What is needed to get hired at Cravath? Forum

[Anonymous User]

1L at CN in NYC and came into law school pretty much putting Cravath on a pedestal (blinded by Vault, I know). Reading posts around here, a lot of people seem to say that Cravath is fungible with S&C, Davis Polk, Simpson, etc. and I get this sense from posts that it isn't even "hard" to get a job at any of these NY shops (excluding WLRK, of course). But for Cravath, for instance, data from my school's OCS shows that fewer than 20 students summered there last year. Assuming maybe a 50% yield from offers made, that still works out to at most around 10%-15% of the class getting an offer from Cravath. I guess what I'm trying to say is: Doesn't that make Cravath plenty hard to get? Maybe people are comparing Cravath to places like Jenner & Block D.C., but summer hiring stats honestly suggest only top students (even at CN) can get Cravath. Of course, I don't have access to offer by honors data yet, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I'm at a 3.67 after the first semester (don't know where that puts me in the class) - do I have a good chance to get a 2L position at the firm? What else does Cravath look for (e.g. special work experience, elite undergrad, etc.)?

Former Cravath associate here. It's no harder to get a job at Cravath than it is at Davis Polk, S&C, Simpson, etc. Your assumption of a 50% yield from offers made honestly sounds pretty high. I'm no expert or anything, but even 1/3 would be a good number. Maybe placing at the top of the Vault rankings affected that somewhat but 50% is insanely high.

You don't need special work experience, an elite undergrad or anything like that. If your grades are decent, you have a shot. Just like their peer firms, they look for people who seem sharp and interested, would work hard and aren't pricks.

Like the others said, there are plenty of valid reasons to choose another firm over Cravath, regardless of whether your goal is corp, lit, or whatever else. There are pros and cons to all of these firms. Cravath has many things that are different than other places, but selectivity isn't one of them. You'll learn more about firms and the interview process as your hiring season actually gets closer.

Idk why people are saying the yield is low. I heard that Cravath only gave out 20-30 offers last year at my CCN and nearly 20 accepted. That works out to a 66% yield...at least. Seems like the firm is still pretty desired?

It’s honestly pretty crazy to hear people say that Cravath used to give out 50 or 60 offers to one CCN. Maybe that was before it climbed back up to Vault 1 LOL? I’m a 1L though, so 2Ls/3Ls/recent grads should correct me if I’m wrong.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath is just put on a pedestal on this forum and law schools for better or worse. It really is not that hard after self selection weeds out many and they’re not nearly “as selective” as some like to pretend. I was maybe top 20% at a lower T14 and received an offer. They also gave out a surprising number of offers at my school and I believe only a quarter turned them down (because of “prestige”). From this, I imagine that an above average student at CLS or NYU could fairly easily get an offer.

[Anonymous User]

At my YSH, Cravath's yield is less than a third (although I am not sure the data I am looking at is completely accurate).

[Anonymous User]

At my YSH, Cravath's yield is less than a third (although I am not sure the data I am looking at is completely accurate).

Cravath doesn't perform well at Yale, for whatever reason. It performs better at Harvard, but Harvard kids would take a DC position or boutique position over Cravath (for lit), since Cravath seen as "not an embarrassing backup" to anyone who's climbing up the prestige ladder. My impression is that it doesn't perform well at Stanford either, but it might be a CA thing.

[Anonymous User]

At my YSH, Cravath's yield is less than a third (although I am not sure the data I am looking at is completely accurate).

Cravath doesn't perform well at Yale, for whatever reason. It performs better at Harvard, but Harvard kids would take a DC position or boutique position over Cravath (for lit), since Cravath seen as "not an embarrassing backup" to anyone who's climbing up the prestige ladder. My impression is that it doesn't perform well at Stanford either, but it might be a CA thing.

I'm guessing it's Stanford he's talking about. I'd be surprised if CSM's yield at Yale was close to 33%. I think there are several reasons it does so poorly at Yale. There are a number of professors who actively discourage students from going there. I have friends that were told it was the worst choice someone could make. As already stated, you work super long hours for partners who tend to have a more negative reputation (I don't know if its deserved or not, so CSM people, don't get upset with me) and yet get paid market. As also stated, I think the whole #1 thing is/was considered a meme as much as anything (though judging by OP, it works). There are many firms that are more selective than them, and the people I know who got offers/summered at CSM were below average law students in terms of grades.

[Anonymous User]

Given that I'm anon, there is no need to beat around the bush. Those numbers are from SLS. For comparison, WLRK has a yield of ~80% and most other NYC V10 firms have low yields because they give a ton of offers. Cravath is interesting at SLS because they both don't give that many offers and don't have a very high yield.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe things really are different at YS, but can confirm that yield for Cravath at Columbia was 75% last year (or two years ago? Lost track of what cycle were in rn). Of course, it’s totally possible that a bunch of people got callback OFFERS but decided not to do the actual callback, which resulted in depressed callback numbers - and therefore a higher yield.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe things really are different at YS, but can confirm that yield for Cravath at Columbia was 75% last year (or two years ago? Lost track of what cycle were in rn). Of course, it’s totally possible that a bunch of people got callback OFFERS but decided not to do the actual callback, which resulted in depressed callback numbers - and therefore a higher yield.

No idea what you are talking about. Yield last year was ~50%, which is typical.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe things really are different at YS, but can confirm that yield for Cravath at Columbia was 75% last year (or two years ago? Lost track of what cycle were in rn). Of course, it’s totally possible that a bunch of people got callback OFFERS but decided not to do the actual callback, which resulted in depressed callback numbers - and therefore a higher yield.

No idea what you are talking about. Yield last year was ~50%, which is typical.

To be clear, the 2019 EIP Results show 24 extended offers, 76% OBH, and 13 acceptances.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe things really are different at YS, but can confirm that yield for Cravath at Columbia was 75% last year (or two years ago? Lost track of what cycle were in rn). Of course, it’s totally possible that a bunch of people got callback OFFERS but decided not to do the actual callback, which resulted in depressed callback numbers - and therefore a higher yield.

No idea what you are talking about. Yield last year was ~50%, which is typical.

I think above poster mixed up some numbers. There were 18 summers in 2020. Can't use that number to compare with 2019 offers, which is how I think the 75% was calculated. Around 50% sounds about right.

[Anonymous User]

I don't really know why yield matters, but insofar as it reflects the wisdom of the crowd, Cravath had I think a three-year period recently in which nobody took an offer from it from UChicago. I think for the reasons stated in this thread, more hours for the same money, preferring other markets (at UChicago many students strongly prefer Chicago or DC to NY but apply to NY as a backup), etc.

[Anonymous User]

I don't really know why yield matters, but insofar as it reflects the wisdom of the crowd, Cravath had I think a three-year period recently in which nobody took an offer from it from UChicago. I think for the reasons stated in this thread, more hours for the same money, preferring other markets (at UChicago many students strongly prefer Chicago or DC to NY but apply to NY as a backup), etc.

Where are you getting those numbers? Internal data on when current associates joined the firm shows that this is wrong (for the past decade at least). But it's true that Cravath doesn't hire that many people from UChicago.

[Anonymous User]

I don't really know why yield matters, but insofar as it reflects the wisdom of the crowd, Cravath had I think a three-year period recently in which nobody took an offer from it from UChicago. I think for the reasons stated in this thread, more hours for the same money, preferring other markets (at UChicago many students strongly prefer Chicago or DC to NY but apply to NY as a backup), etc.

Where are you getting those numbers? Internal data on when current associates joined the firm shows that this is wrong (for the past decade at least). But it's true that Cravath doesn't hire that many people from UChicago.

Some may have joined post-clerkship or from 3L OCI or something but it’s from our OCI materials. They gave out like 40 offers with 0 acceptances from ~2016 to ~2018 (I don’t think I have access to the 2016 docs now but people discussed it at the time and there definitely were 0 in 2017 and 2018.) It’s also been discussed on this forum before I think.

[Anonymous User]

I don't really know why yield matters, but insofar as it reflects the wisdom of the crowd, Cravath had I think a three-year period recently in which nobody took an offer from it from UChicago. I think for the reasons stated in this thread, more hours for the same money, preferring other markets (at UChicago many students strongly prefer Chicago or DC to NY but apply to NY as a backup), etc.

Where are you getting those numbers? Internal data on when current associates joined the firm shows that this is wrong (for the past decade at least). But it's true that Cravath doesn't hire that many people from UChicago.

Some may have joined post-clerkship or from 3L OCI or something but it’s from our OCI materials. They gave out like 40 offers with 0 acceptances from ~2016 to ~2018 (I don’t think I have access to the 2016 docs now but people discussed it at the time and there definitely were 0 in 2017 and 2018.) It’s also been discussed on this forum before I think.

This is still wrong, and you should confirm your data before posting.

There aren't many Chicago students, to be fair, but I can confirm several people summering in each of 2017 and 2018 and returning to the firm the next year.

[Anonymous User]

“Several”? Somehow I find that surprising. Also I don’t think the original poster on Chicago was trying to be exact; he did have squiggly lines with respect to the class years. I don’t recall Chicago students being represented in the summer class of 2016 or 2015.

I think the point still stands — Cravath isn’t popular at Chicago, and/or vice versa. Cravath isn’t popular at Stanford or Yale, and/or vice versa. Cravath is popular at Columbia and NYU; it is moderately attractive at Harvard, but not to the top students. This isn’t a bad outcome! I suspect the same type of yield applies to most firms anyways. YSH will always go for unicorn jobs, and put them on a different pedestal; University or Chicago strikes me as very academic and intellectual, not exactly Cravath vibe; NYU and Columbia are New York based.

[Anonymous User]

“Several”? Somehow I find that surprising. Also I don’t think the original poster on Chicago was trying to be exact; he did have squiggly lines with respect to the class years. I don’t recall Chicago students being represented in the summer class of 2016 or 2015.

I think the point still stands — Cravath isn’t popular at Chicago, and/or vice versa. Cravath isn’t popular at Stanford or Yale, and/or vice versa. Cravath is popular at Columbia and NYU; it is moderately attractive at Harvard, but not to the top students. This isn’t a bad outcome! I suspect the same type of yield applies to most firms anyways. YSH will always go for unicorn jobs, and put them on a different pedestal; University or Chicago strikes me as very academic and intellectual, not exactly Cravath vibe; NYU and Columbia are New York based.

Then prove me wrong, please. It's easy to check, even just for people who are still at the firm. I'm not going to post people's actual names in a public forum, though.

And I can confirm you're wrong, too, about at least the summer class of 2015, which had several Chicago students. No clue on 2016.

I don't disagree at all on your/his general point, but you shouldn't manufacture stories to get there.

[Anonymous User]

“Several”? Somehow I find that surprising. Also I don’t think the original poster on Chicago was trying to be exact; he did have squiggly lines with respect to the class years. I don’t recall Chicago students being represented in the summer class of 2016 or 2015.

I think the point still stands — Cravath isn’t popular at Chicago, and/or vice versa. Cravath isn’t popular at Stanford or Yale, and/or vice versa. Cravath is popular at Columbia and NYU; it is moderately attractive at Harvard, but not to the top students. This isn’t a bad outcome! I suspect the same type of yield applies to most firms anyways. YSH will always go for unicorn jobs, and put them on a different pedestal; University or Chicago strikes me as very academic and intellectual, not exactly Cravath vibe; NYU and Columbia are New York based.

Then prove me wrong, please. It's easy to check, even just for people who are still at the firm. I'm not going to post people's actual names in a public forum, though.

And I can confirm you're wrong, too, about at least the summer class of 2015, which had several Chicago students. No clue on 2016.

I don't disagree at all on your/his general point, but you shouldn't manufacture stories to get there.

Original Chicago poster. Sorry, I have no urge to post internal OCI spreadsheets on a public forum, but I have now triple-checked. Maybe our OCS messed it up or something, though it’s unlikely, and the new Law.com Go-To Law Schools report indeed has no Cravath associates from the Chicago class of 2020 (2018 OCI).

Maybe your recollection is wrong? I don’t have any data on OCI 2015 and can’t speak to it. I know Cravath did decently by its low standards at 2019 OCI, it got three (though at least one of those isn’t returning), but yeah as the other Chicago poster says the point is that it’s not popular at Chicago for whatever reason and has a low yield.

[Anonymous User]

Original Chicago poster. Sorry, I have no urge to post internal OCI spreadsheets on a public forum, but I have now triple-checked. Maybe our OCS messed it up or something, though it’s unlikely, and the new Law.com Go-To Law Schools report indeed has no Cravath associates from the Chicago class of 2020 (2018 OCI).

Maybe your recollection is wrong? I don’t have any data on OCI 2015 and can’t speak to it. I know Cravath did decently by its low standards at 2019 OCI, it got three (though at least one of those isn’t returning), but yeah as the other Chicago poster says the point is that it’s not popular at Chicago for whatever reason and has a low yield.

How am I wrong? I've never said anything about 2018 OCI (so no contest on that point) just that several people at Chicago summered at Cravath in 2017 and 2018 (so 2016 and 2017 OCI). You claimed a three-year stretch of nothing, not that nobody summered there in 2019.

You can literally check the Cravath website and find people several people from Chicago to back up my statements, and there may even be more that've already left.

[Anonymous User]

While we're discussing the minutiae of Cravath yields, can anyone speak to CSM rebounding at YLS? Per TLS threads from a few years ago, it seems like 1 or 2 Yalies (max) summered at CSM, but 'new associates' from YLS is now up to 8 (according to the 2021 Law.com Go-To Law Schools report that somebody just referenced). What happened?

[Sackboy]

While we're discussing the minutiae of Cravath yields, can anyone speak to CSM rebounding at YLS? Per TLS threads from a few years ago, it seems like 1 or 2 Yalies (max) summered at CSM, but 'new associates' from YLS is now up to 8 (according to the 2021 Law.com Go-To Law Schools report that somebody just referenced). What happened?

Trump admin probably made a fair deal of gov't gigs no longer appealing to Yalies.

[NYCValeoftears]

this may come off as arrogant, but it's actually meant to be the opposite -- OP's post makes me laugh now that I've been practising for a few years. rankings matter very little and any of CSM's peer firms (including those quite a bit down in the rankings) offer virtually the same exit opps. Statistically speaking you will likely be out of cravath a few years after arriving even if you get that offer -- in any event, good luck! always make sure you properly due diligence your career choices! most in our field do not and pay the price a few years into biglaw, wish someone told me that when i got my offer.

[nealric]

this may come off as arrogant, but it's actually meant to be the opposite -- OP's post makes me laugh now that I've been practising for a few years. rankings matter very little and any of CSM's peer firms (including those quite a bit down in the rankings) offer virtually the same exit opps. Statistically speaking you will likely be out of cravath a few years after arriving even if you get that offer -- in any event, good luck! always make sure you properly due diligence your career choices! most in our field do not and pay the price a few years into biglaw, wish someone told me that when i got my offer.

As a general comment, I'd say that exit ops are more determined by your practice group and your specific experience than the name of the firm on you resume. A hot practice group at a low v100 is likely to have better options than a less hot practice group at a v5. Someone who gets little substantive experience is likely to have worse exit options than someone with a lot of client contact.

Not saying that a blue chip name won't get you noticed, and not saying that some random midlaw firm is going to provide similar exit opportunities to Cravath, but within the universe of NYC Biglaw, I'm not sure the name means nearly as much as a lot of prospects think it does. It's not the same game as choosing a law school where going to a place ranked in the top xx# slots makes an enormous difference.

Going to a place like CSM does make a pretty big difference in the highly unlikely event you end up as a partner, but that's a different discussion.

[Anonymous User]

OP's obsession with Cravath is a bit weird, but I don't think 0Ls/1Ls can be wholly blamed for being enamored with prestige. Literally 3 out of my 4 professors this semester at a T6 have mentioned Cravath multiple times in class, inserting jokes and jabs - yes - but always in the context of "Even Cravath..." or "Imagine if Cravath..." They literally don't talk about any other firms lol. And they aren't randos or particularly old. One is a federal judge. So I guess I can understand why neurotic 1Ls who don't know anything about the importance of practice areas (over firm name) can easily be led to think Cravath is special or something.

[Anonymous User]

OP's obsession with Cravath is a bit weird, but I don't think 0Ls/1Ls can be wholly blamed for being enamored with prestige. Literally 3 out of my 4 professors this semester at a T6 have mentioned Cravath multiple times in class, inserting jokes and jabs - yes - but always in the context of "Even Cravath..." or "Imagine if Cravath..." They literally don't talk about any other firms lol. And they aren't randos or particularly old. One is a federal judge. So I guess I can understand why neurotic 1Ls who don't know anything about the importance of practice areas (over firm name) can easily be led to think Cravath is special or something.

To sort of play devil’s advocate, doesn’t your example show that Cravath is in fact special? I work there and don’t think that the experience is dramatically different than what my friends at STB/S&C/DPW get but the “specialness” doesn’t derive from anything about the work necessarily, it comes from the fact that lots of people (e.g. 3/4 professors at your T6 law school) think it’s special. The specialness is purely a cultural fact and any objective substantive difference between Cravath and the equivalent NYC firms (I.e. which makes you a “better lawyer”) is sort of besides the point.

From what I’ve seen, this cultural fact extends to people in all sorts of law and law adjacent walks of life. I also assume (hope?) that it extends to lateral opportunities and post-law firm recruiting so I think that the myth of The Firm (even if it is bullshit) is what makes it special from the prospect of someone going there.

[Anonymous User]

To sort of play devil’s advocate, doesn’t your example show that Cravath is in fact special? I work there and don’t think that the experience is dramatically different than what my friends at STB/S&C/DPW get but the “specialness” doesn’t derive from anything about the work necessarily, it comes from the fact that lots of people (e.g. 3/4 professors at your T6 law school) think it’s special. The specialness is purely a cultural fact and any objective substantive difference between Cravath and the equivalent NYC firms (I.e. which makes you a “better lawyer”) is sort of besides the point.

Please--my eyes can only roll back so far. Being the target of a joke does not inherently indicate anything. Sometimes it signifies status (e.g. jokes about Yale) and sometimes it signifies absolutely nothing (e.g. jokes about Cravath). Making a joke about Cravath does not mean that the professors think Cravath is "special"; Cravath is simply a known referent.