How bad is Big Law life? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Just want to hone in on the mental pressure being a huge factor, whether or not you are busy by big law standards, regular job standards, or whatever. As someone who jumped from Big Law to a top local as a mid-level, I can tell you that the pay cut was 100% worth the mental relief. It certainly took some time to reverse my conditioning, but I no longer panic at the sound of my phone after 6 pm or on a weekend. Even when it is work, unless it truly is an emergency, nothing can't wait until tomorrow/Monday. And when it can't wait, the amount of apologetic the partners and clients are for asking, and the amount of appreciative they are for the work, truly feels genuine and is a big motivational boost. Making the choice for me literally came down to calculating "Can I live the lifestyle I want with a paycut of X%?" As soon as the answer was "Yes", I left and have no intention of ever looking back.

I want to second this. Just before COVID, I made the jump (as a midlevel) from a top DC lit practice to government. Took a big pay cut, but the improvement to my mental health was 100% worth it. It is awful to wake up some mornings and think "hope I can juggle my work well enough this week that I'm doing most of it during normal work hours and don't have lots of late nights/weekends." The billable hour is what makes biglaw suck—though you might already be aware of that/be okay with it.

Also, this probably depends on the person, but I really found myself having moral qualms about a lot of the work I was doing/clients I was spending a lot of time representing. In my experience, you turn into a harder, colder person the longer you spend in biglaw.

Finally, I enjoy having interests and passions outside biglaw. Perhaps this is just my limited experience, but a large number of biglaw attorneys I know have a somewhat zombie-like affect outside the office, and don't really have much to say about anything other than work. (These are people who were otherwise sparkling/enthusiastic personalities before starting in biglaw.) That, to my mind, is a decent reason to steer clear.

Absolutely agree here with the last paragraph. I had more confidence with $250,000 of debt coming in as a first year than I do as a 7th year with no debt and substantial savings and experience. The job is so much CYA all the time and being on all the time it just wipes you out and really curtails your confidence. I remember coming in as a first year wondering why the 34 year old 8th year that runs his own deals seemed so anxious and had so little confidence outside of conference calls. I realize now its because you just get paid to be owned for however long you can stand it. Even when I say no to projects and deals with partners I'm close with now, I literally just won't hear from them for months until they need me again on a deal, or they'll just find someone else to be their bitch and write me off entirely. It's pretty degrading work environment. I've had to try very hard not to become one of these people and now I'm at the point I just want out to do anything else.

[Anonymous User]

I am an incoming associate at a small-ish biglaw firm that seems fairly humane. I plan to do biglaw for 1-3 years and go in house at basically the first decent opportunity (I am willing to take a substantial paycut). I have no debt and a decent amount of savings due to an inheritance. I'm basically doing biglaw for: (1) the resume line and (2) a year or two of the biglaw pay to add to my savings/investments.

Is the mental pressure easier to deal with when you don't have loans to pay off and you're really just hoping to coast until a decent in house opportunity comes along? I'm hoping that I can just be an average associate and worry less about things like billables, especially as I get closer to becoming a realistic candidate for in house positions.

It’s no better even without the financial pressures. You can’t say “no thanks” when a partner emails you at 10 pm and asks you to turn it around by morning. If you do, you’ll get fired and won’t be able to get that in-house job.

These are pressures of people just trying to survive in biglaw. I don’t have many financial pressures keeping me in biglaw, but the fear of getting fired keeps me going until I’m senior enough to go in-house (hopefully one more year). I’ve contemplated quitting many times, but I know that I need to stick it out at this firm or a similar firm to get a nice in-house position.

Inheritance or not, I’m assuming you’re a person who would rather not get fired. If so, like many of us, you will deal with the bad times while practicing.

[Anonymous User]

Just want to hone in on the mental pressure being a huge factor, whether or not you are busy by big law standards, regular job standards, or whatever. As someone who jumped from Big Law to a top local as a mid-level, I can tell you that the pay cut was 100% worth the mental relief. It certainly took some time to reverse my conditioning, but I no longer panic at the sound of my phone after 6 pm or on a weekend. Even when it is work, unless it truly is an emergency, nothing can't wait until tomorrow/Monday. And when it can't wait, the amount of apologetic the partners and clients are for asking, and the amount of appreciative they are for the work, truly feels genuine and is a big motivational boost. Making the choice for me literally came down to calculating "Can I live the lifestyle I want with a paycut of X%?" As soon as the answer was "Yes", I left and have no intention of ever looking back.

I want to second this. Just before COVID, I made the jump (as a midlevel) from a top DC lit practice to government. Took a big pay cut, but the improvement to my mental health was 100% worth it. It is awful to wake up some mornings and think "hope I can juggle my work well enough this week that I'm doing most of it during normal work hours and don't have lots of late nights/weekends." The billable hour is what makes biglaw suck—though you might already be aware of that/be okay with it.

Also, this probably depends on the person, but I really found myself having moral qualms about a lot of the work I was doing/clients I was spending a lot of time representing. In my experience, you turn into a harder, colder person the longer you spend in biglaw.

Finally, I enjoy having interests and passions outside biglaw. Perhaps this is just my limited experience, but a large number of biglaw attorneys I know have a somewhat zombie-like affect outside the office, and don't really have much to say about anything other than work. (These are people who were otherwise sparkling/enthusiastic personalities before starting in biglaw.) That, to my mind, is a decent reason to steer clear.

I’d also say that biglaw isn’t necessarily the best way to make money in law, just the most risk adverse. I know solos who kill it. The average small firm attorney makes like 190k a year, not even controlled for geographic region.

If I had no debt, I’d do something like that sinner rather than later.

[2013]

Just want to hone in on the mental pressure being a huge factor, whether or not you are busy by big law standards, regular job standards, or whatever. As someone who jumped from Big Law to a top local as a mid-level, I can tell you that the pay cut was 100% worth the mental relief. It certainly took some time to reverse my conditioning, but I no longer panic at the sound of my phone after 6 pm or on a weekend. Even when it is work, unless it truly is an emergency, nothing can't wait until tomorrow/Monday. And when it can't wait, the amount of apologetic the partners and clients are for asking, and the amount of appreciative they are for the work, truly feels genuine and is a big motivational boost. Making the choice for me literally came down to calculating "Can I live the lifestyle I want with a paycut of X%?" As soon as the answer was "Yes", I left and have no intention of ever looking back.

I want to second this. Just before COVID, I made the jump (as a midlevel) from a top DC lit practice to government. Took a big pay cut, but the improvement to my mental health was 100% worth it. It is awful to wake up some mornings and think "hope I can juggle my work well enough this week that I'm doing most of it during normal work hours and don't have lots of late nights/weekends." The billable hour is what makes biglaw suck—though you might already be aware of that/be okay with it.

Also, this probably depends on the person, but I really found myself having moral qualms about a lot of the work I was doing/clients I was spending a lot of time representing. In my experience, you turn into a harder, colder person the longer you spend in biglaw.

Finally, I enjoy having interests and passions outside biglaw. Perhaps this is just my limited experience, but a large number of biglaw attorneys I know have a somewhat zombie-like affect outside the office, and don't really have much to say about anything other than work. (These are people who were otherwise sparkling/enthusiastic personalities before starting in biglaw.) That, to my mind, is a decent reason to steer clear.

I’d also say that biglaw isn’t necessarily the best way to make money in law, just the most risk adverse. I know solos who kill it. The average small firm attorney makes like 190k a year, not even controlled for geographic region.

If I had no debt, I’d do something like that sinner rather than later.

While I agree with the sentiment, I highly doubt the average small firm attorney makes 190k a year.

[Anonymous User]

I am an incoming associate at a small-ish biglaw firm that seems fairly humane. I plan to do biglaw for 1-3 years and go in house at basically the first decent opportunity (I am willing to take a substantial paycut). I have no debt and a decent amount of savings due to an inheritance. I'm basically doing biglaw for: (1) the resume line and (2) a year or two of the biglaw pay to add to my savings/investments.

Is the mental pressure easier to deal with when you don't have loans to pay off and you're really just hoping to coast until a decent in house opportunity comes along? I'm hoping that I can just be an average associate and worry less about things like billables, especially as I get closer to becoming a realistic candidate for in house positions.

It’s no better even without the financial pressures. You can’t say “no thanks” when a partner emails you at 10 pm and asks you to turn it around by morning. If you do, you’ll get fired and won’t be able to get that in-house job.

These are pressures of people just trying to survive in biglaw. I don’t have many financial pressures keeping me in biglaw, but the fear of getting fired keeps me going until I’m senior enough to go in-house (hopefully one more year). I’ve contemplated quitting many times, but I know that I need to stick it out at this firm or a similar firm to get a nice in-house position.

Inheritance or not, I’m assuming you’re a person who would rather not get fired. If so, like many of us, you will deal with the bad times while practicing.

Coming from V20 - you will not get fired for ignoring a partner to turn something around by next morning at 10pm. Said partner may give you a bad review in the future if he remembers, but its not a job ending thing. The only time you may have a problem, at least in corporate, is if you are on a live deal, in which case the 10pm email is generally expected anyway.

[Sporty1911]

So if this is how it is in big law, how is it that anyone sticks around long enough to become a senior associate, let alone partner? Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that every V100 partner/senior associate/counsel is like some masochist that enjoys putting themselves through this hell hole. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this thread makes it sound like big law literally ruins your life, but some people make an entire career out of it. Is there something unique about those people, or are the experiences shared in this thread just a self-selection of the worst of big law life?

[4LTsPointingNorth]

So if this is how it is in big law, how is it that anyone sticks around long enough to become a senior associate, let alone partner? Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that every V100 partner/senior associate/counsel is like some masochist that enjoys putting themselves through this hell hole. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this thread makes it sound like big law literally ruins your life, but some people make an entire career out of it. Is there something unique about those people, or are the experiences shared in this thread just a self-selection of the worst of big law life?

1) People can adapt to anything. Plus, as others have pointed out, Biglaw isn't always this bad, it just always has the potential to be this bad.

2) Some people also really like the feeling of being constantly "in demand" and of being the "expert" in a given field. In all seriousness, having clients willing to pay $1000+ an hour just to get your input on a given issue can be incredibly enticing if you like money, like issue spotting and problem solving and actually have a genuine intellectual interest in that field.

3) It's pretty common for Biglaw attorneys to spend money as if they will be compensated at Biglaw rates for their entire career, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy by necessity once those attorneys start families and begin to pay top dollar for rent/childcare/private school/etc.

[Anonymous User]

The successful seniors I know generally have no lives at all and sort of suck as people (no offense). And it doesn’t get better. The other day I had a call with a partner who told me HE’S been billing 300 hour months since March.

I’m a first year who’s hoping to get fired this fall for severance, and am 100% quitting early 2021. I think the best way to explain why people stick around is that they sort of get numb and lose perspective about what life should be like. People can get used to almost anything.

[Lesion of Doom]

I'm a first year and the dread has been the worst aspect of it for me. I actually prefer being busy to being slow, because being slow causes me to marinate in my own anxieties about performance, desirability as a junior (why doesn't this partner ever staff me?), hours, job security in the Covid era, etc.

I think the problem is partners as managers, not as managers of associates but of clients. They internalize client anxieties and spill them onto associates. If they could manage the client relationship, you wouldn't have so many fake fire drills -- fake fire drills that separate the wheat from the chaff in terms of which associates become favored and hit their hours.

You take their money, you play their game. But as others have said, the game isn't always bad. Getting staffed on an amendment or another slow jams-type deal can be pretty sweet. I just wish there were more of them.

[objctnyrhnr]

So if this is how it is in big law, how is it that anyone sticks around long enough to become a senior associate, let alone partner? Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that every V100 partner/senior associate/counsel is like some masochist that enjoys putting themselves through this hell hole. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this thread makes it sound like big law literally ruins your life, but some people make an entire career out of it. Is there something unique about those people, or are the experiences shared in this thread just a self-selection of the worst of big law life?

1) People can adapt to anything. Plus, as others have pointed out, Biglaw isn't always this bad, it just always has the potential to be this bad.

2) Some people also really like the feeling of being constantly "in demand" and of being the "expert" in a given field. In all seriousness, having clients willing to pay $1000+ an hour just to get your input on a given issue can be incredibly enticing if you like money, like issue spotting and problem solving and actually have a genuine intellectual interest in that field.

3) It's pretty common for Biglaw attorneys to spend money as if they will be compensated at Biglaw rates for their entire career, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy by necessity once those attorneys start families and begin to pay top dollar for rent/childcare/private school/etc.

I hate how I know I’m #2, and also trying hard not to be #3 but very gradually becoming that as well. I mean you have kids, need child care. It’s life. I won’t send to private school but like early to mid 30s family life (specifically before public school) can be really really expensive.

[Tbell247]

If a partner unexpectedly hits you up at 10pm asking for a turnaround by morning you can always hit them with the “sorry, I’ve been drinking.”

[Sackboy]

So if this is how it is in big law, how is it that anyone sticks around long enough to become a senior associate, let alone partner? Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that every V100 partner/senior associate/counsel is like some masochist that enjoys putting themselves through this hell hole. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this thread makes it sound like big law literally ruins your life, but some people make an entire career out of it. Is there something unique about those people, or are the experiences shared in this thread just a self-selection of the worst of big law life?

Money is a helluva drug.

Most of the complaints here likely exist at the entire V100, but they generally increase in intensity dramatically as you climb the vault rankings. While bad experiences exist at a place like Bryan Cave, the average experience is probably night and day from a firm like Davis Polk. Why exactly? Well, generally, the lower ranked firms are in chiller secondary/tertiary markets, and they have much lower PPP (Bryan Cave is $804,000 compared to $4,406,000 at Davis Polk). If the profit margin isn't big enough to account for the differential (they aren't in this case), then it means people are working more hours, on average, to achieve some of the astronomical PPP at the top of the Vault list. In many cases, significantly more hours. In other words, Davis Polk attorneys are just grinding far harder than Bryan Cave attorneys, on average. This sort of comparison carries pretty well from top to bottom of the vault list. Some lower V100 existences are truly reasonably humane.

As for counsel, those are different existences. Many of them are attorneys who have voluntarily taken themselves off the partner track. I know somebody who has been counsel for like 30 years. He just keeps hopping between V50-V20 firms. I'm sure the guy would love to have the equity money, but he much prefers the reasonable hours and the consistent $450-500k/yr. In those instances, counsel is pretty humane, and you're going to keep your job if you bill the hours. Some counsel positions, however, are basically a second-tier of non-equity partner, and the expectations are the same as in the previous paragraph. So few people exist in these positions and they are so dramatically different between firms, that it's hard to really talk about them substantively.

[Anonymous User]

I am an incoming associate at a small-ish biglaw firm that seems fairly humane. I plan to do biglaw for 1-3 years and go in house at basically the first decent opportunity (I am willing to take a substantial paycut). I have no debt and a decent amount of savings due to an inheritance. I'm basically doing biglaw for: (1) the resume line and (2) a year or two of the biglaw pay to add to my savings/investments.

Is the mental pressure easier to deal with when you don't have loans to pay off and you're really just hoping to coast until a decent in house opportunity comes along? I'm hoping that I can just be an average associate and worry less about things like billables, especially as I get closer to becoming a realistic candidate for in house positions.

It’s no better even without the financial pressures. You can’t say “no thanks” when a partner emails you at 10 pm and asks you to turn it around by morning. If you do, you’ll get fired and won’t be able to get that in-house job.

These are pressures of people just trying to survive in biglaw. I don’t have many financial pressures keeping me in biglaw, but the fear of getting fired keeps me going until I’m senior enough to go in-house (hopefully one more year). I’ve contemplated quitting many times, but I know that I need to stick it out at this firm or a similar firm to get a nice in-house position.

Inheritance or not, I’m assuming you’re a person who would rather not get fired. If so, like many of us, you will deal with the bad times while practicing.

Coming from V20 - you will not get fired for ignoring a partner to turn something around by next morning at 10pm. Said partner may give you a bad review in the future if he remembers, but its not a job ending thing. The only time you may have a problem, at least in corporate, is if you are on a live deal, in which case the 10pm email is generally expected anyway.

I’m the quoted anon. I didn’t mean they’d get fired on the spot, but there would be almost no chance they lasted past 1 to one and a half years if they did that, which is not long enough to get that in-house role.

[Anonymous User]

Just want to hone in on the mental pressure being a huge factor, whether or not you are busy by big law standards, regular job standards, or whatever. As someone who jumped from Big Law to a top local as a mid-level, I can tell you that the pay cut was 100% worth the mental relief. It certainly took some time to reverse my conditioning, but I no longer panic at the sound of my phone after 6 pm or on a weekend. Even when it is work, unless it truly is an emergency, nothing can't wait until tomorrow/Monday. And when it can't wait, the amount of apologetic the partners and clients are for asking, and the amount of appreciative they are for the work, truly feels genuine and is a big motivational boost. Making the choice for me literally came down to calculating "Can I live the lifestyle I want with a paycut of X%?" As soon as the answer was "Yes", I left and have no intention of ever looking back.

I want to second this. Just before COVID, I made the jump (as a midlevel) from a top DC lit practice to government. Took a big pay cut, but the improvement to my mental health was 100% worth it. It is awful to wake up some mornings and think "hope I can juggle my work well enough this week that I'm doing most of it during normal work hours and don't have lots of late nights/weekends." The billable hour is what makes biglaw suck—though you might already be aware of that/be okay with it.

Also, this probably depends on the person, but I really found myself having moral qualms about a lot of the work I was doing/clients I was spending a lot of time representing. In my experience, you turn into a harder, colder person the longer you spend in biglaw.

Finally, I enjoy having interests and passions outside biglaw. Perhaps this is just my limited experience, but a large number of biglaw attorneys I know have a somewhat zombie-like affect outside the office, and don't really have much to say about anything other than work. (These are people who were otherwise sparkling/enthusiastic personalities before starting in biglaw.) That, to my mind, is a decent reason to steer clear.

I’d also say that biglaw isn’t necessarily the best way to make money in law, just the most risk adverse. I know solos who kill it. The average small firm attorney makes like 190k a year, not even controlled for geographic region.

If I had no debt, I’d do something like that sinner rather than later.

While I agree with the sentiment, I highly doubt the average small firm attorney makes 190k a year.

You have to remember the significant compression associates face in many small firms compared to partner comp. For example, at my firm (about 30 people) associates max out at $250k, but partners average 800-900k. So the 190k average is almost certainly a factor of many situations like this where the jump for partners is massive.

[PMan99]

So if this is how it is in big law, how is it that anyone sticks around long enough to become a senior associate, let alone partner? Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that every V100 partner/senior associate/counsel is like some masochist that enjoys putting themselves through this hell hole. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this thread makes it sound like big law literally ruins your life, but some people make an entire career out of it. Is there something unique about those people, or are the experiences shared in this thread just a self-selection of the worst of big law life?

Trying to survive until you're a senior is far different than gunning for, and making partner. A competent attorney with a dash of luck and perhaps a willingness to lateral can make it until years 5 or 6 without killing themselves too much. There's still the tough nights and weekends and some nasty people to work for along the way, and definitely some cancelled plans and unfortunate moments, but it isn't like the ramp up to partner. Generally speaking most firms are going to want to see a few years of significant billables (like 2400+, though many hoping for promotion do 2600+ or more) in the run up to partnership. A lot of people treat it as an all-out dash to work as much as possible, curry as much favor with the good partners, and gun as hard as possible. I do not think it is possible to have any semblance of work life balance in this phase, or, for that matter, the first few years of junior partnership while you're still fighting to establish yourself.

Older partners who have made a career out of it aren't really good guides because they generally came up 20+ years ago when things were significantly easier for a number of reasons (lower hours, less technology, higher promotion rate, etc.) and they have enough equity to coast significantly more as long as they bring in business to feed others.

[Anonymous User]

This is highly firm and region specific and obviously partner specific.

At my first firm in a “laid back” secondary market, I made slightly below market, but I worked 9-5:30, rarely had to answer urgent emails after 5:30, worked on average one weekend a month, and billed 1600 with no negative repercussions. There was an associate who billed 2200 hours and my partner was “concerned” that the associate would burn out and leave. The firm’s billable expectation was 1850 for a bonus, but people moved up in class standing if they had good reviews.

My new firm is in a major city NY/Chicago/DC and it’s brutal, especially after my first experience. I’m expected to be on call at all times and I’m regularly required to work saturdays/Sundays. I was usually in the office until 8 (pre-Covid)and then had to work with a partner who liked to work at night from 10-12, sometimes later. It’s gotten slightly better with the slowdown, but I’m still on pace for 2100-2200 hours. Also, one partner criticized me for not carrying my weight, so I’m clearly expected to bill a ton.

Would you be willing to share which firm your first firm was? That sounds like a really nice set up!

[Anonymous User]

Is there a way to suss out which Big Law firm's L&E departments in markets like San Francisco or Silicon Valley are on the "good side" of things as opposed to "you're fired or I will remember you come review time for not answering an email at 10pm"?

It almost seems like falling out of the Vault 100 rankings might mean a more "chill" environment. Do people recommend certain Amlaw 200 or firms outside of Vault 100 that would be good in general and any insight for L&E?

I currently work at an Amlaw 200 and I bill 2,200 hours, but I keep a fairly normal schedule of 9am to 6pm with occasionally logging on at night to log an hour or here two. However, that is all because I want to stay on top of my work as opposed to having a Partner expect a response at 10pm. Any Amlaw 200 or Big Law firms that would be somewhat close to this lifestyle?

[Anonymous User]

So if this is how it is in big law, how is it that anyone sticks around long enough to become a senior associate, let alone partner? Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that every V100 partner/senior associate/counsel is like some masochist that enjoys putting themselves through this hell hole. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this thread makes it sound like big law literally ruins your life, but some people make an entire career out of it. Is there something unique about those people, or are the experiences shared in this thread just a self-selection of the worst of big law life?

Some people actually like the work. I know a few really "talented" senior associates and counsel and they are seriously always working. They can be stressed out and feel like they don't have much free time, but if they like the work and they're making $250,000+, they think its worth it to be able to send their kids to private schools and not ever worry about money. I have plenty of friends that are 6-8th years on partner track. They don't need to go home and read a book, or cook a meal often, or just turn off their brains and be out of pocket, they are high achievers that generally don't care about that kind of stuff. However, even a few times I've been in situations with partners and they've said "I can't believe this is my life" or "I can't believe I have ten more years of this." It's really not an enjoyable career path for the vast majority of people I've come across.

I'm a 7th year associate that has gotten great reviews and I've pretty much despised my entire career. Honestly no idea how I've managed to do that. I understand being good enough to just get by, but I'm talking top of class bonuses for off-market firms and great reviews at market firms. I think I got by through switching firms a few times, going from v10 to v100s, and switching practice areas so I never had that kind of senior level responsibility until recently. I don't think biglaw ruins your life literally, but I really wish I found something else faster and didn't take out debt to do this kind of work.

[Anonymous User]

This is highly firm and region specific and obviously partner specific.

At my first firm in a “laid back” secondary market, I made slightly below market, but I worked 9-5:30, rarely had to answer urgent emails after 5:30, worked on average one weekend a month, and billed 1600 with no negative repercussions. There was an associate who billed 2200 hours and my partner was “concerned” that the associate would burn out and leave. The firm’s billable expectation was 1850 for a bonus, but people moved up in class standing if they had good reviews.

My new firm is in a major city NY/Chicago/DC and it’s brutal, especially after my first experience. I’m expected to be on call at all times and I’m regularly required to work saturdays/Sundays. I was usually in the office until 8 (pre-Covid)and then had to work with a partner who liked to work at night from 10-12, sometimes later. It’s gotten slightly better with the slowdown, but I’m still on pace for 2100-2200 hours. Also, one partner criticized me for not carrying my weight, so I’m clearly expected to bill a ton.

Would you be willing to share which firm your first firm was? That sounds like a really nice set up!

I can’t share the firm without outing myself, and this wasn’t the case for everyone at the firm, but there are a handful of firms that are generally similar (based on my conversations with classmates). This depends on practice, though. You’d still be busy in M&A even at these firms.

Firms like Polsinelli, Nelson Mullins, Akerman, Faegre — AmLaw 100 firms that aren’t vault firms but still pay well ($145-$190 starting depending on market)— are generally pretty chill from my understanding.

[Anonymous User]

Re: partner email at 10 pm... what if you’re asleep? Do y’all set certain alert tones for partners so that if something is truly important, you’ll wake up to read it?

[Anonymous User]

So if this is how it is in big law, how is it that anyone sticks around long enough to become a senior associate, let alone partner? Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that every V100 partner/senior associate/counsel is like some masochist that enjoys putting themselves through this hell hole. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this thread makes it sound like big law literally ruins your life, but some people make an entire career out of it. Is there something unique about those people, or are the experiences shared in this thread just a self-selection of the worst of big law life?

Some people actually like the work. I know a few really "talented" senior associates and counsel and they are seriously always working. They can be stressed out and feel like they don't have much free time, but if they like the work and they're making $250,000+, they think its worth it to be able to send their kids to private schools and not ever worry about money. I have plenty of friends that are 6-8th years on partner track. They don't need to go home and read a book, or cook a meal often, or just turn off their brains and be out of pocket, they are high achievers that generally don't care about that kind of stuff. However, even a few times I've been in situations with partners and they've said "I can't believe this is my life" or "I can't believe I have ten more years of this." It's really not an enjoyable career path for the vast majority of people I've come across.

I'm a 7th year associate that has gotten great reviews and I've pretty much despised my entire career. Honestly no idea how I've managed to do that. I understand being good enough to just get by, but I'm talking top of class bonuses for off-market firms and great reviews at market firms. I think I got by through switching firms a few times, going from v10 to v100s, and switching practice areas so I never had that kind of senior level responsibility until recently. I don't think biglaw ruins your life literally, but I really wish I found something else faster and didn't take out debt to do this kind of work.

I'm in a similar boat. I do think to truly succeed as a biglaw partner (and this isn't unique to biglaw), you have to give priority to your job in nearly every scenario. That comes at the expense of family time, friends time, hobby time, and the list goes on. Many are okay with that choice (and I don't mean to suggest it's objectively the wrong choice), but many others, who may be just as capable of doing the same job at the same level, aren't willing to make those same sacrifices.

[Anonymous User]

So if this is how it is in big law, how is it that anyone sticks around long enough to become a senior associate, let alone partner? Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that every V100 partner/senior associate/counsel is like some masochist that enjoys putting themselves through this hell hole. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this thread makes it sound like big law literally ruins your life, but some people make an entire career out of it. Is there something unique about those people, or are the experiences shared in this thread just a self-selection of the worst of big law life?

Some people actually like the work. I know a few really "talented" senior associates and counsel and they are seriously always working. They can be stressed out and feel like they don't have much free time, but if they like the work and they're making $250,000+, they think its worth it to be able to send their kids to private schools and not ever worry about money. I have plenty of friends that are 6-8th years on partner track. They don't need to go home and read a book, or cook a meal often, or just turn off their brains and be out of pocket, they are high achievers that generally don't care about that kind of stuff. However, even a few times I've been in situations with partners and they've said "I can't believe this is my life" or "I can't believe I have ten more years of this." It's really not an enjoyable career path for the vast majority of people I've come across.

I'm a 7th year associate that has gotten great reviews and I've pretty much despised my entire career. Honestly no idea how I've managed to do that. I understand being good enough to just get by, but I'm talking top of class bonuses for off-market firms and great reviews at market firms. I think I got by through switching firms a few times, going from v10 to v100s, and switching practice areas so I never had that kind of senior level responsibility until recently. I don't think biglaw ruins your life literally, but I really wish I found something else faster and didn't take out debt to do this kind of work.

I'm in a similar boat. I do think to truly succeed as a biglaw partner (and this isn't unique to biglaw), you have to give priority to your job in nearly every scenario. That comes at the expense of family time, friends time, hobby time, and the list goes on. Many are okay with that choice (and I don't mean to suggest it's objectively the wrong choice), but many others, who may be just as capable of doing the same job at the same level, aren't willing to make those same sacrifices.

Before my 1L SA, I wanted to be a powerful career woman/man and, while I probably wouldn't make partner, I wanted to work as hard as I could to try to be a "star" associate. Once I saw the sacrifices that it takes to truly be great at this job, I realized that biglaw was not for me long-term. I will never love my job enough to sacrifice basically everything else in order to succeed at it.

[nealric]

Re: partner email at 10 pm... what if you’re asleep? Do y’all set certain alert tones for partners so that if something is truly important, you’ll wake up to read it?

Former biglaw associate: I don't think I ever went to bed before 11 in biglaw. Especially in NYC, it's a late to bed late to rise culture. Some partners would occasionally email in the middle of the night, but there was no expectation of an immediate reply at 3AM unless you were in total deal crunch time (in which case you were probably in the office).

To answer the OP: how bad it is can really run the gambit in terms of how "hop to" you need to be and how crushing the hours are. There are biglaw jobs that are a fairly consistent 50 hours a week and there are biglaw jobs where you are getting hammered with 100 hour weeks regularly. There are partners that expect an "aye aye sir" within 5 minutes of any email, and there are partners that are fairly chill. It's very difficult to know in advance which situation you will be in. However, the higher-strung biglaw situation is more likely in practices like M&A, in NYC, and at higher Vault ranked firms. It is less likely in knowledge-based niche practices like Benefits/ERISA, secondary markets, and lower ranked firms. However, that doesn't mean you can't get crushed by work and berated by a tyrant at some midwestern midlaw firm either.

Also, everyone has a different breaking point. I liken it to running a race. Some people can't fathom running a 5k, some go for the marathon but hit a wall at mile 18. Others finish the marathon gritting their teeth. Others are born ultramarathoners. Likewise, everyone has their tolerance level for biglaw. Some need to get out immediately, others hit their breaking point as a mid/senior associate, and others thrive as partners. It may be hard to know where you fit in until you do it.

[Anonymous User]

Re: how do people survive and make partner given the demands of the job.

A huge part of what I have seen, at least on the lit side, is that senior associates gunning for partner and partners are seriously competitive people. More so then I would have guessed. These people fucking love winning, including winning minor (frankly bullshit) points just to win. I've talked to seniors who celebrated wins over arguments they had opposing counsel, or even third party counsel, "just of fun."

I'm at a boutique rather than biglaw, but same (or more) hours/pay/expectations/similar personalities so I think applies broadly. I think that adrenaline rush from winning pushes people through the thorniest parts of the job. But you really need to be able to survive on it to some degree.

[Anonymous User]

Re: partner email at 10 pm... what if you’re asleep? Do y’all set certain alert tones for partners so that if something is truly important, you’ll wake up to read it?

Former biglaw associate: I don't think I ever went to bed before 11 in biglaw. Especially in NYC, it's a late to bed late to rise culture. Some partners would occasionally email in the middle of the night, but there was no expectation of an immediate reply at 3AM unless you were in total deal crunch time (in which case you were probably in the office).

To answer the OP: how bad it is can really run the gambit in terms of how "hop to" you need to be and how crushing the hours are. There are biglaw jobs that are a fairly consistent 50 hours a week and there are biglaw jobs where you are getting hammered with 100 hour weeks regularly. There are partners that expect an "aye aye sir" within 5 minutes of any email, and there are partners that are fairly chill. It's very difficult to know in advance which situation you will be in. However, the higher-strung biglaw situation is more likely in practices like M&A, in NYC, and at higher valut ranked firms. It is less likely in knowledge-based niche practices like Benefits/ERISA, secondary markets, and lower ranked firms. However, that doesn't mean you can't get crushed by work and berated by a tyrant at some midwestern midlaw firm either.

Also, everyone has a different breaking point. I liken it to running a race. Some people can't fathom running a 5k, some go for the marathon but hit a wall at mile 18. Others finish the marathon gritting their teeth. Others are born ultramarathoners. Likewise, everyone has their tolerance level for biglaw. Some need to get out immediately, others hit their breaking point as a mid/senior associate, and others thrive as partners. It may be hard to know where you fit in until you do it.

This is a good point. I'm a senior ERISA associate at a big L&E firm in a secondary market.

I like to think I'm fairly good at my job because I'm in demand (though it could just be out of necessity). I hit 2200+ hours last year and generally have been 2050+ the 3 years before that. Although I do work a lot, my workload is steady and predictable. It's one thing to bill 45+ on a consistent basis each week compared to working 100 hour weeks every few weeks. It still feels like a grind at times, but I usually try to work longer days and am able to avoid working nearly all weekends. We might get pulled in on ERISA/exec comp issues on a deal every once in a while, but otherwise my group has very little in the way of "it's 10pm, I need this done ASAP."

Now, my pay is probably 15% lower than the general practice firms in the area, but the quality of life generally is pretty good - I take vacation, I see my kids, go to bed at 9pm if I'm tired, etc. - so I see it as a fair tradeoff.

If someone is losing their sanity in the NYC market, a shift to a lower ranked firm + secondary market seems like the best way to claw some of that back (as long as the paycut isn't too bad).