First Year Associate Expectations Forum

[Itcamefromthesea]

At a lower V100, I did not take my laptop anywhere after hours or weekends unless I was expecting something. I did keep my phone around to respond to emails and indicate when I would/could start working on something. There is not much that comes up on a Saturday that can’t wait 30 minutes until you get home aside from a panicking client (which can usually be handled without a computer). You have to set boundaries to survive long term without burning out.

That being said, this advice is probably not universal and as a corp associate at a V5 some partners probably expect you to duck out of grandma’s funeral if something comes up.

[avenuem]

When am I expected to bring my laptop, as opposed to just my work phone, with me when I leave the house? If I leave for 20 mins to grab lunch? What about after business hours and on weekends? Is it safe to go to dinner on a Saturday night or to a doctor’s appointment on a Saturday without my laptop?

Unless you have a reason to expect that something might come up you need to drop everything for, all of those are situations where you don’t need to bring your laptop. (May vary based on practice group or the people you work with, I guess, but that all seems unreasonable to me.)

I agree with this post entirely, and that it's what I was saying. All of the above are reasonable situations to not bring your laptop. And, in response to Dcc617's bad comment above/on the prior page, if the teams you are on regularly expect work product on the weekends, then it is a good idea to carry your laptop if you're spending the weekend with someone.

[Anonymous User]

Terrible advice. Sure, if you're expecting or anticipating something going crazy, then plan to be able to get to your laptop within an hour or so. Amidst a weekend fire I've brought my laptop and mobile hotspot to a park before so I can shoot off a few emails without having to go all the way home.

If you're not expecting anything, don't worry about bringing your laptop unless you're going somewhere overnight. If something is out of the blue on a weekend you can just acknowledge receipt and tell them you'll get back to them once you're back in front of a computer.

Av is crazy.

Biglaw partner (albeit in litigation, not at a V5, and not in NYC) and agree 100% with this. Not responding is not OK, and "I'll do it Monday" is probably not ideal unless someone says it can wait until the week, but "Thanks, I'll handle in a few hours when I'm back in front of a computer" is virtually always fine unless you're in trial or something.

[Dcc617]

Unless I'm mistaken, didn't AV just finish their stub year?

[Yea All Right]

Terrible advice. Sure, if you're expecting or anticipating something going crazy, then plan to be able to get to your laptop within an hour or so. Amidst a weekend fire I've brought my laptop and mobile hotspot to a park before so I can shoot off a few emails without having to go all the way home.

If you're not expecting anything, don't worry about bringing your laptop unless you're going somewhere overnight. If something is out of the blue on a weekend you can just acknowledge receipt and tell them you'll get back to them once you're back in front of a computer.

Av is crazy.

Biglaw partner (albeit in litigation, not at a V5, and not in NYC) and agree 100% with this. Not responding is not OK, and "I'll do it Monday" is probably not ideal unless someone says it can wait until the week, but "Thanks, I'll handle in a few hours when I'm back in front of a computer" is virtually always fine unless you're in trial or something.

I think just a "Will do" and doing the task after the work week starts is fine if the request was received over the weekend (assuming they didn't specifically say they needed it done over the weekend).

[nixy]

When am I expected to bring my laptop, as opposed to just my work phone, with me when I leave the house? If I leave for 20 mins to grab lunch? What about after business hours and on weekends? Is it safe to go to dinner on a Saturday night or to a doctor’s appointment on a Saturday without my laptop?

Unless you have a reason to expect that something might come up you need to drop everything for, all of those are situations where you don’t need to bring your laptop. (May vary based on practice group or the people you work with, I guess, but that all seems unreasonable to me.)

I agree with this post entirely, and that it's what I was saying. All of the above are reasonable situations to not bring your laptop. And, in response to Dcc617's bad comment above/on the prior page, if the teams you are on regularly expect work product on the weekends, then it is a good idea to carry your laptop if you're spending the weekend with someone.

There’s a big difference between taking your laptop with if you’re spending the weekend away from your apartment, and taking your laptop with you to dinner or a doctor’s appointment on a Saturday.

[jotarokujo]

I think just a "Will do" and doing the task after the work week starts is fine if the request was received over the weekend (assuming they didn't specifically say they needed it done over the weekend).

completely agree with this. yeah, don't explicitly say "I won't do this until the week starts", but if you just drop a "will do" in response to a request that arrived on the weekend that didn't specify to do it asap/over the weekend, you certainly can hold off doing the task until the week starts. the presumption on a weekend task sent is not generally to do it over the weekend.

[Elston Gunn]

I think just a "Will do" and doing the task after the work week starts is fine if the request was received over the weekend (assuming they didn't specifically say they needed it done over the weekend).

completely agree with this. yeah, don't explicitly say "I won't do this until the week starts", but if you just drop a "will do" in response to a request that arrived on the weekend that didn't specify to do it asap/over the weekend, you certainly can hold off doing the task until the week starts. the presumption on a weekend task sent is not generally to do it over the weekend.

I’d be a little careful with this advice. Lawyers who are good managers will make clear when they need something done over the weekend, but lots of lawyers are terrible managers. I agree you shouldn’t always assume it needs to be done ASAP, but consider the context of where the matter stands and anything you know about the assigning lawyer before assuming it can wait til Monday. (It’s also almost always fine to ask when they would like to have it by.)

[emc91]

What about doctor’s appointments during the week if you schedule them at like 8 am on a Friday or something?

[Dcc617]

What about doctor’s appointments during the week if you schedule them at like 8 am on a Friday or something?

Just let people know you'll be out of pocket for a couple hours that morning and don't worry about it.

[Elston Gunn]

What about doctor’s appointments during the week if you schedule them at like 8 am on a Friday or something?

Just let people know you'll be out of pocket for a couple hours that morning and don't worry about it.

This is fine advice, but I would just mark my calendar busy and show up late for work without telling anyone, and never had an issue. People have meetings. But I also didn’t sit near the partners I worked with. (Obviously it’s different if you have a reason to expect something time sensitive to come up during that time.)

[avenuem]

When am I expected to bring my laptop, as opposed to just my work phone, with me when I leave the house? If I leave for 20 mins to grab lunch? What about after business hours and on weekends? Is it safe to go to dinner on a Saturday night or to a doctor’s appointment on a Saturday without my laptop?

Unless you have a reason to expect that something might come up you need to drop everything for, all of those are situations where you don’t need to bring your laptop. (May vary based on practice group or the people you work with, I guess, but that all seems unreasonable to me.)

I agree with this post entirely, and that it's what I was saying. All of the above are reasonable situations to not bring your laptop. And, in response to Dcc617's bad comment above/on the prior page, if the teams you are on regularly expect work product on the weekends, then it is a good idea to carry your laptop if you're spending the weekend with someone.

There’s a big difference between taking your laptop with if you’re spending the weekend away from your apartment, and taking your laptop with you to dinner or a doctor’s appointment on a Saturday.

Nixy, I said in my first post that it's not reasonable to bring a laptop to a doctor's appointment, so that's dishonest of you to mention.

Taking it to dinner with a fellow lawyer whose home you're visiting is debatable, though. I would do it. Adding that my friend is in a different city, and I'm not comfortable not having my laptop while a city away.

Unless I'm mistaken, didn't AV just finish their stub year?

Yes, with honors and fast-track to NSP partnership then partnership.

[nixy]

There’s a big difference between taking your laptop with if you’re spending the weekend away from your apartment, and taking your laptop with you to dinner or a doctor’s appointment on a Saturday.

Nixy, I said in my first post that it's not reasonable to bring a laptop to a doctor's appointment, so that's dishonest of you to mention.

Taking it to dinner with a fellow lawyer whose home you're visiting is debatable, though. I would do it. Adding that my friend is in a different city, and I'm not comfortable not having my laptop while a city away.

I didn't say that you thought someone should bring a laptop to a doctor's appointment, I was simply referencing the original hypothetical. No one asked whether you should take your laptop with you if you're away from your apartment for the weekend, and no one suggested you should. If you want to add facts to "dinner with a friend" that involve being in a different city, that's fine, but again, the original question was about very ordinary circumstances of an hour or two.

And dcc's "bad advice" was that you don't need to take your laptop with you if you're not expecting anything, unless you're going somewhere overnight. That's exactly the same thing as you saying that if the teams you're on expect work product on the weekend you should carry your laptop if you're spending the weekend with someone.

[avenuem]

There’s a big difference between taking your laptop with if you’re spending the weekend away from your apartment, and taking your laptop with you to dinner or a doctor’s appointment on a Saturday.

Nixy, I said in my first post that it's not reasonable to bring a laptop to a doctor's appointment, so that's dishonest of you to mention.

Taking it to dinner with a fellow lawyer whose home you're visiting is debatable, though. I would do it. Adding that my friend is in a different city, and I'm not comfortable not having my laptop while a city away.

I didn't say that you thought someone should bring a laptop to a doctor's appointment, I was simply referencing the original hypothetical. No one asked whether you should take your laptop with you if you're away from your apartment for the weekend, and no one suggested you should. If you want to add facts to "dinner with a friend" that involve being in a different city, that's fine, but again, the original question was about very ordinary circumstances of an hour or two.

And dcc's "bad advice" was that you don't need to take your laptop with you if you're not expecting anything, unless you're going somewhere overnight. That's exactly the same thing as you saying that if the teams you're on expect work product on the weekend you should carry your laptop if you're spending the weekend with someone.

No, it isn't. It's the inverse.

Misnomers like that will take you out of running for partner. You're welcome.

[nixy]

Good thing I'm not trying for partner, then.

How about: in practice, they mean the same thing for what you should do with your laptop.

[avenuem]

Good thing I'm not trying for partner, then.

How about: in practice, they mean the same thing for what you should do with your laptop.

yes. thx

[Anonymous User]

One thing to watch out for is being TOO nervous yourself. Remember your goal is to hang here for at least a few years and stack that $$$. If you start being afraid of your shadow and worrying you're doing it wrong too extremely, your quality of life might suffer and you might burn out. Try hard, but also relax after you press 'send.'

This is me. I feel like I’m suffering in a way that’s not proportionate to my hours, because I’m scared all the time. I can’t seem to shake the constant fear of doing something wrong and it’s making me want to start looking at alternative careers already.

I vibe with this for sure

[Anonymous User]

One thing to watch out for is being TOO nervous yourself. Remember your goal is to hang here for at least a few years and stack that $$$. If you start being afraid of your shadow and worrying you're doing it wrong too extremely, your quality of life might suffer and you might burn out. Try hard, but also relax after you press 'send.'

This is me. I feel like I’m suffering in a way that’s not proportionate to my hours, because I’m scared all the time. I can’t seem to shake the constant fear of doing something wrong and it’s making me want to start looking at alternative careers already.

I vibe with this for sure

Same here. It doesn't help that training/direction has been abysmal so far.

[Elston Gunn]

One thing to watch out for is being TOO nervous yourself. Remember your goal is to hang here for at least a few years and stack that $$$. If you start being afraid of your shadow and worrying you're doing it wrong too extremely, your quality of life might suffer and you might burn out. Try hard, but also relax after you press 'send.'

This is me. I feel like I’m suffering in a way that’s not proportionate to my hours, because I’m scared all the time. I can’t seem to shake the constant fear of doing something wrong and it’s making me want to start looking at alternative careers already.

I vibe with this for sure

Same here. It doesn't help that training/direction has been abysmal so far.

Some things to remember:
—You have likely heard and read about a lot of horror stories, but the large majority of people who leave Biglaw do so by choice, not because they are forced to. Once you have your foot in the door, you can last longer than you expect at most places even if you have a mediocre reputation, and even if you get pushed out, it’s usually not hard to lateral.
— As a very junior associate, you are expected to make mistakes. Be diligent, make deadlines, be responsive, and try to learn from your mistakes, but no one is going to hold it against you even if you screw up. There’s a reason there are 2-4 people reviewing every doc you work on before it goes out the door.
— Once you last a couple of years, you are making a lot of money for the partners, even despite your huge salary. You become valuable quickly, even when it feels like you’re making mistakes, and you are probably improving more quickly than you realize. You’re not going to get fired over some typos.

[Anonymous User]

One thing to watch out for is being TOO nervous yourself. Remember your goal is to hang here for at least a few years and stack that $$$. If you start being afraid of your shadow and worrying you're doing it wrong too extremely, your quality of life might suffer and you might burn out. Try hard, but also relax after you press 'send.'

This is me. I feel like I’m suffering in a way that’s not proportionate to my hours, because I’m scared all the time. I can’t seem to shake the constant fear of doing something wrong and it’s making me want to start looking at alternative careers already.

I vibe with this for sure

Same here. It doesn't help that training/direction has been abysmal so far.

— As a very junior associate, you are expected to make mistakes. Be diligent, make deadlines, be responsive, and try to learn from your mistakes, but no one is going to hold it against you even if you screw up. There’s a reason there are 2-4 people reviewing every doc you work on before it goes out the door.

There are actually NOT 2-4 people reviewing my documents, which is why I am panicking 24/7. I'm lucky if I get one person to do a half-ass review. Not sure if people are just too busy or there is just reckless management going on because it just doesn't seem right.

[Anonymous User]

Same. And I worry when I’m slow and worry when I’m swamped because I’m nervous I will mess up.

[Elston Gunn]

If no one is reviewing your docs thoroughly before they go out, it’s likely because they aren’t important enough where a mistake will matter. I don’t want to overemphasize this, because it’s important to own responsibility for preventing errors, but if something truly gets fucked up, it’s not really on you and you’ll still likely be fine.

[Anonymous User]

If no one is reviewing your docs thoroughly before they go out, it’s likely because they aren’t important enough where a mistake will matter. I don’t want to overemphasize this, because it’s important to own responsibility for preventing errors, but if something truly gets fucked up, it’s not really on you and you’ll still likely be fine.

Appreciate your perspective. Some of these seem to be actually important documents. It's causing me so much anxiety that I'm already looking at exit opportunities as soon as I hit the 1 year mark. My experience seems abnormal from talking to others in their first year in other practice groups/firms.

[Anonymous User]

If no one is reviewing your docs thoroughly before they go out, it’s likely because they aren’t important enough where a mistake will matter. I don’t want to overemphasize this, because it’s important to own responsibility for preventing errors, but if something truly gets fucked up, it’s not really on you and you’ll still likely be fine.

Appreciate your perspective. Some of these seem to be actually important documents. It's causing me so much anxiety that I'm already looking at exit opportunities as soon as I hit the 1 year mark. My experience seems abnormal from talking to others in their first year in other practice groups/firms.

Well I must be a huge wimp because I’m looking to leave at the 6 month mark lol

[Anonymous User]

If no one is reviewing your docs thoroughly before they go out, it’s likely because they aren’t important enough where a mistake will matter. I don’t want to overemphasize this, because it’s important to own responsibility for preventing errors, but if something truly gets fucked up, it’s not really on you and you’ll still likely be fine.

Appreciate your perspective. Some of these seem to be actually important documents. It's causing me so much anxiety that I'm already looking at exit opportunities as soon as I hit the 1 year mark. My experience seems abnormal from talking to others in their first year in other practice groups/firms.

Well I must be a huge wimp because I’m looking to leave at the 6 month mark lol

Lol honestly I'd leave earlier but for financial reasons.