Fear and BigLaw Forum

[LawrenceGazebo]

Put it in perspective -- if you are a doctor and make a mistake, someone can die. If you are an engineer and make a mistake, a bridge can fall down. Hell, even a truck driver making $45k a year is responsible for people's lives. In law, you aren't going to kill anyone. Almost everything is (fairly easily) fixable, and the things that aren't fixable are not things you will (or should) be doing as a new associate. If you make a careless typo, nothing bad happens except some miserable partner bitches a little bit (who cares); if you make a substantive mistake that actually matters, then its the firm's fault as much as yours for not training/checking you.

Just dont be afraid of miserable people bitching at you. Just get okay to sitting in an office and just saying "okay, got it" while not really listening.

This should probably just be posted at the top of TLS and can probably become the answer for about 80% of all threads.

[bonusnewsnow]

That fear is a feature, not a bug. It's how they ensure you perform when doing tedious work that requires constant careful attention. It's how they ensure that you don't skip steps out of boredom or sloppiness. You know and they know that you'll be out if they catch you doing that.

[Anonymous User]

This feeling -- anxious when busy but also anxious when not -- never really goes away completely. I've seen junior partners at my firm (V-10 / corp) become very anxious on some matters and this after they were recently given an outsize dose validation by being made partner in the first place.

My primary care doc from my (relatively rural) hometown was more than happy to prescribe anti-anxiety medication after hearing me describe this (apparently the DSM says that worry about "everyday, routine life circumstances, such as possible job responsibilities" is common in people with anxiety). When I tried to re-fill it in NYC, my doc told me that biglaw and certain finance jobs don't present "routine" life circumstances, and the anxiety wasn't a pathological disorder ("you control the stressor -- just quit").

In some ways this this should help people just starting to find comfort in company, but it's kind of a sad state of affairs overall tbh.

[cavalier1138]

My primary care doc from my (relatively rural) hometown was more than happy to prescribe anti-anxiety medication after hearing me describe this (apparently the DSM says that worry about "everyday, routine life circumstances, such as possible job responsibilities" is common in people with anxiety). When I tried to re-fill it in NYC, my doc told me that biglaw and certain finance jobs don't present "routine" life circumstances, and the anxiety wasn't a pathological disorder ("you control the stressor -- just quit").

I know this isn't the same problem the OP faces, but get a new doctor if this is the case (or just get the meds prescribed through a different doctor). It's borderline malpractice to deny someone psychiatric meds because "you can quit your job."

[Dahl]

That feeling of dread and anxiety never went away for me while I was in BigLaw. And though I’ve had very stressful and busy times in government, I’ve never had that same feeling of dread. For me it was very tied to the culture of billing and always needing to be available for partners whose needs felt like a mystery to me. It had little to do with the actual work.

Had I stayed longer and had just one partner to work for who I felt I understood I think it would have gotten better.

[Anonymous User]

That feeling of dread and anxiety never went away for me while I was in BigLaw. And though I’ve had very stressful and busy times in government, I’ve never had that same feeling of dread. For me it was very tied to the culture of billing and always needing to be available for partners whose needs felt like a mystery to me. It had little to do with the actual work.

Had I stayed longer and had just one partner to work for who I felt I understood I think it would have gotten better.

Same here. It resulted in some serious mental health problems that I never came close to experiencing before or since. The biggest stressors were a few tyrannical partners and having to be on call 24/7. I felt like I could never turn off my phone or my brain and was stressing about work every waking minute and often even in dreams. The work itself and billables never bothered me, even the long work hours didn't stress me out that much when they were predictable. It was just the constant background worry about some insane partner losing his or her temper over nothing or emailing me at 9pm demanding something by the next morning. I honestly don't know how people survive in big law for more than a few years (except for those rare associates who get lucky with great partners).

[Anonymous User]

I just started and have already turned in two assignments with typos. They were both to attorneys in different offices and both let it slide with a laugh. However, I'm very stressed about not catching typos when turning around long documents quickly and late at night. Not sure if anyone has solutions

[Elston Gunn]

I just started and have already turned in two assignments with typos. They were both to attorneys in different offices and both let it slide with a laugh. However, I'm very stressed about not catching typos when turning around long documents quickly and late at night. Not sure if anyone has solutions

People can give you good tips about this (print it out, read aloud, have your secretary read it if possible), but the best advice is try but just don’t care that much. Lots of people (including me) have had successful Biglaw careers even with never figuring out how to stop making a decent number of typos. Certain partners will get mad about it, but as others have said ITT an important skill in Biglaw is just not caring about the bullshit that won’t actually get you fired.

(Maybe this is different if you’re in corporate. I know people sometimes think it’s more substantively important there.)

[Sackboy]

(Maybe this is different if you’re in corporate. I know people sometimes think it’s more substantively important there.)

99% of the time the typo in corporate doesn't matter. Just don't go flubbing percentages, large numbers, the company's name, etc. (which should all be caught by a mid level anyway). It's not because it matters. It doesn't, because it will get caught. These are just the typos that make it look like you're paying less attention than others. "Like, really, X? You didn't notice that you put that we're paying Y $100,000 in severance instead of $10,000 when all the documents say Y should be getting paid $10,000?" People will actually get annoyed by those. If you have a random spelling error, inserted an oxford comma when you shouldn't have, or missed the capitalization of a random defined term, nobody is going to bat an eye, except an annoying partner.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a first year and just made my first "I should have known better" mistake (doing redactions in a contract, but forgot a couple). The associate just reminded me to double-check the redlines more carefully next time...and then we moved on to the next thing.

I still feel bad because I definitely could have planned my time better to look over everything one more time (I returned these on a day when I had 8 things due at the same time). But it's also nice to know that the world didn't collapse, and also that the associate didn't just cut me off of the matter over this.

[Anonymous User]

I disagree with others here. That sense of dread does become less severe as you develop confidence and improve your skills. You also get desensitized to it a bit.

[Anonymous User]

4th year here, the anxiety only decreased when i stopped caring if i keep the job. just remember, it's not you that sucks, it's the job.

[avenuem]

I just started and have already turned in two assignments with typos. They were both to attorneys in different offices and both let it slide with a laugh. However, I'm very stressed about not catching typos when turning around long documents quickly and late at night. Not sure if anyone has solutions

How did a typo even come up as something for them to laugh about? Who brought it up? Or was the typo funny enough for people to not only notice it, but make a point to email laughter or comment on it?

Personally, I'm a first year. I don't make typos often, and care about doing good work, but would not give more than a single, momentary shit if I did make a typo. I see partners do it regularly enough (not an excuse for me to be lasadaisical, I know, but it shows how normal and not a big deal it is). Freaking out about typos is a choice.

[lolwutpar]

4th year here, the anxiety only decreased when i stopped caring if i keep the job. just remember, it's not you that sucks, it's the job.

TCR

[Definitely Not North]

4th year here, the anxiety only decreased when i stopped caring if i keep the job. just remember, it's not you that sucks, it's the job.

TCR

Yep

[Lestersandy]

4th year here, the anxiety only decreased when i stopped caring if i keep the job. just remember, it's not you that sucks, it's the job.

TCR

Yep

Can’t agree with this enough.

[Anonymous User]

Anon from above. Both times were situations where I turned in work product and was told after by a supervising attorney that I should proofread for typos better. When I say laughed it off, I mean that they wanted to let me know about the typos, but did so in a friendly, non-angry way.

I personally would not use partners’ work as a metric to evaluate my own. Partners add value through some combination of legal expertise and back-slipping skills—neither of which I have some six months out of law school. I can’t imagine I’d get away with sending a lot of “see above, thx - a sent from my iphone” emails

I just started and have already turned in two assignments with typos. They were both to attorneys in different offices and both let it slide with a laugh. However, I'm very stressed about not catching typos when turning around long documents quickly and late at night. Not sure if anyone has solutions

How did a typo even come up as something for them to laugh about? Who brought it up? Or was the typo funny enough for people to not only notice it, but make a point to email laughter or comment on it?

Personally, I'm a first year. I don't make typos often, and care about doing good work, but would not give more than a single, momentary shit if I did make a typo. I see partners do it regularly enough (not an excuse for me to be lasadaisical, I know, but it shows how normal and not a big deal it is). Freaking out about typos is a choice.

[Lesion of Doom]

I am a second year and struggle with this daily at certain times of year. Other times, I worry why I'm not getting any work, if my billables will be conspicuously low, etc.

The better news is that I'm down to 90k in loans, and seeing that number drop to five digits made me feel a lot better. There's an end to this ahead.

[thisismytlsuername]

Anon from above. Both times were situations where I turned in work product and was told after by a supervising attorney that I should proofread for typos better. When I say laughed it off, I mean that they wanted to let me know about the typos, but did so in a friendly, non-angry way.

I personally would not use partners’ work as a metric to evaluate my own. Partners add value through some combination of legal expertise and back-slipping skills—neither of which I have some six months out of law school. I can’t imagine I’d get away with sending a lot of “see above, thx - a sent from my iphone” emails

Someone telling you that you need to proofread better but doing it nicely isn't "laughing it off", it's giving constructive feedback and trying not to be an asshole about it. You should listen, especially if this has already happened twice. I get very annoyed when I have to give the same feedback to the same person multiple times.

[whats an updog]

Anon from above. Both times were situations where I turned in work product and was told after by a supervising attorney that I should proofread for typos better. When I say laughed it off, I mean that they wanted to let me know about the typos, but did so in a friendly, non-angry way.

I personally would not use partners’ work as a metric to evaluate my own. Partners add value through some combination of legal expertise and back-slipping skills—neither of which I have some six months out of law school. I can’t imagine I’d get away with sending a lot of “see above, thx - a sent from my iphone” emails

Someone telling you that you need to proofread better but doing it nicely isn't "laughing it off", it's giving constructive feedback and trying not to be an asshole about it. You should listen, especially if this has already happened twice. I get very annoyed when I have to give the same feedback to the same person multiple times.

Sure, but without better information we can't really understand whether the supervisor is a dick or the new associate is fucking up. Given that the new associate is neurotic enough to get on TLS and discuss their fucking up, I would guess that it's the former, but who knows. Everyone has typos, even after reviewing, sending to word processing for a cold read, and reviewing again. If a supervisor is griping about a couple here or there then they should fuck off. If the new associate is turning in a typo-riddled document where they didn't even bother to use word's automated spellcheck, that's a different story. In any case, I'd rather work with someone who makes typos but is trying over someone who is flawless but gets "very annoyed".

[Anonymous User]

Anon from above. To be clear, both were dumbass typos on my part. Body of document entirely clean of errors, but then fuck-ups in the headings. The associates that let me know were being quite kind and helpful. My original post more related to stressing out about glazing over these typos when turning in documents late at night with short turnaround periods. Did not mean for the debate to become over whether the associates laughed it off vs. provided constructive feedback. Apologies for faulty phraseology.

Someone telling you that you need to proofread better but doing it nicely isn't "laughing it off", it's giving constructive feedback and trying not to be an asshole about it. You should listen, especially if this has already happened twice. I get very annoyed when I have to give the same feedback to the same person multiple times.

Sure, but without better information we can't really understand whether the supervisor is a dick or the new associate is fucking up. Given that the new associate is neurotic enough to get on TLS and discuss their fucking up, I would guess that it's the former, but who knows. Everyone has typos, even after reviewing, sending to word processing for a cold read, and reviewing again. If a supervisor is griping about a couple here or there then they should fuck off. If the new associate is turning in a typo-riddled document where they didn't even bother to use word's automated spellcheck, that's a different story. In any case, I'd rather work with someone who makes typos but is trying over someone who is flawless but gets "very annoyed".

[Anonymous User]

Anonymous because I can be outted based on post history and specificity of this question.

Last Friday, a senior associate assigned midlevels and juniors on a case I'm on specific tasks due this Monday. Over the weekend a midlevel privately asked me to do their assigned portion, because they were busy. Today the midlevel turned it in as if they did it with no credit. Is this normal? Should I have said no?

I know it's normal for a senior to give a midlevel an assignment and for the midlevel to pass it down, and no credit. But it feels different when the senior specifically assigned us roles.

[DoveBodyWash]

Anonymous because I can be outted based on post history and specificity of this question.

Last Friday, a senior associate assigned midlevels and juniors on a case I'm on specific tasks due this Monday. Over the weekend a midlevel privately asked me to do their assigned portion, because they were busy. Today the midlevel turned it in as if they did it with no credit. Is this normal? Should I have said no?

I know it's normal for a senior to give a midlevel an assignment and for the midlevel to pass it down, and no credit. But it feels different when the senior specifically assigned us roles.

Kind of depends on what the actual task was and whether the midlevel reviewed it before kicking it up. When I delegate work, it's mostly based on the complexity of the assignment (and partially who seems to have time). I would be annoyed if I specifically asked my midlevel to do something and he/she just had the junior do it and turned it in without looking it over. If he/she reviewed and cleaned it up first, then I don't care as long as it got done. But agree that acknowledging that the junior helped would have been the classier and more transparent thing to do - in part because it tells me something about the junior's capabilities

[Anonymous User]

Anonymous because I can be outted based on post history and specificity of this question.

Last Friday, a senior associate assigned midlevels and juniors on a case I'm on specific tasks due this Monday. Over the weekend a midlevel privately asked me to do their assigned portion, because they were busy. Today the midlevel turned it in as if they did it with no credit. Is this normal? Should I have said no?

I know it's normal for a senior to give a midlevel an assignment and for the midlevel to pass it down, and no credit. But it feels different when the senior specifically assigned us roles.

Kind of depends on what the actual task was and whether the midlevel reviewed it before kicking it up. When I delegate work, it's mostly based on the complexity of the assignment (and partially who seems to have time). I would be annoyed if I specifically asked my midlevel to do something and he/she just had the junior do it and turned it in without looking it over. If he/she reviewed and cleaned it up first, then I don't care as long as it got done. But agree that acknowledging that the junior helped would have been the classier and more transparent thing to do - in part because it tells me something about the junior's capabilities

Okay, this is helpful. I won't say what the task was because I'm worried about the off (on?) chance the midlevel lurks this forum. But they didn't change any of my work before sending it. Thanks.

Also your avatar is amazing.

[Elston Gunn]

Yeah, it was a dick move for the mid level to send it on without really reviewing or give you credit. For sure. But also there’s not much you can do, and you did the right thing.