Dealing with first years who don't *get it* Forum

[stoopkid13]

I mean, I would be honest with the partner about what's going on. Say you'd love to give them more work, but frankly they aren't always reachable and occasionally there are issues that indicate they need closer supervision on the assignments.

Personally, I would not speak to the partner unless they ask or you need the partner to step in. I get the inclination to CYA, but drawing the partner deeper into associate drama seems like a lose-lose. Part of the senior associates job is the manage the juniors so partners don't have to.

"I'll take care of it" is usually a better response than "I'll take care of it, but..." IME

[Anonymous User]

I had an associate like this and she ended up escalating it all the way up, which was ridiculous. Keep good paper trail on her/him, and do put it on record that there's performance issue that's causing this situation. After that incident, I raise any serious performance issue ahead of time and first hand, and I don't wait until the junior beats me to the punch on this. I used to hesitate until I realized my good will only screwed me over. It's business, and they should be given reasonable opportunities to improve, but if they don't, ask for someone else.

[Anonymous User]

Double post

[Anonymous User]

You can also just send an email? Biglaw is weird about people being expected to answer random unexpected calls whenever the mood strikes some random mid-level.

Agreed. My midlevels and even partners usually send me a chat first telling me they are about to call/making sure I'm available. It takes two seconds.

[Elston Gunn]

I had an associate like this and she ended up escalating it all the way up, which was ridiculous. Keep good paper trail on her/him, and do put it on record that there's performance issue that's causing this situation. After that incident, I raise any serious performance issue ahead of time and first hand, and I don't wait until the junior beats me to the punch on this. I used to hesitate until I realized my good will only screwed me over. It's business, and they should be given reasonable opportunities to improve, but if they don't, ask for someone else.

Wait, one time a junior went over your head and now you always escalate whenever a junior has “performance issues” without talking to the junior first? If so, I’m really glad I never worked with you as a junior, Jesus. I guess, depending on what you mean by serious, and whether you talk to the junior first, it may be more reasonable.

Unless you are working with very shitty partners, what is the actual risk of a junior going over your head? The partner presumably already knows and trusts you, so things would have to already be bad for this to meaningfully burn you (at least ime).

[target_corp]

I'm gonna counter what seems to be the majority here, and say that if you're having these issues with multiple first years, then something's going on that (1) you're not telling us or (2) you're not aware of. Maybe your problem is just run-of-the-mill entitlement/junior realization that law is really boring, but it's amazing to me the number of attorneys who will claim that someone is bad or hard to work with who are themselves incapable of communicating clearly, inspiring rapport or otherwise managing effectively. Problems don't occur in a vacuum.

Also, want to reiterate that if you're calling someone 10 times, unless the call relates to something urgent, it's probably more constructive to call once or twice, leave a message, and then email. If they don't respond after that, it's on them.

[jotarokujo]

gotta come down hard on the first year. actually explicitly say what he/she's doing wrong, especially with respect to substantive/conceptual mistakes.

if they continue to ignore that, then consider going up to the partner


i disagree with others that "attitude is the issue". biglaw is pretty objectively shit for most people, are juniors supposed to pretend like it's not? i actually hate that much more than the opposite. the issue is that the work is bad.

[johndhi]

here's TCR: try not to think about this emotionally, but as an opportunity to look good to the partner (you strike me as someone who is gunning for partner). if you were a junior partner, what would you do in this situation -- how could you make the work product overall of the team and the morale of the team better?

IMO it goes like this: you go directly to the associate and talk things out with them, without escalating it or telling anyone else about it. be an adult and explain why you've been giving her the work you've been giving her, and maybe even give her a chance on a minorly more substantive project and see how she does on it. if she fails again, or if you become utterly convinced that she is toxic, then you push for her to be exited from the firm because it's a long term bad investment.

[Anonymous User]

I had an associate like this and she ended up escalating it all the way up, which was ridiculous. Keep good paper trail on her/him, and do put it on record that there's performance issue that's causing this situation. After that incident, I raise any serious performance issue ahead of time and first hand, and I don't wait until the junior beats me to the punch on this. I used to hesitate until I realized my good will only screwed me over. It's business, and they should be given reasonable opportunities to improve, but if they don't, ask for someone else.

Wait, one time a junior went over your head and now you always escalate whenever a junior has “performance issues” without talking to the junior first? If so, I’m really glad I never worked with you as a junior, Jesus. I guess, depending on what you mean by serious, and whether you talk to the junior first, it may be more reasonable.

Unless you are working with very shitty partners, what is the actual risk of a junior going over your head? The partner presumably already knows and trusts you, so things would have to already be bad for this to meaningfully burn you (at least ime).

Please see bolded.

[Casper123]

here's TCR: try not to think about this emotionally, but as an opportunity to look good to the partner (you strike me as someone who is gunning for partner). if you were a junior partner, what would you do in this situation -- how could you make the work product overall of the team and the morale of the team better?

IMO it goes like this: you go directly to the associate and talk things out with them, without escalating it or telling anyone else about it. be an adult and explain why you've been giving her the work you've been giving her, and maybe even give her a chance on a minorly more substantive project and see how she does on it. if she fails again, or if you become utterly convinced that she is toxic, then you push for her to be exited from the firm because it's a long term bad investment.

Boy, that escalated quickly.. I agree with the rest though.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I don't know you and maybe you're a sympathetic soul, but my overbearing-midlevel alarm bell is absolutely blaring.

You're having this problem with a *handful* of first-years? So...five different people don't respect you? Or they're acting bored as shit with what sounds like the boring shit you give them and you're surprised?

I watched a bunch of juniors turn into exactly the kind of midlevels they used to complain about. Mostly their problem was forgetting people who have only worked for a couple months don't know how to do anything, with a pinch of "you need to suffer like I suffered/continue to suffer" thrown in.

It's not that common to actually go to a partner and complain about non-substantive work assignments, but I've definitely heard the other stuff for juniors. "Your work product is shoddy/it looks like you don't care" is often a junior with little or no experience at some task being thrown to the wolves ("You've only done diligence? Okay take the first crack at the merger agreement. Here's some precedent. Don't worry, I'll totally be available to help.") and "you blew this deadline" is often (1) someone already overworked who doesn't feel like they can say no and doesn't understand how long something will take them or (2) some asshole who never says when they want something and declares the uncommunicated deadline "blown" when it doesn't come it by the time they expected.

Echoing others to say that unless you are really up against a deadline and something genuinely can't wait even a few minutes--and for the record, this is something that I would say is true for me maybe once a month--do not call people unprompted and get mad when they don't pick up. I spend most of my time actively in the middle of something. Send an email asking for a call back or better yet, set up a time if you need to. People who do this are effectively asking you to subordinate everything to them when they feel like it. Surprise, surprise: that attitude tends to create a ton of management issues.

When I was a junior I had a midlevel who complained about my work product more than once and then just...keep staffing me on her deals, six or seven more times. Not that there aren't good and bad juniors, but some people just mesh together better than others. I realize it's not always possible, but when I became a midlevel I wound up with a lot more flexibility in picking my juniors than people above me claimed they had. So now 90% of the time I just staff the ones I like (by request, not order) and don't bother the ones I don't. Sure, sometimes you get stuck with someone entirely phoning it in. But they're not all awful. If everyone smells like shit, it's probably stuck to your shoe.

Sincerely,
Your Fellow Midlevel

[Anonymous User]

I don't know you and maybe you're a sympathetic soul, but my overbearing-midlevel alarm bell is absolutely blaring.

You're having this problem with a *handful* of first-years? So...five different people don't respect you? Or they're acting bored as shit with what sounds like the boring shit you give them and you're surprised?

I watched a bunch of juniors turn into exactly the kind of midlevels they used to complain about. Mostly their problem was forgetting people who have only worked for a couple months don't know how to do anything, with a pinch of "you need to suffer like I suffered/continue to suffer" thrown in.

It's not that common to actually go to a partner and complain about non-substantive work assignments, but I've definitely heard the other stuff for juniors. "Your work product is shoddy/it looks like you don't care" is often a junior with little or no experience at some task being thrown to the wolves ("You've only done diligence? Okay take the first crack at the merger agreement. Here's some precedent. Don't worry, I'll totally be available to help.") and "you blew this deadline" is often (1) someone already overworked who doesn't feel like they can say no and doesn't understand how long something will take them or (2) some asshole who never says when they want something and declares the uncommunicated deadline "blown" when it doesn't come it by the time they expected.

Echoing others to say that unless you are really up against a deadline and something genuinely can't wait even a few minutes--and for the record, this is something that I would say is true for me maybe once a month--do not call people unprompted and get mad when they don't pick up. I spend most of my time actively in the middle of something. Send an email asking for a call back or better yet, set up a time if you need to. People who do this are effectively asking you to subordinate everything to them when they feel like it. Surprise, surprise: that attitude tends to create a ton of management issues.

When I was a junior I had a midlevel who complained about my work product more than once and then just...keep staffing me on her deals, six or seven more times. Not that there aren't good and bad juniors, but some people just mesh together better than others. I realize it's not always possible, but when I became a midlevel I wound up with a lot more flexibility in picking my juniors than people above me claimed they had. So now 90% of the time I just staff the ones I like (by request, not order) and don't bother the ones I don't. Sure, sometimes you get stuck with someone entirely phoning it in. But they're not all awful. If everyone smells like shit, it's probably stuck to your shoe.

Sincerely,
Your Fellow Midlevel

I will provide an alternate view, although the above comment is not without merit. I have overseen and managed various junior associates, staff, etc, and run different teams before. Yes, you do have some people that mesh better with you than others; yes, maybe you are not managing appropriately; but also, there are situations where the junior associate/staff is truly toxic. It's better to recognize those instances early, and when you do, it is better to remove them from your team and/or staff them where they can thrive, instead of trying to fix them. Active, early intervention is also a part of management skill. Sometimes, everyone smells and it's not you. I've definitely had a situation where the whole team was terrible (while I questioned whether I was mismanaging), but I've also managed a very healthy team without any problem, so... sometimes you just have a bad team.

[Dahl]

Really curious about how the partner presented this to you OP. Was it “can you believe this first year? Now go deal with it.” Or was it “why aren’t you giving her substantive work?” Would be shocked by the latter unless the partner is related to/somehow friends with the first year.

You might be expecting too much of first years generally or not explicitly setting boundaries and guidelines, but a first year complaining directly to a partner about not getting substantive work is wild.

[Anonymous User]

Was it “can you believe this first year? Now go deal with it.” Or was it “why aren’t you giving her substantive work?” Would be shocked by the latter unless the partner is related to/somehow friends with the first year.

I mean, I could also imagine a scenario where it was just a casual thing that the associate mentioned during a lunch or something ("How's your first year going?" "It's going fine, although it's a real bummer that I'm not getting any substantive work") versus an actual formal complaint. OP isn't super clear about the circumstances in which it was brought up.

[2013]

Was it “can you believe this first year? Now go deal with it.” Or was it “why aren’t you giving her substantive work?” Would be shocked by the latter unless the partner is related to/somehow friends with the first year.

I mean, I could also imagine a scenario where it was just a casual thing that the associate mentioned during a lunch or something ("How's your first year going?" "It's going fine, although it's a real bummer that I'm not getting any substantive work") versus an actual formal complaint. OP isn't super clear about the circumstances in which it was brought up.

First year singled out OP. Sounds more like a complaint than some general comment said in passing.

[Anonymous User]

You can also just send an email? Biglaw is weird about people being expected to answer random unexpected calls whenever the mood strikes some random mid-level.

Seconding this (and not just with respect to midlevels, IMO). It’s especially frustrating now that we’re all WFH so people are just calling my cell phone with no warning. I have ADHD and would be infinitely more productive if the biglaw culture was more supportive of letting people actually focus on what they’re doing rather than rewarding constant but needless availability. I recognize that corporate work is different, but in litigation it is almost never necessary for someone to immediately respond to emails and calls.

[Anonymous User]

You can also just send an email? Biglaw is weird about people being expected to answer random unexpected calls whenever the mood strikes some random mid-level.

Seconding this (and not just with respect to midlevels, IMO). It’s especially frustrating now that we’re all WFH so people are just calling my cell phone with no warning. I have ADHD and would be infinitely more productive if the biglaw culture was more supportive of letting people actually focus on what they’re doing rather than rewarding constant but needless availability. I recognize that corporate work is different, but in litigation it is almost never necessary for someone to immediately respond to emails and calls.

I couldn’t agree more. If it is not either pressing (truly pressing - we need it in 10 minutes) or wildly complicated such that writing it out is low value, don’t call me out of the blue. And on the latter item, schedule a call with me, even if it’s a note by email or chat at 1:50 to say “Are you free at 2 to discuss XYZ?”

My efficiency has really dropped since I started working with a senior who is terrible about this. Whenever I pop up in his mind, he is calling me. I’ve started ignoring many of the calls unless I’m truly not doing anything else important at all.

[Anonymous User]

You can also just send an email? Biglaw is weird about people being expected to answer random unexpected calls whenever the mood strikes some random mid-level.

Maybe unpopular move but unless it's literally the one partner I like working for a handful of associates I like working with, or if it's crazy times (like the day of a signing or closing), I always let calls go to VM. Like I treat them the same way I treat a spam caller. Email me or leave a VM and I call back, but if you just leave it as a missed call and don't follow up I assume it wasn't important.

I always get positive comments on my responsiveness since I'm hyper-responsive to emails, so don't think this is crippling me (yet). It also has the benefit of making some people I hate working with less likely to want to work with me, which is a win.

[Anonymous User]

I guess I'm really surprised by some of the comments about phone calls. One of the big things I was taught as a junior was to pick up the phone right away if I'm in the office and also respond to emails right away. Even now that I'm outside of biglaw, I still operate the same way. I expect my day to be filled with random phone calls and emails. At night I have a chance to focus on writing. Now that I'm managing others, I do call more than email because it takes longer to draft an email. When I have ten things in my head that I need to delegate to others to do, I can get that out in minutes over the phone (or, alternatively, chat, since teleworking started and we have that capability). I think if you're a subordinate, your job is to make your superior's job easier, not vice versa. So if my boss is asking me to do something, I'm doing everything I can to make his job easier without worrying about whether his way of telling me was the most convenient for me.

[Anonymous User]

I guess I'm really surprised by some of the comments about phone calls. One of the big things I was taught as a junior was to pick up the phone right away if I'm in the office and also respond to emails right away. Even now that I'm outside of biglaw, I still operate the same way. I expect my day to be filled with random phone calls and emails. At night I have a chance to focus on writing. Now that I'm managing others, I do call more than email because it takes longer to draft an email. When I have ten things in my head that I need to delegate to others to do, I can get that out in minutes over the phone (or, alternatively, chat, since teleworking started and we have that capability). I think if you're a subordinate, your job is to make your superior's job easier, not vice versa. So if my boss is asking me to do something, I'm doing everything I can to make his job easier without worrying about whether his way of telling me was the most convenient for me.

if someone calls you should answer, of course, but repeatedly calling at your convenience and without even attempting to set aside a time that works for both (that email literally takes seconds), says you're a lazy manager imo.

juniors, like literally everyone else in biglaw, have other deals and workstreams. the narrow-minded and myopic conception that a junior's job is just to make your life easier so they should abide by your every convenience, without any meaningful consideration given for whether that actually reflects best practices as someone managing someone else, is ignoring that a huge part of your job is to make sure we are working well between our deals as well, not just doing what's easiest or most efficient for you.

even when deals are bonkers crazy, people can usually find the time to organize an outlook invitation to speak, even if asking is literally just a 5 second teams message. it's really not that hard.

we will always take that call, but having the view that "person below me should do what's easiest for me, without any thought on process or management otherwise" .. do you like working with people above you that treat and manage you that way? I would guess no.

[Anonymous User]

I guess I'm really surprised by some of the comments about phone calls. One of the big things I was taught as a junior was to pick up the phone right away if I'm in the office and also respond to emails right away. Even now that I'm outside of biglaw, I still operate the same way. I expect my day to be filled with random phone calls and emails. At night I have a chance to focus on writing. Now that I'm managing others, I do call more than email because it takes longer to draft an email. When I have ten things in my head that I need to delegate to others to do, I can get that out in minutes over the phone (or, alternatively, chat, since teleworking started and we have that capability). I think if you're a subordinate, your job is to make your superior's job easier, not vice versa. So if my boss is asking me to do something, I'm doing everything I can to make his job easier without worrying about whether his way of telling me was the most convenient for me.

I get this and it’s a path to success, but IMO it is not the most efficient path to success. I am a respected-but-not-future-partner midlevel and I reject the concept that 9-6 is for me to drop everything when someone more senior than me calls and nights are for writing, as you say. I want to maximize efficiency and focus my efforts in the places that are best for me (most important work, most partner visibility, etc.). Often, that means I ignore the calls from the senior associate who (1) calls way too often and (2) is on the matter where I have very good standing with the partner. By doing it this way, I get more work done during the day and I protect more of my time in the evening.

Many would call this selfish/not being a team player, but I also reject the concept that I owe my biglaw firm anything above and beyond an adequate level of performance, as this job is an economic transaction where both sides of the labor/compensation coin are trying to extract the most from the other while giving up as little as they can get away with.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I guess I'm really surprised by some of the comments about phone calls. One of the big things I was taught as a junior was to pick up the phone right away if I'm in the office and also respond to emails right away. Even now that I'm outside of biglaw, I still operate the same way. I expect my day to be filled with random phone calls and emails. At night I have a chance to focus on writing. Now that I'm managing others, I do call more than email because it takes longer to draft an email. When I have ten things in my head that I need to delegate to others to do, I can get that out in minutes over the phone (or, alternatively, chat, since teleworking started and we have that capability). I think if you're a subordinate, your job is to make your superior's job easier, not vice versa. So if my boss is asking me to do something, I'm doing everything I can to make his job easier without worrying about whether his way of telling me was the most convenient for me.

As a junior it was obvious which seniors saw juniors as nothing more than vessels for their convenience (and got furious when it wasn't possible), but it's always wild to see it written out like this.

[Anonymous User]

Tbh I poop a lot in the morning so I hate when people call me without at least a heads up via email first.

[BottomOfTotem]

Re the phone call thing: there's also a big difference between calling someone whenever you want and getting mad when they don't pick up. I don't think the former is unreasonable -- sometimes it is easier; but the latter is a bit overboard.

[nixy]

I think there’s a difference too btw not picking up and not ever getting back to the caller. I don’t always arrange a call first via email - it depends on who I’m calling - but obviously people aren’t always available right away so I can’t expect them to pick up every time. The issue is more whether not picking up actually creates a breakdown in communication.

(I think it is a little weird to let calls go to voicemail if you’re there and can pick up - that is, you’re not on another call or in a meeting, or frantically churning to meet an imminent deadline on something unrelated, or just, you know, in the bathroom - but there’s no real way that the caller can know if that’s the case. And I do honestly think some of this is generational - I was an older law student and am just honestly surprised at how many younger classmates I had who literally never answer their phone.)