting the adults in the room continue to discuss something that deserves serious discussion.

MOD NOTE: IDENTIFYING INFORMATION REDACTED. USER HAS BEEN ISSUED A ONE MONTH BAN.

[nealric]

All,

I have issued a temp ban and deleted off topic posts. This is a sensitive issue, but I understand the need to discuss mental health in biglaw. Please keep the conversation respectful to all involved and avoid ANY identifying information (or instructions on how to find it) or we will just lock the thread.

[Anonymous User]

Absolutely terrible and sad; my thoughts and prayers are with the family.

Regardless of the cause of death, with the Goldman report coming out a couple weeks ago and the known similarities of toxic work environments in BL, I hope firms really rethink their work environments. Amazing work can still be done without crushing young associates. Is it easier to just work people to the bone? Sure, but it is on everyone to do better and innovate new ways to get the job done; find ways to do the same work (or better work!) without creating these environments. If that means personnel training or hiring more associates at the expense of partners (gasp), then so be it. This goes for everything in life..

[target_corp]

I don't understand what the goal is for people who feel compelled to explain to others with mental health issues caused or aggravated by law that law isn't a contributing factor and that their struggle is just an individualized problem.

Like, are you really trying to prove that law isn't needlessly toxic a lot of the time? There are tons of threads on TLS, articles outside of TLS and studies on that topic alone, so the argument seems really disingenuous and out of left field to me.

I'm not sure why the people who are convinced law isn't the problem (or at least, a problem) care. God forbid this profession actually become more humane.

[Dahl]

Whenever there are people pushing for change, there will be people resisting it. Look at the wfh threads and the weird resistance from a small faction to even seeing wfh as a permanent possibility. There’s some contingent of people who want everyone to suffer with them, or because they went through it, or pretending there’s no alternative.

Even if other fields are equally toxic, it’s at least clear there’s room for improvement, especially at law firms/BL.

[Anonymous User]

For what it’s worth, I was pretty depressed before big law and now I don’t have time to think about it. I like working stupid hours as a distraction. Definitely unhealthy, but whatever. The more I work the less time I have to think about how much my life sucks. It’s definitely going to hit me like a ton of bricks come vacation time though.

[Anonymous User]

There are so many studies that show toxic work environments cause depression and increase suicide. Why is this even up for debate? Last year, I had a friend and colleague commit suicide while at top law firm. I knew him from our days in the service. He survived a tour in Iraq. I am still so sad that it was the pressure of a "Biglaw" that made him decide to take his life. He would text me about how unhappy he was at the firm, the pressure of the billing requirements, insomnia, and not being able to remain physically healthy. He was a warrior. RIP.

[Anonymous User]

Serious post: I am considering using this event to raise the topic of mental health at my firm. Is there any official confirmation or reputable source indicating that this occurred, so that I have some proof? I doubt those in charge at my firm will consider anonymous TLS posts sufficiently reputable.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

There are so many studies that show toxic work environments cause depression and increase suicide. Why is this even up for debate? Last year, I had a friend and colleague commit suicide while at top law firm. I knew him from our days in the service. He survived a tour in Iraq. I am still so sad that it was the pressure of a "Biglaw" that made him decide to take his life. He would text me about how unhappy he was at the firm, the pressure of the billing requirements, insomnia, and not being able to remain physically healthy. He was a warrior. RIP.

I believe there is only one clueless anon who seems to be arguing that Biglaw cannot cause/exacerbate mental (and physical) illness and/or drive someone over the edge. No one else ITT, nor known IRL to me, seems to hold that position, which, to be clear, is both dickish and empirically bullshit.

[JamezPhoenix]

I am aware of a 2020 grad who worked at Akin who passed away last week. I wasn't aware it was a suicide, although I didn't see any news regarding it (so probably wasn't a car accident or something similar). That's incredibly tragic. NO JOB IS WORTH YOUR LIFE. IF IT IS THAT BAD, PLEASE JUST QUIT.

I’ve heard some terrible things out of Akin Rx esp lately. If this is true they need to seriously think about their culture.

People don't kill themselves because of work load. People kill themselves because of unaddressed issues, usually mental health stuff. To be clear, anytime a young person takes his or her life, it's a tragedy, but I get frustrated with the navel-gazing analysis that occurs after about "work culture" as if having to write briefs or review diligence documents for 70 hours a week causes people to end their life.

As someone who has struggled with my own mental health issues and see a therapist on a regular basis to work through it, all this tells me is you have no idea what mental health is all about and, likely have never seen a therapist in your life. People take their life for countless reasons - a failed relationship, losing a job, demands of work, harassment, bullying, a rouge online comment, or countless other reasons. Maybe underlying, unaddressed issues are also to blame but such a blanket statement does nothing but reinforce that their is a problem in our high-expectation, high-stress, high-demand work environment.

I've had very close family members who have dealt with depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, and schizophrenia. Is that a good enough cred signal for you? I've seen it.

The only point I and several others are making is that people like this are always one bad environment away from making that fateful decision. There's nothing particular to biglaw that causes this and it isn't biglaw's responsibility to change its structure because of it. The same result would have occurred, hypothetically, if this person were working in banking or a fire department or the military or as a surgeon or countless other high stress / high intensity environments. Or, you know what, maybe the environment had absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever and it was just a question of time.

I always lol when burnt out associates project when something like this happens and start wringing their hands about the "toxic culture." Culture didn't cause this. Again, this is a tragedy and a very sad course of events but it wasn't because of anything that was happening inside of Akin or any other firm. It was something inside that person.

I genuinely don't understand how ANYONE could disagree with this poster, but apparently everyone does. I am not in BL yet, but I am genuinely curious why anyone would blame any job for an individuals personal decision. Do we not believe in free will? I remember growing up people always blamed kids killing themselves on online bullying over an interstate chat room, as if it was impossible to turn off a computer. Electricians have a higher suicide rate than Lawyers, I just don't understand why smart people are saying Correlation = Causation. I am not trying to trigger or upset anyone. I understand that law is stressful, that people get depressed. But if you were beyond depression, to the point you wanted to end your life, why would you not leave? No one is forcing anyone to practice law or work at any specific firm. There are very few cases where one could argue that the rational choice was to end one's life, so if we can all agree that a person in not acting rationally then why do we disagree that the person obviously has some underlying issues/poor coping skills/irrational self-talk? Please, if you know something that I do not know about Big Law then educated me. Please do not post dismissive garbage like earlier posters did. If there is something about BL that takes away your free will or ability to think rationally, if there is some kind of contractual obligation that prevents you from quitting or not showing up I really do want to know before I enter into it.