Quality of Life in California Forum

[Anonymous User]

Could those recommending Latham and GDC elaborate a bit more on how they compare in terms of QOL?

I interviewed at both and know people at both. They're pretty similar in terms of hours expectations, although quite different culturally. (GDC is more serious, conservative, cerebral, and polite; Latham is more aggressive and bro-y.) GDC will probably be more attractive if you liked Munger and Keker, while Latham is culturally more like Skadden, Quinn, etc. I'd pick based on culture rather than practice area strengths, since they are both very good litigation shops in LA and, to a lesser extent, in the Bay Area.

[plantcoveredbuilding]

The comments here are ridiculous.

MTO a paradise? I looked up a few of MTO's current cases. They're representing Kobe's wife against the helicopter company, Intel in a securities case and some obscure company in some business case. It's the same kind of cases you'll get at every other firm. Look them up and look at the MTO people you'll be working with. Same kind of people you'll see at every other firm. Let me put it this way, no one is making a reality show about any of these people. They're all people with personality problems.

If you want a "lifestyle," you need to go into academia or government, or open your own law firm. That's the heirarchy of happiness in law. At the top are people with their own viable firms. Second are tenured academics or people in government (both worthless and lazy people in jobs they can't get fired from). Last are associates in biglaw, which is the toilet of the profession. Your mouth is the toilet and some partner's asshole is what feeds you. Your job in biglaw is to bill as much as you can, minimum 3-4x your salary, and it doesn't matter how stressful that is for you. The only way to have a "lifestyle" experience in biglaw is to lie about your intentions during your interview, and then coast for a few years before they push you out for not working hard enough.

[plantcoveredbuilding]

I just had a hearty laugh scrolling through the people at MTO. Paradise definitely means stressful time-crunch work and being on call 24 hours a day, surrounded by these people. https://www.mto.com/lawyers

Why are some people so lucky?!?!?!

[namefromplace]

The comments here are ridiculous.

MTO a paradise? I looked up a few of MTO's current cases. They're representing Kobe's wife against the helicopter company, Intel in a securities case and some obscure company in some business case. It's the same kind of cases you'll get at every other firm. Look them up and look at the MTO people you'll be working with. Same kind of people you'll see at every other firm. Let me put it this way, no one is making a reality show about any of these people. They're all people with personality problems.

If you want a "lifestyle," you need to go into academia or government, or open your own law firm. That's the heirarchy of happiness in law. At the top are people with their own viable firms. Second are tenured academics or people in government (both worthless and lazy people in jobs they can't get fired from). Last are associates in biglaw, which is the toilet of the profession. Your mouth is the toilet and some partner's asshole is what feeds you. Your job in biglaw is to bill as much as you can, minimum 3-4x your salary, and it doesn't matter how stressful that is for you. The only way to have a "lifestyle" experience in biglaw is to lie about your intentions during your interview, and then coast for a few years before they push you out for not working hard enough.

I like how you think that a lack of personality problems is what makes someone a good candidate for a reality TV show, or that working with people who aren't the subject of a reality TV show is somehow a bad thing.

[Anonymous User]

How are GDC and Latham OC? Would love hear if there is work from home flexibility and the like.

[Anonymous User]

With everything going remote these days anyways, does relocation even really matter?

[plantcoveredbuilding]

How are GDC and Latham OC? Would love hear if there is work from home flexibility and the like.

We'll see what the landscape looks like post-covid. Pre-covid, excessive WFH was an option, but a risky one because it signaled that you didn't like your coworkers.

If you really want insider info, I wouldn't ask here. This board is a mix of law students, people in small and flyover towns who want a peek into big city lawyer life, worthless government lawyers sitting on their asses and posting bullshit (like the woman who trashed O'Melveny and called MTO as a unicorn) and a few overworked biglawyers who come for bonus news and stick around holding their nose. I stopped taking this site seriously when I learned it's run by a legal recruiter, and saw admin Megan's linked (she's a "Marketing Specialist & Manager of Top-Law-Schools.com at Employment Research Institute (ERI).") This site is a joke.

Instead of asking here, check lateral.ly's "move tracker." It lists every associate who left each law firm in the last five years. You can then call or write a few of them, perhaps your fellow alumni, and ask them for information. You're probably wasting your time if you do that, though, because the firms are similar.

[nixy]

You sound fun.

[Anonymous User]

You sound fun.

Wouldn't that actually INCREASE the odds of accuracy?

[nixy]

You sound fun.

Wouldn't that actually INCREASE the odds of accuracy?

[Anonymous User]

You sound fun.

Wouldn't that actually INCREASE the odds of accuracy?

Exactly

[Anonymous User]

I work at a socal office of one of those firms. I would guess that it is entirely practice group specific, but generally speaking, I find that no one expects you to be in touch on weekends, holidays, or vacations unless there is something big going on. There is still work on weekends out of simple necessity, but I rarely have a situation where someone is emailing me or wanting to get on a call on the weekend. Still expect to bill at least 1900. So whatever that means for you. When I work with people in NY it seems more intense (not because they necessarily bill more, just seems something culturally).

How are GDC and Latham OC? Would love hear if there is work from home flexibility and the like.

We'll see what the landscape looks like post-covid. Pre-covid, excessive WFH was an option, but a risky one because it signaled that you didn't like your coworkers.

If you really want insider info, I wouldn't ask here. This board is a mix of law students, people in small and flyover towns who want a peek into big city lawyer life, worthless government lawyers sitting on their asses and posting bullshit (like the woman who trashed O'Melveny and called MTO as a unicorn) and a few overworked biglawyers who come for bonus news and stick around holding their nose. I stopped taking this site seriously when I learned it's run by a legal recruiter, and saw admin Megan's linked (she's a "Marketing Specialist & Manager of Top-Law-Schools.com at Employment Research Institute (ERI).") This site is a joke.

Instead of asking here, check lateral.ly's "move tracker." It lists every associate who left each law firm in the last five years. You can then call or write a few of them, perhaps your fellow alumni, and ask them for information. You're probably wasting your time if you do that, though, because the firms are similar.

This is dumb. Sure, take whatever you find on this site with a grain of salt, but thinking that people who have left a firm have a more honest view of it than people still there is silly. Both will have biased perspectives.

[plantcoveredbuilding]

I work at a socal office of one of those firms. I would guess that it is entirely practice group specific, but generally speaking, I find that no one expects you to be in touch on weekends, holidays, or vacations unless there is something big going on. There is still work on weekends out of simple necessity, but I rarely have a situation where someone is emailing me or wanting to get on a call on the weekend. Still expect to bill at least 1900. So whatever that means for you. When I work with people in NY it seems more intense (not because they necessarily bill more, just seems something culturally).

How are GDC and Latham OC? Would love hear if there is work from home flexibility and the like.

We'll see what the landscape looks like post-covid. Pre-covid, excessive WFH was an option, but a risky one because it signaled that you didn't like your coworkers.

If you really want insider info, I wouldn't ask here. This board is a mix of law students, people in small and flyover towns who want a peek into big city lawyer life, worthless government lawyers sitting on their asses and posting bullshit (like the woman who trashed O'Melveny and called MTO as a unicorn) and a few overworked biglawyers who come for bonus news and stick around holding their nose. I stopped taking this site seriously when I learned it's run by a legal recruiter, and saw admin Megan's linked (she's a "Marketing Specialist & Manager of Top-Law-Schools.com at Employment Research Institute (ERI).") This site is a joke.

Instead of asking here, check lateral.ly's "move tracker." It lists every associate who left each law firm in the last five years. You can then call or write a few of them, perhaps your fellow alumni, and ask them for information. You're probably wasting your time if you do that, though, because the firms are similar.

This is dumb. Sure, take whatever you find on this site with a grain of salt, but thinking that people who have left a firm have a more honest view of it than people still there is silly. Both will have biased perspectives.

Yes, so dumb. The smart thing to do, is to call people at the firm you'll be interviewing at and expect them to be honest with you. Associates love to be known as the person who dissuaded a potential recruit. Or better yet, get it from some rando on a forum who has as much chance of being a bored troll as they do of being an associate at the firm.

[Anonymous User]

Somewhat related question: what's the general perception of the CA satellite offices of more D.C.-focused firms? Specifically curious about Covington, Arnold & Porter, and Hogan Lovells.

My sense (from practicing in CA) is that Covington and A&P both have good reputations in California and that their Bay Area offices are stronger than their LA counterparts. This is particularly true for A&P, which absorbed a very good San Francisco firm (Howard Rice) around a decade ago. They are both reportedly pretty good places for work-life balance as biglaw goes. I don't think Hogan is a major player in CA, at least not for litigation work.

Can confirm about A&P work-life balance; I know this is about as good as it gets in biglaw, which is why I'll never go to another firm. SF vs LA office strength doesn't really matter because work isn't siloed into a particular office, teams are staffed across all offices in the firm. Go where you like the weather and where you can buy a house (haha, welcome to LA).

I'd avoid HH if you're trying to avoid sweatshops.

[Anonymous User]

What's the trade-off in terms of compensation between these California firms? It sounds like HH has rough hours, but I hear they pay more.

How do Munger and Keker, which I imagine are better hours-wise than most biglaw firms, compare? What about longer-term, in terms of (junior) partner compensation?

[Anonymous User]

What about Gibson Dunn OC. I’ve heard good things about the hours (considering big law standards). Is this true?

[The Lsat Airbender]

What about Gibson Dunn OC. I’ve heard good things about the hours (considering big law standards). Is this true?

If you have to ask, you probably can't work there. OC is super ties-sensitive.

[Anonymous User]

Would anyone mind diving into the cultures at places like Irell, MTO, HH, KVN relative to one another? Any pros and cons? I was interested in applying to some of these firms, but intel is hard to come by.

[Anonymous User]

OP, you're not going to get the "work-life" balance you're probably looking for in LA or SF. San Diego is a smaller legal market, but the work-life balance is vastly superior to those other markets (I came from a larger market and the difference is night and day). Cooley and Latham are the two biggest in terms of headcount in SD. Jones Day, MoFo, Perkins Coie, SheppardMullin, and DLA also all have offices down here. I definitely recommend considering SD if you want to work in big law and have time with your family.

[Anonymous User]

What about Gibson Dunn OC. I’ve heard good things about the hours (considering big law standards). Is this true?

If you have to ask, you probably can't work there. OC is super ties-sensitive.

Yes and no. You don't have to have grown up in OC to land a job there, you just have to be able to articulate a reason that you'd like to be in OC long term.

As far as "hours," for Gibson OC, i'm not sure what that really means. The billable hours requirement is the same for OC associates as it is firm-wide. If you mean "facetime" hours, then yes, the office empties out around 5-6 PM, and everyone just signs back on from home a couple hours later after dinner, but with WFH that is moot (even after we return to the office, I suspect many "facetime" offices will have a lot of trouble going back to the status quo ante).

(Anon because have worked at GDC OC)

[Anonymous User]

What about Gibson Dunn OC. I’ve heard good things about the hours (considering big law standards). Is this true?

If you have to ask, you probably can't work there. OC is super ties-sensitive.

Yes and no. You don't have to have grown up in OC to land a job there, you just have to be able to articulate a reason that you'd like to be in OC long term.

As far as "hours," for Gibson OC, i'm not sure what that really means. The billable hours requirement is the same for OC associates as it is firm-wide. If you mean "facetime" hours, then yes, the office empties out around 5-6 PM, and everyone just signs back on from home a couple hours later after dinner, but with WFH that is moot (even after we return to the office, I suspect many "facetime" offices will have a lot of trouble going back to the status quo ante).

(Anon because have worked at GDC OC)

Thank you, this is helpful. My spouse and I are considering OC because we have a young child and want to settle somewhere most family friendly (we're trying to avoid LA, SF). With covid, my spouse is able to wfh indefinitely so OC checks all of our boxes (family friendly, safe, good schools, good year-round weather, affordable-ish homes). Think that is enough reason? We otherwise don't have family nearby, but do have friends in OC.

[Anonymous User]

Your QOL will depend on a large extent on the people with whom you work. I’m at firm whose California office is known for having a relatively good work life balance. And I adore my California colleagues, all of whom are great. But unfortunately, I’m on a few matters with east coast colleagues who can’t even respect a single vacation per year.

[Anonymous User]

What about Gibson Dunn OC. I’ve heard good things about the hours (considering big law standards). Is this true?

If you have to ask, you probably can't work there. OC is super ties-sensitive.

Yes and no. You don't have to have grown up in OC to land a job there, you just have to be able to articulate a reason that you'd like to be in OC long term.

As far as "hours," for Gibson OC, i'm not sure what that really means. The billable hours requirement is the same for OC associates as it is firm-wide. If you mean "facetime" hours, then yes, the office empties out around 5-6 PM, and everyone just signs back on from home a couple hours later after dinner, but with WFH that is moot (even after we return to the office, I suspect many "facetime" offices will have a lot of trouble going back to the status quo ante).

(Anon because have worked at GDC OC)

Thank you, this is helpful. My spouse and I are considering OC because we have a young child and want to settle somewhere most family friendly (we're trying to avoid LA, SF). With covid, my spouse is able to wfh indefinitely so OC checks all of our boxes (family friendly, safe, good schools, good year-round weather, affordable-ish homes). Think that is enough reason? We otherwise don't have family nearby, but do have friends in OC.

Anon who posted about SD. SD and OC are similar in that they both care about ties. However, having ties to the area is really about crafting a compelling reason for why you want to live/work in OC/SD. Firms are concerned that people are going to up and leave after a year because they are bored and/or unhappy. I think having friends, being familiar with the area, and having a compelling reason for wanting to be there are more than sufficient to make up for the fact that you don't have family there.

[Anonymous User]

Interesting! Which San Diego firms are best for general litigation?

[Anonymous User]

Interesting! Which San Diego firms are best for general litigation?

Latham and Cooley have the two largest general lit practices (e.g., 15+ associates and probably 10ish+ partners). Cooley is probably the best for general litigation (the firm has also been rapidly growing over the past 5 years) and the firm's global head of litigation is based in SD. In terms of local litigation, Jones Day probably handles the most. JD handled the big Apple v. Qualcomm case from a few years ago and it seems like a lot of the local federal clerks end up there (my guess is that it's because the head of the office used to be the US Attorney for the Southern District of CA).

If you're interested in white/collar + lit, both Latham and JD do a fair amount of that down here. But again, Cooley is probably the best for general lit.

Hope that helps.