Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil? Forum

[Iowahawk]

In terms of lay prestige in the industry, it will be Weil > Deb, and Cleary is a bit trickier since it has lost a lot of big name partners over the past few years. But having said that Deb is very elite/prestigious in NYC, and in terms of recruiting may be more grade sensitive than the other two, but this does not have much relevance to its prestige in the industry and the deals and cases you get.

From what I’ve heard from my peers, Deb seem to have a less of a sweatshop or swim or sink culture than Weil or Cleary. But this also depends on the office and practice, fwiw.

In terms of lay prestige in the industry, the vast majority of attorneys have no idea or interest in whether Weil or Deb is more prestigious.

[Anonymous User]

Can hands down say Deb is not a sweatshop. Personal experience here. It is worth noting that Deb is always a market leader in compensation... other firms usually take a while to match. Also worth noting Deb didn't make any cuts or cut backs during either the Recession or Corona... strong balance sheet and year over year double digit growth. And expanding. Weil is on the decline and Cleary is stagnant.

Did your personal experience inform you that weil is on the decline when it’s grown more profitable every year including during Covid? Easy for deb to post double digit growth when it’s starting from 500 million less in revenue.

[Anonymous User]

Word on the street is Weil isn't doing well. But just my old 2 cents. This thread is pointless. At the end of the day, we all do the same work and get paid the same amount. Go where you think you can survive the longest and make the most money and leave with your hair intact.

[fleurdelis2]

Word on the street is Weil isn't doing well. But just my old 2 cents. This thread is pointless. At the end of the day, we all do the same work and get paid the same amount. Go where you think you can survive the longest and make the most money and leave with your hair intact.

I don't know where you're hearing this but Weil actually posted another record year.

[Anonymous User]

Word on the street is Weil isn't doing well. But just my old 2 cents. This thread is pointless. At the end of the day, we all do the same work and get paid the same amount. Go where you think you can survive the longest and make the most money and leave with your hair intact.

I’m not sure where you got this, but Weil’s revenue has been increasing, even amidst the pandemic. Regardless, all three firms are tiers, below DPW and Cravath

[Anonymous User]

If you really have no culture/fit preference, my vote is Debevoise. Of the three, they are the most selective at my T6, and may have a bit more prestige than the others. I've also heard from friends there that they are less sweat-shoppy than some other firms, but this is all anecdotal. They are all top tier, so please don't spend too much time/energy worrying about this. Congratulations and good luck!

[dyemond]

In terms of lay prestige in the industry, it will be Weil > Deb, and Cleary is a bit trickier since it has lost a lot of big name partners over the past few years. But having said that Deb is very elite/prestigious in NYC, and in terms of recruiting may be more grade sensitive than the other two, but this does not have much relevance to its prestige in the industry and the deals and cases you get.

From what I’ve heard from my peers, Deb seem to have a less of a sweatshop or swim or sink culture than Weil or Cleary. But this also depends on the office and practice, fwiw.

In terms of lay prestige in the industry, the vast majority of attorneys have no idea or interest in whether Weil or Deb is more prestigious.

That people here are nitpicking whether Cleary, Deb or Weil is more prestigious (hint: all upper-tier NY firms) while grousing that Weil or Milbank might be prioritizing top of the class T25/30 students over median kids at CCN is just wild.

OP, if you want specialized restructuring work, choose Weil, if you don't, choose Cleary or Deb. All good choices here.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, clearly those firms are making a mistake with their selections, hence they should be docked prestigiousness points. It’s not like they know how to run their business or anything.

[Anonymous User]

Bumping this since I'm making a similar choice. Does anyone else have other thoughts?

[Anonymous User]

For prestige Deb over Weil? LOL

Deb less prestigious than Weil?

Yes, obviously. Everyone knows this.

Lol. Found the Weil junior.

[Anonymous User]

Word on the street is Weil isn't doing well. But just my old 2 cents. This thread is pointless. At the end of the day, we all do the same work and get paid the same amount. Go where you think you can survive the longest and make the most money and leave with your hair intact.

I’m not sure where you got this, but Weil’s revenue has been increasing, even amidst the pandemic. Regardless, all three firms are tiers, below DPW and Cravath

How does S&C and Skadden fit into this picture?

[Anonymous User]

Word on the street is Weil isn't doing well. But just my old 2 cents. This thread is pointless. At the end of the day, we all do the same work and get paid the same amount. Go where you think you can survive the longest and make the most money and leave with your hair intact.

I’m not sure where you got this, but Weil’s revenue has been increasing, even amidst the pandemic. Regardless, all three firms are tiers, below DPW and Cravath

How does S&C and Skadden fit into this picture?

For corporate? S&C >> Skadden > Cleary > Deb/Weil

[Anonymous User]

Bumping this since I'm making a similar choice. Does anyone else have other thoughts?

I'm a Weil associate and I don't think this thread is terribly helpful. I haven't heard much about Cleary but have heard good things about Debevoise. Seems to be similar in terms of culture to Weil and the quality of work is comparable with maybe some nuances around the edges depending on practice group. Cleary could be fine as well - I just haven't really had in friends with experience there.

On selectivity, I agree - I don't think Weil is very grade selective these days. I've been involved in recruiting the past couple years and we interview plenty of people with high grades but we put more emphasis on interview performance than GPA. We probably miss out on some great talent because of poor interview performance but that's the approach we take.

And I can't say it's not working for us because a lot of our best junior associates didn't necessarily have top grades - their grades are fine but maybe not up to snuff for some of our more "selective" peer firms. Once you are out of school, I think you'll find that firm prestige/reputation is based on partner accomplishments (deals, cases, etc.) and not our GPA cutoffs are for OCI offers.

[Anonymous User]

Bumping this since I'm making a similar choice. Does anyone else have other thoughts?

I'm a Weil associate and I don't think this thread is terribly helpful. I haven't heard much about Cleary but have heard good things about Debevoise. Seems to be similar in terms of culture to Weil and the quality of work is comparable with maybe some nuances around the edges depending on practice group. Cleary could be fine as well - I just haven't really had in friends with experience there.

On selectivity, I agree - I don't think Weil is very grade selective these days. I've been involved in recruiting the past couple years and we interview plenty of people with high grades but we put more emphasis on interview performance than GPA. We probably miss out on some great talent because of poor interview performance but that's the approach we take.

And I can't say it's not working for us because a lot of our best junior associates didn't necessarily have top grades - their grades are fine but maybe not up to snuff for some of our more "selective" peer firms. Once you are out of school, I think you'll find that firm prestige/reputation is based on partner accomplishments (deals, cases, etc.) and not our GPA cutoffs are for OCI offers.

dude you're probably right but i have to let you know, the firm is not going to love you back.

[jedibill]

Pandemic Responses. Good news is that none of these firms screwed their 2020 summers; each gave out full pay (*cough* S&C). But:

Debevoise: Started their c/o 2020 associates in October
Weil: Started their c/o 2020 associates in November
Cleary: Started their c/o 2020 associates in January/February

Not dispositive for firm choice. (Freshfields started their associates in the fall, so obviously they're superior to STB and their January start /s). But perhaps a helpful data point. Current first-year Deb associate has already received +~$50k in comp compared to their Cleary peers.

[Anonymous User]

Bumping this since I'm making a similar choice. Does anyone else have other thoughts?

I'm a Weil associate and I don't think this thread is terribly helpful. I haven't heard much about Cleary but have heard good things about Debevoise. Seems to be similar in terms of culture to Weil and the quality of work is comparable with maybe some nuances around the edges depending on practice group. Cleary could be fine as well - I just haven't really had in friends with experience there.

On selectivity, I agree - I don't think Weil is very grade selective these days. I've been involved in recruiting the past couple years and we interview plenty of people with high grades but we put more emphasis on interview performance than GPA. We probably miss out on some great talent because of poor interview performance but that's the approach we take.

And I can't say it's not working for us because a lot of our best junior associates didn't necessarily have top grades - their grades are fine but maybe not up to snuff for some of our more "selective" peer firms. Once you are out of school, I think you'll find that firm prestige/reputation is based on partner accomplishments (deals, cases, etc.) and not our GPA cutoffs are for OCI offers.

dude you're probably right but i have to let you know, the firm is not going to love you back.

I'm the anon you quoted. I do like Weil but at the end of the day it's just a firm. I only post to be helpful for law students since I have some inside knowledge about Weil in particular.

I mainly came to this thread to say OP probably would be fine at any of these firms though I know less about Cleary. I then saw some old posts of folks using OCI GPA cutoffs to compare the three and wanted to say that probably isn't the right way to make this kind of decision.

[Anonymous User]

Word on the street is Weil isn't doing well. But just my old 2 cents. This thread is pointless. At the end of the day, we all do the same work and get paid the same amount. Go where you think you can survive the longest and make the most money and leave with your hair intact.

I’m not sure where you got this, but Weil’s revenue has been increasing, even amidst the pandemic. Regardless, all three firms are tiers, below DPW and Cravath

How does S&C and Skadden fit into this picture?

For corporate? S&C >> Skadden > Cleary > Deb/Weil

Is STB on par with S&C? With Skadden? Talking corporate.

[Anonymous User]

Word on the street is Weil isn't doing well. But just my old 2 cents. This thread is pointless. At the end of the day, we all do the same work and get paid the same amount. Go where you think you can survive the longest and make the most money and leave with your hair intact.

I’m not sure where you got this, but Weil’s revenue has been increasing, even amidst the pandemic. Regardless, all three firms are tiers, below DPW and Cravath

How does S&C and Skadden fit into this picture?

For corporate? S&C >> Skadden > Cleary > Deb/Weil

It's more like S&C = Skadden > Cleary > Deb/Weil

[Anonymous User]

For nyc corporate, Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/Davis Polk > Skadden/Simpson > Kirkland/Latham/Cleary/Debevoise > Weil/Paul, Weiss

[Anonymous User]

For nyc corporate, Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/Davis Polk > Skadden/Simpson > Kirkland/Latham/Cleary/Debevoise > Weil/Paul, Weiss

This is 100% correct for the biggest corp. practices and changes somewhat as u get more niche. Ofc u have to decide for urself how much u care about generic prestige/reputation (it doesn't feed you or make u happier lol) but this is the general picture.

[Anonymous User]

For nyc corporate, Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/Davis Polk > Skadden/Simpson > Kirkland/Latham/Cleary/Debevoise > Weil/Paul, Weiss

This is 100% correct for the biggest corp. practices and changes somewhat as u get more niche. Ofc u have to decide for urself how much u care about generic prestige/reputation (it doesn't feed you or make u happier lol) but this is the general picture.

op, if this is even relevant for you still, please look at chambers and not anonymous posters on TLS. I'm not sure how it's 100% correct to place Weil clearly below Latham and Kirkland when chambers says otherwise.

[Anonymous User]

For nyc corporate, Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/Davis Polk > Skadden/Simpson > Kirkland/Latham/Cleary/Debevoise > Weil/Paul, Weiss

This is 100% correct for the biggest corp. practices and changes somewhat as u get more niche. Ofc u have to decide for urself how much u care about generic prestige/reputation (it doesn't feed you or make u happier lol) but this is the general picture.

I can't tell if these are just a bunch of law students trolling. For NYC corporate, it's Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/DPW/Skadden/STB and then something like Cleary > Kirkland/Latham/Debevoise > Weil/PW

STB and Skadden have corporate practices that are at the worst peers with the Cravath group. STB's PE practice is still top of the market (with Kirkland) and its CM practice is just a tick below DPW's. Skadden's general M&A practice is arguably the best right after Wachtell's. It's CM group is also in the Latham/STB tier, which is better than Cravath's or S&C's. Skadden's tax group is also widely considered to be the best in NY (and tax obviously ties heavily into M&A, etc.), etc. etc.

[Anonymous User]

Not to hijack the thread -- how do you go about learning about things like Cleary's decline? Do you just have to actually work in the industry, or are there resources you can check out?

[Anonymous User]

For nyc corporate, Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/Davis Polk > Skadden/Simpson > Kirkland/Latham/Cleary/Debevoise > Weil/Paul, Weiss

This is 100% correct for the biggest corp. practices and changes somewhat as u get more niche. Ofc u have to decide for urself how much u care about generic prestige/reputation (it doesn't feed you or make u happier lol) but this is the general picture.

I can't tell if these are just a bunch of law students trolling. For NYC corporate, it's Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/DPW/Skadden/STB and then something like Cleary > Kirkland/Latham/Debevoise > Weil/PW

STB and Skadden have corporate practices that are at the worst peers with the Cravath group. STB's PE practice is still top of the market (with Kirkland) and its CM practice is just a tick below DPW's. Skadden's general M&A practice is arguably the best right after Wachtell's. It's CM group is also in the Latham/STB tier, which is better than Cravath's or S&C's. Skadden's tax group is also widely considered to be the best in NY (and tax obviously ties heavily into M&A, etc.), etc. etc.

not the original anon but dude your list is almost exactly the same lol

where do you get putting cleary above the mega firms/deb? based on league tables/chambers that’s just not accurate

[Anonymous User]

For nyc corporate, Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/Davis Polk > Skadden/Simpson > Kirkland/Latham/Cleary/Debevoise > Weil/Paul, Weiss

This is 100% correct for the biggest corp. practices and changes somewhat as u get more niche. Ofc u have to decide for urself how much u care about generic prestige/reputation (it doesn't feed you or make u happier lol) but this is the general picture.

I can't tell if these are just a bunch of law students trolling. For NYC corporate, it's Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/DPW/Skadden/STB and then something like Cleary > Kirkland/Latham/Debevoise > Weil/PW

STB and Skadden have corporate practices that are at the worst peers with the Cravath group. STB's PE practice is still top of the market (with Kirkland) and its CM practice is just a tick below DPW's. Skadden's general M&A practice is arguably the best right after Wachtell's. It's CM group is also in the Latham/STB tier, which is better than Cravath's or S&C's. Skadden's tax group is also widely considered to be the best in NY (and tax obviously ties heavily into M&A, etc.), etc. etc.

not the original anon but dude your list is almost exactly the same lol

where do you get putting cleary above the mega firms/deb? based on league tables/chambers that’s just not accurate

Not the quoted anon, but the list largely correlates with Chambers, with the exception of K&E (band 1) and Weil (surprisingly matching Cleary at band 2). Haven't checked out the league tables, but I'm pretty sure Cleary tops the international M&A deal volume (although Cleary emphasizes its international presence relative to its peers).