Davis Polk (NY) vs Freshfields (NY) for Corporate Forum

[Anonymous User]

Speaking as a practicing lawyer in NY BigLaw, this is an incredibly easy choice: go to Davis Polk

Speaking as someone who has actually worked at DPW corporate and still has close friends in both those groups, this is an incredibly easy choice: go to Freshfields

Would you be able to elaborate on this?

tl;dr - If you go to DPW you'll probably lateral to a generic in-house position or another law firm anyway. Your personal life will be much better at Freshfields

Sure - for background I’m a senior associate who started at DPW and then lateraled to PW. I generally liked my time there, felt I learned a lot, and left on good terms. And to preface this, my response could probably apply to any number of firms that ppl consider DPW peers based on the experience of my friends and classmates.

DPW offers clear advantages at this point in the OPs career because there are so many unknown variables. Stronger brand in corporate circles, steadier volume of high quality work with high profile clients, and guaranteed to earn non-WLRK top compensation every year without an hours requirement.

But I’ve done the DPW thing myself and have watched many colleagues leave at various points. The reality is that 80% of DPW associates will leave the firm between years 2-5. The plurality of those exits are to other law firms (either in NY or otherwise). At that point, you’re no longer a DPW associate anyway and still too junior to do the “straight to partner or counsel at the new firm” thing. So the only thing that you take with you are the skills you picked up and friends you made (I’ll come back to this). On the non law firm exits, most ppl go to seats that one could get from any decently well known NY firm. Very few ppl scored a position that only DPW could offer (client specifically hires that associate because timing and impressions lined up) and those only go to senior associates (I.e., you have to survive and thrive long enough to get the look which is a challenge in and of itself). I’ve seen more DPW associates leave law altogether and start their own business than be cherry picked by a client.

It’s also not that hard to lateral into DPW. That’s really a myth. In some ways there’s less competition than at more lifestyle firms because most NY associates don’t want to “lateral up” and work worse hours for probably same money. You can count on one hand the number S&C and Cravath associates that want to lateral to DPW. What’s the point? On the other hand I’ve seen plenty of laterals from Cahill, Cadwalader, Paul Hastings, et al.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters in this market is your ability to deliver good work product and how people think of you. And the DPW prestige isn’t always the answer to that. I’ve seen lots of obviously smart DPW associates crash and burn because they were overwhelmed on deals or the culture just wasn’t a right fit. One thing that that distinguishes DPW from its immediate peers is that the firm shies away from direct confrontation. So sure Skadden or S&C or Kirkland may scream at you, but at DPW they’ll just start directing work away from you to better associates. So if you’re a “bad junior” (which is most juniors) then you could be crippled early. Worse, if you’re one of the few good ones, you’ll feel the crush really quickly which makes you more prone to burning out.

So go where you think you’ll perform the best. Most law students don’t know so they pick based on prestige, which is what I did and it worked out fine. But if you know you’ll be happier and do better in a different environment, then just do that. I’ve seen classmates turn down Wachtell for regional firms in other cities and they're happy and fantastic lawyers today. Ultimately you’re the one that actually has to work the hours, not some random poster on TLS

ETA: Obviously this doesn't apply neatly to the litigation side.

I know this thread is old, but could I DM you?

[Anonymous User]

I was between a similar choice a few years ago. It was between Freshfields and a firm like DPW (think below Cravath/Wachtell but above Skadden). Went with DPW because of the great restructuring practice. Happy to discuss more. Very pleased with the decision, though I've since left the firm for unrelated reasons.

[Anonymous User]

Speaking as a practicing lawyer in NY BigLaw, this is an incredibly easy choice: go to Davis Polk

Speaking as someone who has actually worked at DPW corporate and still has close friends in both those groups, this is an incredibly easy choice: go to Freshfields

Would you be able to elaborate on this?

tl;dr - If you go to DPW you'll probably lateral to a generic in-house position or another law firm anyway. Your personal life will be much better at Freshfields

Sure - for background I’m a senior associate who started at DPW and then lateraled to PW. I generally liked my time there, felt I learned a lot, and left on good terms. And to preface this, my response could probably apply to any number of firms that ppl consider DPW peers based on the experience of my friends and classmates.

DPW offers clear advantages at this point in the OPs career because there are so many unknown variables. Stronger brand in corporate circles, steadier volume of high quality work with high profile clients, and guaranteed to earn non-WLRK top compensation every year without an hours requirement.

But I’ve done the DPW thing myself and have watched many colleagues leave at various points. The reality is that 80% of DPW associates will leave the firm between years 2-5. The plurality of those exits are to other law firms (either in NY or otherwise). At that point, you’re no longer a DPW associate anyway and still too junior to do the “straight to partner or counsel at the new firm” thing. So the only thing that you take with you are the skills you picked up and friends you made (I’ll come back to this). On the non law firm exits, most ppl go to seats that one could get from any decently well known NY firm. Very few ppl scored a position that only DPW could offer (client specifically hires that associate because timing and impressions lined up) and those only go to senior associates (I.e., you have to survive and thrive long enough to get the look which is a challenge in and of itself). I’ve seen more DPW associates leave law altogether and start their own business than be cherry picked by a client.

It’s also not that hard to lateral into DPW. That’s really a myth. In some ways there’s less competition than at more lifestyle firms because most NY associates don’t want to “lateral up” and work worse hours for probably same money. You can count on one hand the number S&C and Cravath associates that want to lateral to DPW. What’s the point? On the other hand I’ve seen plenty of laterals from Cahill, Cadwalader, Paul Hastings, et al.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters in this market is your ability to deliver good work product and how people think of you. And the DPW prestige isn’t always the answer to that. I’ve seen lots of obviously smart DPW associates crash and burn because they were overwhelmed on deals or the culture just wasn’t a right fit. One thing that that distinguishes DPW from its immediate peers is that the firm shies away from direct confrontation. So sure Skadden or S&C or Kirkland may scream at you, but at DPW they’ll just start directing work away from you to better associates. So if you’re a “bad junior” (which is most juniors) then you could be crippled early. Worse, if you’re one of the few good ones, you’ll feel the crush really quickly which makes you more prone to burning out.

So go where you think you’ll perform the best. Most law students don’t know so they pick based on prestige, which is what I did and it worked out fine. But if you know you’ll be happier and do better in a different environment, then just do that. I’ve seen classmates turn down Wachtell for regional firms in other cities and they're happy and fantastic lawyers today. Ultimately you’re the one that actually has to work the hours, not some random poster on TLS

ETA: Obviously this doesn't apply neatly to the litigation side.

Not disagreeing with anything said here but nothing you said seems to imply that it is an incredible easy choice for OP to go to freshfields.

Out of curiosity, is the year 2-5 exits due to self-selection or due to the firm pushing people out?

[The Lsat Airbender]

Out of curiosity, is the year 2-5 exits due to self-selection or due to the firm pushing people out?

2-5 is a wide enough band to be typical of most V100 firms. It's a spectrum between leaving voluntarily and involuntarily, depending mainly on the person and how busy their group is.

[JM14]

Speaking as a practicing lawyer in NY BigLaw, this is an incredibly easy choice: go to Davis Polk

Speaking as someone who has actually worked at DPW corporate and still has close friends in both those groups, this is an incredibly easy choice: go to Freshfields

Would you be able to elaborate on this?

tl;dr - If you go to DPW you'll probably lateral to a generic in-house position or another law firm anyway. Your personal life will be much better at Freshfields

Sure - for background I’m a senior associate who started at DPW and then lateraled to PW. I generally liked my time there, felt I learned a lot, and left on good terms. And to preface this, my response could probably apply to any number of firms that ppl consider DPW peers based on the experience of my friends and classmates.

DPW offers clear advantages at this point in the OPs career because there are so many unknown variables. Stronger brand in corporate circles, steadier volume of high quality work with high profile clients, and guaranteed to earn non-WLRK top compensation every year without an hours requirement.

But I’ve done the DPW thing myself and have watched many colleagues leave at various points. The reality is that 80% of DPW associates will leave the firm between years 2-5. The plurality of those exits are to other law firms (either in NY or otherwise). At that point, you’re no longer a DPW associate anyway and still too junior to do the “straight to partner or counsel at the new firm” thing. So the only thing that you take with you are the skills you picked up and friends you made (I’ll come back to this). On the non law firm exits, most ppl go to seats that one could get from any decently well known NY firm. Very few ppl scored a position that only DPW could offer (client specifically hires that associate because timing and impressions lined up) and those only go to senior associates (I.e., you have to survive and thrive long enough to get the look which is a challenge in and of itself). I’ve seen more DPW associates leave law altogether and start their own business than be cherry picked by a client.

It’s also not that hard to lateral into DPW. That’s really a myth. In some ways there’s less competition than at more lifestyle firms because most NY associates don’t want to “lateral up” and work worse hours for probably same money. You can count on one hand the number S&C and Cravath associates that want to lateral to DPW. What’s the point? On the other hand I’ve seen plenty of laterals from Cahill, Cadwalader, Paul Hastings, et al.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters in this market is your ability to deliver good work product and how people think of you. And the DPW prestige isn’t always the answer to that. I’ve seen lots of obviously smart DPW associates crash and burn because they were overwhelmed on deals or the culture just wasn’t a right fit. One thing that that distinguishes DPW from its immediate peers is that the firm shies away from direct confrontation. So sure Skadden or S&C or Kirkland may scream at you, but at DPW they’ll just start directing work away from you to better associates. So if you’re a “bad junior” (which is most juniors) then you could be crippled early. Worse, if you’re one of the few good ones, you’ll feel the crush really quickly which makes you more prone to burning out.

So go where you think you’ll perform the best. Most law students don’t know so they pick based on prestige, which is what I did and it worked out fine. But if you know you’ll be happier and do better in a different environment, then just do that. I’ve seen classmates turn down Wachtell for regional firms in other cities and they're happy and fantastic lawyers today. Ultimately you’re the one that actually has to work the hours, not some random poster on TLS

ETA: Obviously this doesn't apply neatly to the litigation side.

I know this thread is old, but could I DM you?

Hey not sure if you got a response to this - but I can likely talk to what is being said here if you have questions - feel free to DM me and to the extent I can help I'm happy to.

[Anonymous User]

Speaking as a practicing lawyer in NY BigLaw, this is an incredibly easy choice: go to Davis Polk

Speaking as someone who has actually worked at DPW corporate and still has close friends in both those groups, this is an incredibly easy choice: go to Freshfields

Would you be able to elaborate on this?

tl;dr - If you go to DPW you'll probably lateral to a generic in-house position or another law firm anyway. Your personal life will be much better at Freshfields

Sure - for background I’m a senior associate who started at DPW and then lateraled to PW. I generally liked my time there, felt I learned a lot, and left on good terms. And to preface this, my response could probably apply to any number of firms that ppl consider DPW peers based on the experience of my friends and classmates.

DPW offers clear advantages at this point in the OPs career because there are so many unknown variables. Stronger brand in corporate circles, steadier volume of high quality work with high profile clients, and guaranteed to earn non-WLRK top compensation every year without an hours requirement.

But I’ve done the DPW thing myself and have watched many colleagues leave at various points. The reality is that 80% of DPW associates will leave the firm between years 2-5. The plurality of those exits are to other law firms (either in NY or otherwise). At that point, you’re no longer a DPW associate anyway and still too junior to do the “straight to partner or counsel at the new firm” thing. So the only thing that you take with you are the skills you picked up and friends you made (I’ll come back to this). On the non law firm exits, most ppl go to seats that one could get from any decently well known NY firm. Very few ppl scored a position that only DPW could offer (client specifically hires that associate because timing and impressions lined up) and those only go to senior associates (I.e., you have to survive and thrive long enough to get the look which is a challenge in and of itself). I’ve seen more DPW associates leave law altogether and start their own business than be cherry picked by a client.

It’s also not that hard to lateral into DPW. That’s really a myth. In some ways there’s less competition than at more lifestyle firms because most NY associates don’t want to “lateral up” and work worse hours for probably same money. You can count on one hand the number S&C and Cravath associates that want to lateral to DPW. What’s the point? On the other hand I’ve seen plenty of laterals from Cahill, Cadwalader, Paul Hastings, et al.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters in this market is your ability to deliver good work product and how people think of you. And the DPW prestige isn’t always the answer to that. I’ve seen lots of obviously smart DPW associates crash and burn because they were overwhelmed on deals or the culture just wasn’t a right fit. One thing that that distinguishes DPW from its immediate peers is that the firm shies away from direct confrontation. So sure Skadden or S&C or Kirkland may scream at you, but at DPW they’ll just start directing work away from you to better associates. So if you’re a “bad junior” (which is most juniors) then you could be crippled early. Worse, if you’re one of the few good ones, you’ll feel the crush really quickly which makes you more prone to burning out.

So go where you think you’ll perform the best. Most law students don’t know so they pick based on prestige, which is what I did and it worked out fine. But if you know you’ll be happier and do better in a different environment, then just do that. I’ve seen classmates turn down Wachtell for regional firms in other cities and they're happy and fantastic lawyers today. Ultimately you’re the one that actually has to work the hours, not some random poster on TLS

ETA: Obviously this doesn't apply neatly to the litigation side.

Funny lowkey DPW gas abt how it is lateraling "up" to go from S&C or Cravath to DPW