CCN Bad 2L Fall grades; very worried, thinking about dropping out. Forum

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't shy away from applying to v15/v10 NYC offices either. SullCromm, Paul Weiss, Latham NYC, etc., in recent years (pre-pandemic) have hired many summers from Fordham, Cardozo, Brooklyn, etc, so no reason to write those off just because of one semester of below median 2L elective grades at UChi.

If it doesn't take OP much time, OP should definitely send resumes to these places, but there is a big difference between having below median 2L elective grades and OP's grades. For T6 elective coursework, OP must be near dead last in their class with those grades. This isn't like OP got a 3.2 in elective coursework when median is a 3.5. This is OP getting a 2.65 when the median for elective coursework is probably a 3.5 (again, translate this all into U of C's wacky grading). OP should be targeting firms with very low selectivity and midlaw shops.

Chicago doesn’t raise the curve after 1L so most people’s GPAs fall rather than rise due to more competition, especially if you’re taking doctrinal lectures and/or classes with litigators (who basically all apply to clerk and thus need high grades 2L).

The letter grade equivalents are also misleading because it curves to a supposed middle B (177), not a B+. That means a supposed ~3.8 student—181—is ranked in single digits and a supposed ~3.0 student—177—is median. Basically, it’s pointless trying to translate to normal letter grades.

OP’s grades are bad—especially the 169s or whatever, which could be dead last in that class—but 174 isn’t cataclysmic.

I don't have any 169's (would put me on academic probation) I have a 179. My lowest grade is a 172.

According to my calculations, I am around, based on what the anon before you told me, I think - though cannot confirm - I am around bottom 1/3, albeit I cannot specify much more than that.

Yeah sorry I was dumb and thought the “B” cutoff was 170, not 173, which would’ve given you a couple of 169s.

[dyemond]

Honestly, U of C is so small and the grading system is so weird that I bet if you applied to bunch of AmLaw 200 firms that you'd eventually get a few bites from firms that just don't get what your grades represent but you're one of like 3 U of C applicants they get a year.

AmLaw 200 firms can be weirdly picky -- they often want top 1/3-median t10 or top 10-25% t20-30, either "prestigious and good enough" or the "not prestige-obsessed but assumed to be grinder". Other problem with an Amlaw 200 is that they'll ask the 1 or 2 uofc partners who work there what OP's grades actually mean.

OP needs NYC and/or a v50 with a biggish class. Honestly feels like GDC or Jones Day NY might work here. Given that OP is actually bottom 1/3 rather than the literal bottom, their chances are much better.

[kesha]

OP, if you haven’t already, you should make an appointment to talk to your professors for the classes where you got low grades. They will be able to give you a better sense of where you land on the bell curve, and more importantly, can help you figure out what went wrong and what you can do to fix your exam strategy going forward.

You might also consider taking more seminars, which have a higher curve than doctrinal classes.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, U of C is so small and the grading system is so weird that I bet if you applied to bunch of AmLaw 200 firms that you'd eventually get a few bites from firms that just don't get what your grades represent but you're one of like 3 U of C applicants they get a year.

AmLaw 200 firms can be weirdly picky -- they often want top 1/3-median t10 or top 10-25% t20-30, either "prestigious and good enough" or the "not prestige-obsessed but assumed to be grinder". Other problem with an Amlaw 200 is that they'll ask the 1 or 2 uofc partners who work there what OP's grades actually mean.

OP needs NYC and/or a v50 with a biggish class. Honestly feels like GDC or Jones Day NY might work here. Given that OP is actually bottom 1/3 rather than the literal bottom, their chances are much better.

Curious to why you say GDC? At least at Columbia, the vast majority of GDC’s offers have historically been to students with honors

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, U of C is so small and the grading system is so weird that I bet if you applied to bunch of AmLaw 200 firms that you'd eventually get a few bites from firms that just don't get what your grades represent but you're one of like 3 U of C applicants they get a year.

AmLaw 200 firms can be weirdly picky -- they often want top 1/3-median t10 or top 10-25% t20-30, either "prestigious and good enough" or the "not prestige-obsessed but assumed to be grinder". Other problem with an Amlaw 200 is that they'll ask the 1 or 2 uofc partners who work there what OP's grades actually mean.

OP needs NYC and/or a v50 with a biggish class. Honestly feels like GDC or Jones Day NY might work here. Given that OP is actually bottom 1/3 rather than the literal bottom, their chances are much better.

Curious to why you say GDC? At least at Columbia, the vast majority of GDC’s offers have historically been to students with honors

GDC is also one of the most selective firms in NY at Chicago, much closer to WLRK and Susman than to Jones Day

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, U of C is so small and the grading system is so weird that I bet if you applied to bunch of AmLaw 200 firms that you'd eventually get a few bites from firms that just don't get what your grades represent but you're one of like 3 U of C applicants they get a year.

AmLaw 200 firms can be weirdly picky -- they often want top 1/3-median t10 or top 10-25% t20-30, either "prestigious and good enough" or the "not prestige-obsessed but assumed to be grinder". Other problem with an Amlaw 200 is that they'll ask the 1 or 2 uofc partners who work there what OP's grades actually mean.

OP needs NYC and/or a v50 with a biggish class. Honestly feels like GDC or Jones Day NY might work here. Given that OP is actually bottom 1/3 rather than the literal bottom, their chances are much better.

Curious to why you say GDC? At least at Columbia, the vast majority of GDC’s offers have historically been to students with honors

GDC is also one of the most selective firms in NY at Chicago, much closer to WLRK and Susman than to Jones Day

Can confirm that at SLS GDC NY, while less selective than GDC DC and some other offices, is only really behind WLRK, Susman, and BSF (don't go to BSF) in terms of NY grade selectivity. Its basically tied with S&C and ahead of places like Skadden, Cravath, DPW, and STB in terms of grade selectivity. The person that GDC accepted with the lowest GPA over the last couple years was like at or above median (grades are a little fuzzy at SLS), so I don't even think its worth applying if you are bottom third at C.

Based on our numbers I would suggest places like Sherman and Ropes, which have relatively large classes and are pretty grade unselective.

[dyemond]

Honestly, U of C is so small and the grading system is so weird that I bet if you applied to bunch of AmLaw 200 firms that you'd eventually get a few bites from firms that just don't get what your grades represent but you're one of like 3 U of C applicants they get a year.

AmLaw 200 firms can be weirdly picky -- they often want top 1/3-median t10 or top 10-25% t20-30, either "prestigious and good enough" or the "not prestige-obsessed but assumed to be grinder". Other problem with an Amlaw 200 is that they'll ask the 1 or 2 uofc partners who work there what OP's grades actually mean.

OP needs NYC and/or a v50 with a biggish class. Honestly feels like GDC or Jones Day NY might work here. Given that OP is actually bottom 1/3 rather than the literal bottom, their chances are much better.

Curious to why you say GDC? At least at Columbia, the vast majority of GDC’s offers have historically been to students with honors

GDC is also one of the most selective firms in NY at Chicago, much closer to WLRK and Susman than to Jones Day

Can confirm that at SLS GDC NY, while less selective than GDC DC and some other offices, is only really behind WLRK, Susman, and BSF (don't go to BSF) in terms of NY grade selectivity. Its basically tied with S&C and ahead of places like Skadden, Cravath, DPW, and STB in terms of grade selectivity. The person that GDC accepted with the lowest GPA over the last couple years was like at or above median (grades are a little fuzzy at SLS), so I don't even think its worth applying if you are bottom third at C.

Based on our numbers I would suggest places like Sherman and Ropes, which have relatively large classes and are pretty grade unselective.

Got it, they might've changed things a bit. Years back ("ITE") they (and S&C fwiw) would dig deep into CLS.

[TheReasonablePerson]

One of my professors said I am lower than bottom 1/3

Didn't get a specification of where I am. Bottom 25% at best, possibly worse.

[Anonymous User]

UChicago's numerical grading and curve are extremely harmful to its students. As other posters have said, UChicago's curve is lower than other T6 law schools. UChicago needs to get on the same playing field as other law schools so those not in the top 50% can have an easier time with life.

OP, I suggest you continue to mass mail firm. Contact alumni at firms before any callbacks. Demonstrate the strongest possible (though not creepy) interest.

[an0nym0u5]

OP,

I was in a similar position grade wise at that law school and received multiple offers. Feel free to DM, if useful.

[The Lsat Airbender]

UChicago's numerical grading and curve are extremely harmful to its students. As other posters have said, UChicago's curve is lower than other T6 law schools. UChicago needs to get on the same playing field as other law schools so those not in the top 50% can have an easier time with life.

lol of course this drivel is anon

Chicago grads seem to be doing just fine lately, so do you care to substantiate the above?

[Anonymous User]

lol of course this drivel is anon

Chicago grads seem to be doing just fine lately, so do you care to substantiate the above?

Life is good, but it could be better. The curve is brutal--if more students had the ability to get Honors, for example, that would be a huge boon.

I'm wondering if anyone has a sense of where I stand: I'm at 177.XX, wondering if I'm actually Top 50% or just below it.

[nixy]

Why do you think more people being able to get honors would make a difference? Employers who hire regularly from Chicago have to understand the grading system, at least generally. It’s not new.

[Anonymous User]

Why do you think more people being able to get honors would make a difference? Employers who hire regularly from Chicago have to understand the grading system, at least generally. It’s not new.

I'm a Chicago alum and I think there is some point here. Typically cum laude represents top 30%. Chicago's Honors is not cum laude, but rather top 22.7% roughly. So if you are in that next 7.3% you graduate without any honors even though you would have honors under a different system.

179+ qualifies for Honors. If you are in the 178.X range, this difference could matter.

[Anonymous User]

Why do you think more people being able to get honors would make a difference? Employers who hire regularly from Chicago have to understand the grading system, at least generally. It’s not new.

I'm a Chicago alum and I think there is some point here. Typically cum laude represents top 30%. Chicago's Honors is not cum laude, but rather top 22.7% roughly. So if you are in that next 7.3% you graduate without any honors even though you would have honors under a different system.

179+ qualifies for Honors. If you are in the 178.X range, this difference could matter.

Chicago student. Those percentages are, I believe, the percentage of each class that gets each type of honors, so typically honors is around top 30% because you need to add the ~7.5% of the class that gets high or highest honors. I could be interpreting the transcript key wrong, though.

[Anonymous User]

Why do you think more people being able to get honors would make a difference? Employers who hire regularly from Chicago have to understand the grading system, at least generally. It’s not new.

I'm a Chicago alum and I think there is some point here. Typically cum laude represents top 30%. Chicago's Honors is not cum laude, but rather top 22.7% roughly. So if you are in that next 7.3% you graduate without any honors even though you would have honors under a different system.

179+ qualifies for Honors. If you are in the 178.X range, this difference could matter.

Chicago student. Those percentages are, I believe, the percentage of each class that gets each type of honors, so typically honors is around top 30% because you need to add the ~7.5% of the class that gets high or highest honors. I could be interpreting the transcript key wrong, though.

Maybe you’re right, and that would make sense. In that case, nixy’s point stands.

[Anonymous User]

Chicago grad here. My advice is:

- Target NYC biglaw and transactional. Don't say litigation - that requires higher grades probably 177.XX in NY, 178.XX in Chicago.
- Pad your courseload with seminars. They are curved to a 179. DM me if you want a list of seminars that were not too much work.
- Situation is salvageable since you only have 4 grades. My spread was 10 points at Chicago. At a minimum, pull your grades up and you should be able to get something at 3L OCI. No need to drop out, but you need to figure out why you are doing below median in doctrinal classes. Feel free to DM if you have questions.

[Anonymous User]

There is a lot to unpack here. I am assuming your transcript reads something like 172, 173, 173, 179. That’s not good. Figure out how to do better after you dive in to finding a job. Also consider taking different types of classes (paper instead of exam perhaps) to bring up your grades. Clinics are typically a safe 179 if you do your work and don’t have any personality conflicts.

-Apply to as many NYC firms as you can. Do this ASAP. The vast majority are not grade sensitive when it comes to Chicago students. Applying just to Chicago firms is dangerous even for folks with solid grades and I am sorry you weren’t advised about that previously.
-Do you have a home market other than Chicago? Apply to firms there, including regional firms.
-Dig in to your background prior to law school and during 1L summer. Think about any niche practice areas you could make a compelling argument to join and reach out to partners to see where it leads. Do this regardless of market etc., just try to make a connection.

[TheReasonablePerson]

There is a lot to unpack here. I am assuming your transcript reads something like 172, 173, 173, 179. That’s not good. Figure out how to do better after you dive in to finding a job. Also consider taking different types of classes (paper instead of exam perhaps) to bring up your grades. Clinics are typically a safe 179 if you do your work and don’t have any personality conflicts.

-Apply to as many NYC firms as you can. Do this ASAP. The vast majority are not grade sensitive when it comes to Chicago students. Applying just to Chicago firms is dangerous even for folks with solid grades and I am sorry you weren’t advised about that previously.
-Do you have a home market other than Chicago? Apply to firms there, including regional firms.
-Dig in to your background prior to law school and during 1L summer. Think about any niche practice areas you could make a compelling argument to join and reach out to partners to see where it leads. Do this regardless of market etc., just try to make a connection.

Could I have a chance in a market where some of my wife's family is + I spent a small time of my childhood there? Otherwise, its a regional market.

[Anonymous User]

Another thing to consider is that the UChicago LRAP program is changing (at first glance it appears to be a lot more generous) in 2023. BigLaw isn't the only way out of the debt.

[Anonymous User]

There is a lot to unpack here. I am assuming your transcript reads something like 172, 173, 173, 179. That’s not good. Figure out how to do better after you dive in to finding a job. Also consider taking different types of classes (paper instead of exam perhaps) to bring up your grades. Clinics are typically a safe 179 if you do your work and don’t have any personality conflicts.

-Apply to as many NYC firms as you can. Do this ASAP. The vast majority are not grade sensitive when it comes to Chicago students. Applying just to Chicago firms is dangerous even for folks with solid grades and I am sorry you weren’t advised about that previously.
-Do you have a home market other than Chicago? Apply to firms there, including regional firms.
-Dig in to your background prior to law school and during 1L summer. Think about any niche practice areas you could make a compelling argument to join and reach out to partners to see where it leads. Do this regardless of market etc., just try to make a connection.

Why is applying to just Chicago firms dangerous? I was not advised of this by career services when I put in my bids...

[Anonymous User]

There is a lot to unpack here. I am assuming your transcript reads something like 172, 173, 173, 179. That’s not good. Figure out how to do better after you dive in to finding a job. Also consider taking different types of classes (paper instead of exam perhaps) to bring up your grades. Clinics are typically a safe 179 if you do your work and don’t have any personality conflicts.

-Apply to as many NYC firms as you can. Do this ASAP. The vast majority are not grade sensitive when it comes to Chicago students. Applying just to Chicago firms is dangerous even for folks with solid grades and I am sorry you weren’t advised about that previously.
-Do you have a home market other than Chicago? Apply to firms there, including regional firms.
-Dig in to your background prior to law school and during 1L summer. Think about any niche practice areas you could make a compelling argument to join and reach out to partners to see where it leads. Do this regardless of market etc., just try to make a connection.

Why is applying to just Chicago firms dangerous? I was not advised of this by career services when I put in my bids...

NP. Applying to just Chicago firms is "dangerous" because it is the most sought after market by Chicago students. I would advise someone to also bid NYC until they have an offer in hand. To comfortably bid all Chicago for litigation, I would advise a 178.XX. OCS has always given bad advice...

[Anonymous User]

There is a lot to unpack here. I am assuming your transcript reads something like 172, 173, 173, 179. That’s not good. Figure out how to do better after you dive in to finding a job. Also consider taking different types of classes (paper instead of exam perhaps) to bring up your grades. Clinics are typically a safe 179 if you do your work and don’t have any personality conflicts.

-Apply to as many NYC firms as you can. Do this ASAP. The vast majority are not grade sensitive when it comes to Chicago students. Applying just to Chicago firms is dangerous even for folks with solid grades and I am sorry you weren’t advised about that previously.
-Do you have a home market other than Chicago? Apply to firms there, including regional firms.
-Dig in to your background prior to law school and during 1L summer. Think about any niche practice areas you could make a compelling argument to join and reach out to partners to see where it leads. Do this regardless of market etc., just try to make a connection.

Why is applying to just Chicago firms dangerous? I was not advised of this by career services when I put in my bids...

NP. Applying to just Chicago firms is "dangerous" because it is the most sought after market by Chicago students. I would advise someone to also bid NYC until they have an offer in hand. To comfortably bid all Chicago for litigation, I would advise a 178.XX. OCS has always given bad advice...

Sorry to continue to derail this topic: What would you advise as a minimum for any biglaw job in Chicago (litigation or transactional) and who are the top firms for litigation in Chicago in your opinion?

[Anonymous User]

There is a lot to unpack here. I am assuming your transcript reads something like 172, 173, 173, 179. That’s not good. Figure out how to do better after you dive in to finding a job. Also consider taking different types of classes (paper instead of exam perhaps) to bring up your grades. Clinics are typically a safe 179 if you do your work and don’t have any personality conflicts.

-Apply to as many NYC firms as you can. Do this ASAP. The vast majority are not grade sensitive when it comes to Chicago students. Applying just to Chicago firms is dangerous even for folks with solid grades and I am sorry you weren’t advised about that previously.
-Do you have a home market other than Chicago? Apply to firms there, including regional firms.
-Dig in to your background prior to law school and during 1L summer. Think about any niche practice areas you could make a compelling argument to join and reach out to partners to see where it leads. Do this regardless of market etc., just try to make a connection.

Why is applying to just Chicago firms dangerous? I was not advised of this by career services when I put in my bids...

NP. Applying to just Chicago firms is "dangerous" because it is the most sought after market by Chicago students. I would advise someone to also bid NYC until they have an offer in hand. To comfortably bid all Chicago for litigation, I would advise a 178.XX. OCS has always given bad advice...

Sorry to continue to derail this topic: What would you advise as a minimum for any biglaw job in Chicago (litigation or transactional) and who are the top firms for litigation in Chicago in your opinion?

The GPA data you have from OCS on Symplicity answers the first. Chambers & Partners answers the second.