What are the personality traits that allow someone to do biglaw without being miserable? Forum

[Pneumonia]

This person is a fantasist who romanticizes things to make them seem interesting.

Juxtapose this list with
• The things lawyers actually do day to day, bureaucratic tasks which require constant attention to detail for hours on end. It's tedious and endless paper pushing work. Many would consider it torture, whether you're in lit or transactions.
• The actual social status of lawyers, which is very low outside of forums like this.
• The money lawyers make, which is not much on a hourly basis. A partner would make a fool of themself if they bragged about their income among truly wealthy people, never mind an associate.
• The true "deep thoughts" of the world. Lawyers don't make or invent anything of significance to society. For example, you might document and litigate over the patent, but the "deep thinker" was the one who invented it. You file various paperwork for the company, but you didn't create it. Lawyers do the bureaucratic work in society that most economists call "rent seeking."

Romanticizing things is a great motivational tool and it works in the short term. But it will take an incredible amount of mental energy to romanticize your job day in, day out, for weeks, months, and years on end. Best to accept it for what it is from the start, lower your expectations and realize that the world doesn't hand out happiness equally or fairly.

This person is a pessimist whose personality didn't lead to happiness in Biglaw and who apparently doesn't understand that others may have a different experience. Do you see how unhelpful that is? I guess you've usefully pointed out what personality traits don't work well in Biglaw. Someone who finds detail-oriented tasks to be tedious, for one. Your other three comparisons strike me as bad faith.

--Social status is "very low" for biglawyers? I mean, I guess so in pretty narrow circumstances. Like maybe a 10k/plate fundraiser? Open a phone book (or digital equivalent). Pick 10 business at random. Restaurants, bars, whatever. Imagine you walk in as a biglawyer. Will you feel "very low" social status in that setting? 10/10 the answer is no. In absolute terms any lawyer is at least medium social status. Biglawers are high status. In relative terms I can see how biglaw would be "very low." So I guess the personality trait your selecting for is "don't be someone who sees < top 10% social status as very low"?

--The money is "not much" on an hourly basis? $200,000/yr divided by 2,500 hours equals $80/hr. That is a fantastic wage in absolute terms. But of course it pales relative to "truly wealthy" people; so do all other wages. So the personality trait you've selected for here is "don't be someone who expects biglaw to make them truly wealthy?"

--Lawyers do "bureaucratic work" that isn't real "deep thinking?" Bureaucratic, sure. And in many practices, especially in the early stages, you are right that there is little opportunity for deep thinking. Most of the white-collar world is rent seeking though. And the blue collar world offers very little opportunity for thinking, deep or otherwise. So the trait you've selected for here is "don't be someone who expects to make or invent something of significance to society?"

Those traits are fine additions to the list. But the majority of the American population already has them. The fact that some people don't doesn't undermine the list you're responding to.

[Pneumonia]

One thing and one thing only, low expectations from life. I don't mean this in a pejorative way either. It's just a fact. Lower your expectations until you're grateful.

I should have just responded to this instead of the above. It is a good post. The counterpart is that people who don't need to do any lowering will find themselves happier in Biglaw. Not everyone starts with the expectation that the relevant social comparator is a "truly wealthy" person who expects to contribute something useful to society as a whole. I would think that most people start with expectations below that point, but maybe that's wrong.

[Anonymous User]

Someone who realizes they aren't skilled, talented or creative enough to do something else, but is okay with making a significant amount of money for essentially pushing paper all day.

It helps if you use that money for stuff that you're really interested outside of work (e.g., a nice house, cars, watches, vacations, fat retirement account, etc.) or if you grew up in poverty and realize you work 1/10 as hard as your parents did but you make 15-20x what they did combined.

[Lesion of Doom]

I am very happy being a biglaw attorney at a NYC V5. Here are the few traits that I think have helped me.

Self-awareness: I realize that I have absolutely no skills, talents or abilities that set me apart from the pack. I'm of only moderate intelligence, I'm willing to work only moderately hard and I can stomach only a moderate amount of risk . However, I still want to be paid a lot of money, even though I have none of the qualities that warrant being paid such a high salary. Thus, I'm pretty grateful that I'm making as much money as I am, and it doesn't bother me that I work a lot of hours. In my eyes, I have the attitude of "I can't believe these clowns are paying me this much money to do this shit lol".

[snip....]

I think this entire post provides great perspective. I share some of these qualities and am okay with it. As a second career person who washed out in his first career -- which paid less than half of my current salary -- biglaw has opened financial doors I never believed were possible for me. When it's shitty, that's always my go-to thought. Humility, even if entirely forced and unwelcome, can provide a great shield against the biglaw miasma.

The only power these people have over me is that they can take away my job. Which has happened before and I survived it, improved my lot in life in fact. It's not that big of a deal. Good people can do really well, so I'm not quite as jaundiced about it all as some of my colleagues posting on here, but you can't stake your self-worth on it.

[feminist.supporter]

I am very happy being a biglaw attorney at a NYC V5. Here are the few traits that I think have helped me.

Self-awareness: I realize that I have absolutely no skills, talents or abilities that set me apart from the pack. I'm of only moderate intelligence, I'm willing to work only moderately hard and I can stomach only a moderate amount of risk . However, I still want to be paid a lot of money, even though I have none of the qualities that warrant being paid such a high salary. Thus, I'm pretty grateful that I'm making as much money as I am, and it doesn't bother me that I work a lot of hours. In my eyes, I have the attitude of "I can't believe these clowns are paying me this much money to do this shit lol".

Perspective: I grew up middle class, went to public school and am the son of immigrants. Most of my high school friends live mundane lives and many are struggling, working 50 hours a week in stressful jobs for $40-60k/year with a family. For most of my childhood, we never had a household income over 100K and my parents still managed to raise and send two kids to college by sacrificing basically all comforts in life. I'm keenly aware of how much worse my life could be and that currently I'm at the best position I've ever been in. I'm grateful that biglaw gives me flexibility in hours, and I never feel financial insecurity. We are in the very rare 1% of America that lives a pretty decadent lifestyle.

Relaxed/Don't give a shit: I want to do a good job, and I work hard to deliver the best product I can. But, if I fall short or make a mistake - I really don't give a shit. You're just not that important - most of the time you're an afterthought to the Company/Bank you're working for. If you don't meet a deadline or don't draft a doc perfectly, no one will die, no one will get fired, no one will lose their home etc. The worst possible outcome is some megacompany will lose a little bit of money or waste a little money in extra legal fees. I'm not going to lose sleep over this.

Self-worth: Now that I do interviews/recruiting - I can see that so many of these kids entire self-worth is tied into their careers/prestige. This forum doesn't help. First, let me say this - if you're a biglaw transactional attorney, you'll never impress me. All that means is you took the absolute safest route in life with a very well trodden path laid out for you. You were either not talented or brave enough to try and go after what you truly wanted in life.

So, working at Cravath over DLA Piper doesn't make you a better or sexier person. I'd rather work 2000 hours at DLA Piper than 3000 hours at Cravath any day, and I really don't give a fuck what some random lawyer thinks of me for it. Most of my self-worth is derived from my hobbies, my family and my network of friends. I've never gone on a date or met a friend and talked about my job beyond a quick sentence when asked what I do. I really think that when people tie their entire being down to their job, they get very miserable when things don't go their way or they mess up at work.

I'll end my soapbox by saying that many of the negative traits I've portrayed about myself (no talent, lack of risk appetite, not giving a shit etc.) are probably traits that you don't want to lean into if you want to be uber successful.

This. 100%. Perspective is very important, paramount. The anxiety lies not in the event itself, but in our perception, our ability to see it and willingly inflict harm on ourselves.

Too many cry babies and overachievers at T14s who cry getting a 8/10 on their quizzes. That is not life.

[cafesupreme]

I am very happy being a biglaw attorney at a NYC V5. Here are the few traits that I think have helped me.

[...]

This is a great post. I love that you prefaced it by telling us you're at a V5 too so that we know your opinion has value.

[glitched]

Don't care too much. Don't care when you make a mistake. Don't care if a partner or senior gets annoyed. Don't feel guilty for not working on some weekends or in the evenings. Don't feel guilty for prioritizing your life over your work.

But on the other side, do continue to produce the best work product you can, stay friendly with everyone, and be as responsive as possible (to a reasonable degree).

I think if you have the personality to do both, you can be happy and successful at a firm. Do your best, but be okay if you're not the best or always at your best.

[objctnyrhnr]

Are there really that many professions that pay remotely what biglaw attorneys make that the people calling biglaw lawyering “paper pushing,” etc. think are worlds more valuable to society?

If so, what if you exclude professions designed for people who excel at STEM-type studies/tasks?

I’m just kind of tired of all of those who say “yeah biglaw does nothing for society.” I mean isnt facilitating the ability for entities to adjudicate and resolve disputes at least as valuable as the vast majority of other large-ish 200k/year+ professional industries?

[jimmythecatdied6]

I am very happy being a biglaw attorney at a NYC V5. Here are the few traits that I think have helped me.

[...]

This is a great post. I love that you prefaced it by telling us you're at a V5 too so that we know your opinion has value.

Well you need to distinguish between the losers and the wannabe's somehow.

[CovidLurker]

I am very happy being a biglaw attorney at a NYC V5. Here are the few traits that I think have helped me.

[...]

This is a great post. I love that you prefaced it by telling us you're at a V5 too so that we know your opinion has value.

Lol fair enough. I guess I'm not as free of ego/pretension as I'd like to believe.

[s1m4]

I wouldn't call good biglaw lawyers paper pushers, at least in my group. OK, is our team providing the money? No. but take any VC or small M&A deal/exit where you represent a tech company - I really think that once the money people say "this is how much we will pay" I'm really driving everything else. No way they do a deal without a person like me driving them through the process (though I agree that there are many others like me).

I think of paper pusher more like a clerk that just fills information into a spreadsheet.

[Anonymous User]

a "truly wealthy" person who expects to contribute something useful to society as a whole

Off topic, but I can't stop laughing at what what an oxymoron this is The only person I can think of that fits this is George Soros and mayyyyybe Bill Gates.

[JCougar]

One thing and one thing only, low expectations from life. I don't mean this in a pejorative way either. It's just a fact. Lower your expectations until you're grateful.

This is an extremely underrated perspective. Put your life expectations into perspective. For almost all of human history, work has been a grueling thing that people with power force other people to do whether they like it or not. It has not been a privilege tailored to someone's self-actualization goals; nor has it been a means to self-actualization.

I get that the human consciousness can have difficult time finding meaning in sorting through, analyzing, writing, and editing reams of documents day in and day out, when what they're really building doesn't immediately materialize before their eyes. But it's either that or manual labor at 1/10th the pay. Take your pick. Take the higher-paying job, and lower your expectations so you're not expecting your work to reward or fulfill you. It's just a duty that you have to do...just like exercising if you want to lose weight. It's supposed to hurt.

[bodylikeatwizzler]

I should have just responded to this instead of the above. It is a good post. The counterpart is that people who don't need to do any lowering will find themselves happier in Biglaw. Not everyone starts with the expectation that the relevant social comparator is a "truly wealthy" person who expects to contribute something useful to society as a whole. I would think that most people start with expectations below that point, but maybe that's wrong.

That's all I'm saying. Thanks.

--Social status is "very low" for biglawyers? I mean, I guess so in pretty narrow circumstances. Like maybe a 10k/plate fundraiser? Open a phone book (or digital equivalent). Pick 10 business at random. Restaurants, bars, whatever. Imagine you walk in as a biglawyer. Will you feel "very low" social status in that setting? 10/10 the answer is no. In absolute terms any lawyer is at least medium social status. Biglawers are high status. In relative terms I can see how biglaw would be "very low." So I guess the personality trait your selecting for is "don't be someone who sees < top 10% social status as very low"?

It seems like you define social status based on income. You think you wouldn't have much social status at a 10k/plate dinner, because everyone else is richer than you, but you would have a lot of social status among a group of small business owners. If you read sociology books, you'll see that money plays a small factor when determining someone's social status. Other factors, "decency," trustworthiness, being a mensch, not being an asshole . . . are more important.

Unfortunately, the opposite of these traits are often associated with lawyers. Search google for "social perception of lawyers" to find studies. If a popularity contest were held with a lawyer and nine random business owners, I would wager the lawyer would place in the bottom 50%, probably lower. https://lafleur.marketing/blog/overcomi ... attorneys/ or https://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/view ... law-review

It doesn't mean you have to get down about this. Apply the technique of lowering your expectations here. Instead of striving for "social status," which might be hard for lawyers to attain, strive for "status within the legal community." That is attainable. For example, if you're a Cravath associate, you will have status within any group of lawyers. All lawyers know what Cravath is. Same with numerous other legal accomplishments. You see what I mean? Lower your expectations and you go from possibly miserable, because you're upset because someone called you a "scumbag lawyer" at a social outing, to happy because you attended a legal event where everyone fawned over you and your prestigious job.

a "truly wealthy" person who expects to contribute something useful to society as a whole

Off topic, but I can't stop laughing at what what an oxymoron this is The only person I can think of that fits this is George Soros and mayyyyybe Bill Gates.

You should broaden your perspective. Most of the wealthy got their money by inventing something new, a new product, a new service, that the world wanted enough to pay them a lot of money. If you do that you've contributed something useful to society. I'm not only thinking of Bezos or Musk but also that guy who owns the corner store that everyone shops at. That's a contribution IMHO.

I think of paper pusher more like a clerk that just fills information into a spreadsheet.

That's data entry, but isn't part of the M&A deal you work on literally entering stuff into the issues spreadsheet or word doc chart? The work of lawyers can all be broken down into a series of tedious, bureaucratic and detail-oriented steps. The most annoying lawyer on a team is the person who wants to have deep thoughts and reinvent the wheel instead of just doing the work.

One thing I forgot to add to my original list, is abusive bosses. The legal profession has one of the worst superior-subordinate dynamics, I think because of all the type-A and aggressive personalities. Superiors act like assholes. Complete insufferable assholes. This is well known. For example, remember the scene in "How I met your mother" where the biglawyer got so fed up with his boss's bullshit that he punched him in the face? [Edit: I remembered this wrong. He clenched his fist to punch the boss but didn't and cried instead. Here's the clip, lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nTPUhw ... nel=ivan24 ]But again, just lower your expectations and be grateful for what you have, and you won't be miserable. Expect abuse so you're not upset when it happens. Be grateful for the salary, which is decent, and those moments where your boss shows gratitude and appreciation.

I don't have anything more to say beyond this, and I don't want to get into an argument, so I'll drop it here.

[feminist.supporter]

One thing and one thing only, low expectations from life. I don't mean this in a pejorative way either. It's just a fact. Lower your expectations until you're grateful.

This is an extremely underrated perspective. Put your life expectations into perspective. For almost all of human history, work has been a grueling thing that people with power force other people to do whether they like it or not. It has not been a privilege tailored to someone's self-actualization goals; nor has it been a means to self-actualization.

I get that the human consciousness can have difficult time finding meaning in sorting through, analyzing, writing, and editing reams of documents day in and day out, when what they're really building doesn't immediately materialize before their eyes. But it's either that or manual labor at 1/10th the pay. Take your pick. Take the higher-paying job, and lower your expectations so you're not expecting your work to reward or fulfill you. It's just a duty that you have to do...just like exercising if you want to lose weight. It's supposed to hurt.

This, also 100%. Anyone who wants to complain should pick up Viktor Frankl's Men's Search for Meaning and Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago. I suspect if read with a serious heart and effort, one will appreciate life much more deeply.

The biggest problem with the miserable big law associates is that they have been "succeeding" and "overachieving" their whole lives to an extent that it becomes their default mode; they think "it's the way it should be." They don't know what failure is, what darkness looks like, and how vivid the dark color of abyss is. Now suddenly in an environment that they are not the center of the stage where praises and spotlights are no longer constantly given to them, they are also the first ones to feel lost.

A single change of attitude will go a long way: I am employed in the middle of a pandemic with a big fat paycheck whereas millions of people are suffering on a daily basis, whose headaches and fears will be solved entirely simply by trading lives with myself.

[JCougar]

One thing and one thing only, low expectations from life. I don't mean this in a pejorative way either. It's just a fact. Lower your expectations until you're grateful.

This is an extremely underrated perspective. Put your life expectations into perspective. For almost all of human history, work has been a grueling thing that people with power force other people to do whether they like it or not. It has not been a privilege tailored to someone's self-actualization goals; nor has it been a means to self-actualization.

I get that the human consciousness can have difficult time finding meaning in sorting through, analyzing, writing, and editing reams of documents day in and day out, when what they're really building doesn't immediately materialize before their eyes. But it's either that or manual labor at 1/10th the pay. Take your pick. Take the higher-paying job, and lower your expectations so you're not expecting your work to reward or fulfill you. It's just a duty that you have to do...just like exercising if you want to lose weight. It's supposed to hurt.

This, also 100%. Anyone who wants to complain should pick up Viktor Frankl's Men's Search for Meaning and Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago. I suspect if read with a serious heart and effort, one will appreciate life much more deeply.

The biggest problem with the miserable big law associates is that they have been "succeeding" and "overachieving" their whole lives to an extent that it becomes their default mode; they think "it's the way it should be." They don't know what failure is, what darkness looks like, and how vivid the dark color of abyss is. Now suddenly in an environment that they are not the center of the stage where praises and spotlights are no longer constantly given to them, they are also the first ones to feel lost.

A single change of attitude will go a long way: I am employed in the middle of a pandemic with a big fat paycheck whereas millions of people are suffering on a daily basis, whose headaches and fears will be solved entirely simply by trading lives with myself.

Man's Search for Meaning has been an inspiration for me for a while. Thanks for bringing that up!

[JCougar]

I mean, most STEM people spend their time writing up tedious reports, etc. Doing and redoing experiments, doing background research, tweaking little details until they get it just right, then testing their hypotheses (or in the case of engineers, the product they're building), only to see it blow up and fail because of one tiny little glitch, and then you have to start again.

Not to mention other white collar jobs in business (other than maybe sales). Which is mostly the exact same paper pushing as lawyers, but with even lower-level cognitive content.

The people who aren't happy in law would likely not be happy in any white collar profession.

The answer: just stop looking for happiness and fulfillment in your job. Do it because it's your duty, not because you want to. The time for enjoying the spoils is with your family/hobbies/on the weekends, or when you retire.

[s1m4]

I should have just responded to this instead of the above. It is a good post. The counterpart is that people who don't need to do any lowering will find themselves happier in Biglaw. Not everyone starts with the expectation that the relevant social comparator is a "truly wealthy" person who expects to contribute something useful to society as a whole. I would think that most people start with expectations below that point, but maybe that's wrong.

That's all I'm saying. Thanks.

--Social status is "very low" for biglawyers? I mean, I guess so in pretty narrow circumstances. Like maybe a 10k/plate fundraiser? Open a phone book (or digital equivalent). Pick 10 business at random. Restaurants, bars, whatever. Imagine you walk in as a biglawyer. Will you feel "very low" social status in that setting? 10/10 the answer is no. In absolute terms any lawyer is at least medium social status. Biglawers are high status. In relative terms I can see how biglaw would be "very low." So I guess the personality trait your selecting for is "don't be someone who sees < top 10% social status as very low"?

It seems like you define social status based on income. You think you wouldn't have much social status at a 10k/plate dinner, because everyone else is richer than you, but you would have a lot of social status among a group of small business owners. If you read sociology books, you'll see that money plays a small factor when determining someone's social status. Other factors, "decency," trustworthiness, being a mensch, not being an asshole . . . are more important.

Unfortunately, the opposite of these traits are often associated with lawyers. Search google for "social perception of lawyers" to find studies. If a popularity contest were held with a lawyer and nine random business owners, I would wager the lawyer would place in the bottom 50%, probably lower. https://lafleur.marketing/blog/overcomi ... attorneys/ or https://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/view ... law-review

It doesn't mean you have to get down about this. Apply the technique of lowering your expectations here. Instead of striving for "social status," which might be hard for lawyers to attain, strive for "status within the legal community." That is attainable. For example, if you're a Cravath associate, you will have status within any group of lawyers. All lawyers know what Cravath is. Same with numerous other legal accomplishments. You see what I mean? Lower your expectations and you go from possibly miserable, because you're upset because someone called you a "scumbag lawyer" at a social outing, to happy because you attended a legal event where everyone fawned over you and your prestigious job.

a "truly wealthy" person who expects to contribute something useful to society as a whole

Off topic, but I can't stop laughing at what what an oxymoron this is The only person I can think of that fits this is George Soros and mayyyyybe Bill Gates.

You should broaden your perspective. Most of the wealthy got their money by inventing something new, a new product, a new service, that the world wanted enough to pay them a lot of money. If you do that you've contributed something useful to society. I'm not only thinking of Bezos or Musk but also that guy who owns the corner store that everyone shops at. That's a contribution IMHO.

I think of paper pusher more like a clerk that just fills information into a spreadsheet.

That's data entry, but isn't part of the M&A deal you work on literally entering stuff into the issues spreadsheet or word doc chart? The work of lawyers can all be broken down into a series of tedious, bureaucratic and detail-oriented steps. The most annoying lawyer on a team is the person who wants to have deep thoughts and reinvent the wheel instead of just doing the work.

You sound like a junior who works on mega deals. No, on the smaller sell side M&A deals I'm doing im negotiating the business points on the sale, the acquihire component if there is one, and doing a whole lot of stuff these people don't know how to do.

Also, theoretically, you can break down any task into a series of detail-oriented steps, like writing a book (next.. he pressed key X...).

I don't know what you mean by "bureaucratic" steps.

I feel like once you move up in big law it because pretty fun.

[Anonymous User]

I wonder if there's an ideal MBTI type. I am (allegedly) an INTJ and I am absolutely miserable in my big law job.

Intp here. Hate it too. Mostly the weekend work. If I could just work 60 hours and unplug for 2 days I could do it.

Just as a counterpoint, I'm an INTJ, senior associate in biglaw, and I like what I do.

Original INTJ here - I think I'm just stuck in a toxic practice group honestly.

[Anonymous User]

I am very happy being a biglaw attorney at a NYC V5. Here are the few traits that I think have helped me.

Self-awareness: I realize that I have absolutely no skills, talents or abilities that set me apart from the pack. I'm of only moderate intelligence, I'm willing to work only moderately hard and I can stomach only a moderate amount of risk . However, I still want to be paid a lot of money, even though I have none of the qualities that warrant being paid such a high salary. Thus, I'm pretty grateful that I'm making as much money as I am, and it doesn't bother me that I work a lot of hours. In my eyes, I have the attitude of "I can't believe these clowns are paying me this much money to do this shit lol".

Perspective: I grew up middle class, went to public school and am the son of immigrants. Most of my high school friends live mundane lives and many are struggling, working 50 hours a week in stressful jobs for $40-60k/year with a family. For most of my childhood, we never had a household income over 100K and my parents still managed to raise and send two kids to college by sacrificing basically all comforts in life. I'm keenly aware of how much worse my life could be and that currently I'm at the best position I've ever been in. I'm grateful that biglaw gives me flexibility in hours, and I never feel financial insecurity. We are in the very rare 1% of America that lives a pretty decadent lifestyle.

Relaxed/Don't give a shit: I want to do a good job, and I work hard to deliver the best product I can. But, if I fall short or make a mistake - I really don't give a shit. You're just not that important - most of the time you're an afterthought to the Company/Bank you're working for. If you don't meet a deadline or don't draft a doc perfectly, no one will die, no one will get fired, no one will lose their home etc. The worst possible outcome is some megacompany will lose a little bit of money or waste a little money in extra legal fees. I'm not going to lose sleep over this.

Self-worth: Now that I do interviews/recruiting - I can see that so many of these kids entire self-worth is tied into their careers/prestige. This forum doesn't help. First, let me say this - if you're a biglaw transactional attorney, you'll never impress me. All that means is you took the absolute safest route in life with a very well trodden path laid out for you. You were either not talented or brave enough to try and go after what you truly wanted in life.

So, working at Cravath over DLA Piper doesn't make you a better or sexier person. I'd rather work 2000 hours at DLA Piper than 3000 hours at Cravath any day, and I really don't give a fuck what some random lawyer thinks of me for it. Most of my self-worth is derived from my hobbies, my family and my network of friends. I've never gone on a date or met a friend and talked about my job beyond a quick sentence when asked what I do. I really think that when people tie their entire being down to their job, they get very miserable when things don't go their way or they mess up at work.

I'll end my soapbox by saying that many of the negative traits I've portrayed about myself (no talent, lack of risk appetite, not giving a shit etc.) are probably traits that you don't want to lean into if you want to be uber successful.

Great post and fuck the bolded part stung a bit because it couldn't be any more true and i'm slowly coming to that realization. Now time to accept it.

[lolwutpar]

I am very happy being a biglaw attorney at a NYC V5. Here are the few traits that I think have helped me.

Self-awareness: I realize that I have absolutely no skills, talents or abilities that set me apart from the pack. I'm of only moderate intelligence, I'm willing to work only moderately hard and I can stomach only a moderate amount of risk . However, I still want to be paid a lot of money, even though I have none of the qualities that warrant being paid such a high salary. Thus, I'm pretty grateful that I'm making as much money as I am, and it doesn't bother me that I work a lot of hours. In my eyes, I have the attitude of "I can't believe these clowns are paying me this much money to do this shit lol".

Perspective: I grew up middle class, went to public school and am the son of immigrants. Most of my high school friends live mundane lives and many are struggling, working 50 hours a week in stressful jobs for $40-60k/year with a family. For most of my childhood, we never had a household income over 100K and my parents still managed to raise and send two kids to college by sacrificing basically all comforts in life. I'm keenly aware of how much worse my life could be and that currently I'm at the best position I've ever been in. I'm grateful that biglaw gives me flexibility in hours, and I never feel financial insecurity. We are in the very rare 1% of America that lives a pretty decadent lifestyle.

Relaxed/Don't give a shit: I want to do a good job, and I work hard to deliver the best product I can. But, if I fall short or make a mistake - I really don't give a shit. You're just not that important - most of the time you're an afterthought to the Company/Bank you're working for. If you don't meet a deadline or don't draft a doc perfectly, no one will die, no one will get fired, no one will lose their home etc. The worst possible outcome is some megacompany will lose a little bit of money or waste a little money in extra legal fees. I'm not going to lose sleep over this.

Self-worth: Now that I do interviews/recruiting - I can see that so many of these kids entire self-worth is tied into their careers/prestige. This forum doesn't help. First, let me say this - if you're a biglaw transactional attorney, you'll never impress me. All that means is you took the absolute safest route in life with a very well trodden path laid out for you. You were either not talented or brave enough to try and go after what you truly wanted in life.

So, working at Cravath over DLA Piper doesn't make you a better or sexier person. I'd rather work 2000 hours at DLA Piper than 3000 hours at Cravath any day, and I really don't give a fuck what some random lawyer thinks of me for it. Most of my self-worth is derived from my hobbies, my family and my network of friends. I've never gone on a date or met a friend and talked about my job beyond a quick sentence when asked what I do. I really think that when people tie their entire being down to their job, they get very miserable when things don't go their way or they mess up at work.

I'll end my soapbox by saying that many of the negative traits I've portrayed about myself (no talent, lack of risk appetite, not giving a shit etc.) are probably traits that you don't want to lean into if you want to be uber successful.

Great post and fuck the bolded part stung a bit because it couldn't be any more true and i'm slowly coming to that realization. Now time to accept it.

Oh no, you have job that pays gobs of money that will allow you to be debt free, buy a house, etc. in short order.

[chilover691]

Self-worth: Now that I do interviews/recruiting - I can see that so many of these kids entire self-worth is tied into their careers/prestige. This forum doesn't help. First, let me say this - if you're a biglaw transactional attorney, you'll never impress me. All that means is you took the absolute safest route in life with a very well trodden path laid out for you. You were either not talented or brave enough to try and go after what you truly wanted in life.

So, working at Cravath over DLA Piper doesn't make you a better or sexier person. I'd rather work 2000 hours at DLA Piper than 3000 hours at Cravath any day, and I really don't give a fuck what some random lawyer thinks of me for it. Most of my self-worth is derived from my hobbies, my family and my network of friends. I've never gone on a date or met a friend and talked about my job beyond a quick sentence when asked what I do. I really think that when people tie their entire being down to their job, they get very miserable when things don't go their way or they mess up at work.

I'll end my soapbox by saying that many of the negative traits I've portrayed about myself (no talent, lack of risk appetite, not giving a shit etc.) are probably traits that you don't want to lean into if you want to be uber successful.

Great post and fuck the bolded part stung a bit because it couldn't be any more true and i'm slowly coming to that realization. Now time to accept it.

Oh no, you have job that pays gobs of money that will allow you to be debt free, buy a house, etc. in short order.

I disagree with the bolded if you're a minority, I don't think it's the safest route for them. Biglaw is hard to get into it and harder to stay in for minorities, and there's a lot of mental toll involved with getting into law school, going through law school, and then working in biglaw that I think is different for minorities. Still agree with the rest of your comments though

[Jchance]

The answer: just stop looking for happiness and fulfillment in your job. Do it because it's your duty for your fat paychecks, not because you want to. The time for enjoying the spoils is with your family/hobbies/on the weekends, or when you retire (early, if you save up enough).

Fixed that for you, but otherwise I agree. IMHO that's what it means to be a professional--it's not personal.

[randomthrowaway]

Some of y'all are way too worried about layperson prestige, the perception of the work you do (i.e., whether it's classified as paper pushing or not) and proving how important you are to the transaction you're working on. I'm not surprised because most lawyers are neurotic and self-loathing, but you'd be a lot happier if you just chilled out and enjoyed the money.

For a single earner, the cutoff for top 1% income in the US is $361,020. That's attainable starting as a midlevel in biglaw. If you make it to income partner, let alone equity partner, you are crushing that figure.

Sure, some people might make more, so what? That doesn't mean you're not making an absurd amount of money that most people can only dream about.

[Anonymous User]

Self-worth: Now that I do interviews/recruiting - I can see that so many of these kids entire self-worth is tied into their careers/prestige. This forum doesn't help. First, let me say this - if you're a biglaw transactional attorney, you'll never impress me. All that means is you took the absolute safest route in life with a very well trodden path laid out for you. You were either not talented or brave enough to try and go after what you truly wanted in life.

So, working at Cravath over DLA Piper doesn't make you a better or sexier person. I'd rather work 2000 hours at DLA Piper than 3000 hours at Cravath any day, and I really don't give a fuck what some random lawyer thinks of me for it. Most of my self-worth is derived from my hobbies, my family and my network of friends. I've never gone on a date or met a friend and talked about my job beyond a quick sentence when asked what I do. I really think that when people tie their entire being down to their job, they get very miserable when things don't go their way or they mess up at work.

I'll end my soapbox by saying that many of the negative traits I've portrayed about myself (no talent, lack of risk appetite, not giving a shit etc.) are probably traits that you don't want to lean into if you want to be uber successful.

Great post and fuck the bolded part stung a bit because it couldn't be any more true and i'm slowly coming to that realization. Now time to accept it.

Oh no, you have job that pays gobs of money that will allow you to be debt free, buy a house, etc. in short order.

I disagree with the bolded if you're a minority, I don't think it's the safest route for them. Biglaw is hard to get into it and harder to stay in for minorities, and there's a lot of mental toll involved with getting into law school, going through law school, and then working in biglaw that I think is different for minorities. Still agree with the rest of your comments though

I think the bolded part is uniquely true for me, but I also think there are a lot more people out there like me in BigLaw than many realize. My family falls into the category of “truly wealthy” that is apparently unattainable through the law. I went to law school with millions already to my name, but I was 21, and quite frankly to embarrassed to touch it for anything other than eduction. I ended up in big law because for me it was a way to justify my inheritance. It is banal, but at least I earn a big salary and grind hard at work instead of sitting on a beach all day. That being said, I am fortunate enough to have a big enough backstop that once I gain a little more experience I plan on leaving and starting my own business. Maybe I just use it as a crutch to justify an unjustifiable inheritance, but for me BigLaw gives me a sense that I have put in a genuine effort to work for some of what I have. Sorry if I come off as an entitled ass in this post. Maybe I am.