Big4 Forum

[Anonymous User]

With respect to job security, is it fair to analogize the Big4 (especially in NYC) to the v4 (or similar) biglaw firms to the extent that even in economic downturns (like now) neither the Big4 nor v4 biglaw firms are laying off current associates or rescinding outstanding offers for associates to join? Like the v4, Big4 (NYC) is always busy, right?

[dabigchina]

It's like a v5 in that they are financially stable and won't completely collapse.

But, because they have so many people, employees and partners are generally more expendable. They had layoffs last time around, and if things stay bad, they will again.

[nealric]

Regarding partnership prospects, keep in mind that Big4 are more leveraged than Biglaw tax. What that means is the ratio of people who start at the firm to the ones who go on to make partner is even more skewed against partnership.

"Director" is probably equivalent to "of counsel" but be aware you can get stuck at senior manager for a long time. But other posters are right in that there is a very strong in-house pipeline. Some of that is because you physically go to clients on a regular basis and really get to know people on the client side, unlike biglaw where you are usually chained to your desk and most client interaction happens at the partner level. Most folks jump in house once they hit manager or senior manager (essentially the point that you become marketable and have had time to develop client connections). Big4 has less of an up or out mentality than Biglaw does, and will usually welcome you back if you decide to return after time in-house.

As a final note, I'm uncertain how things would shake out for a non-CPA JD/LLM in terms of in-house opportunities. There are numerically lot more CPA positions in corporate tax departments than there are JD positions. It's also more rare for tax legal to interact significantly with less senior Big 4 folks. While someone on the compliance side might regularly interact with a manager-level person for a return review, in a planning project, I'd only have significant interaction with the partners.

[dabigchina]

Agree re: exit ops. I think a JD/LLM from big4 will have a slight edge if only because they are closer to the numbers, which is more valuable for an in house department. Note, that this is probably less applicable to WNT and M&A.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone here work in transfer pricing? If so, is transfer pricing its own group, or is it a subgroup of the international tax group?

[hangtime813]

Does anyone here work in transfer pricing? If so, is transfer pricing its own group, or is it a subgroup of the international tax group?

At Deloitte, Transfer Pricing is its own group.

[nealric]

Does anyone here work in transfer pricing? If so, is transfer pricing its own group, or is it a subgroup of the international tax group?

The thing with transfer pricing is that it's more economic analysis than law. The experience won't translate well outside of transfer pricing. I'd probably avoid it unless I were an economist by training or had no other options.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone here work in transfer pricing? If so, is transfer pricing its own group, or is it a subgroup of the international tax group?

The thing with transfer pricing is that it's more economic analysis than law. The experience won't translate well outside of transfer pricing. I'd probably avoid it unless I were an economist by training or had no other options.

Thanks. A v30 law firm I follow is holding a webcast on transfer pricing issues for CLE credits so I was wondering if it'd have any useful overlap with international tax.

[nealric]

Does anyone here work in transfer pricing? If so, is transfer pricing its own group, or is it a subgroup of the international tax group?

The thing with transfer pricing is that it's more economic analysis than law. The experience won't translate well outside of transfer pricing. I'd probably avoid it unless I were an economist by training or had no other options.

Thanks. A v30 law firm I follow is holding a webcast on transfer pricing issues for CLE credits so I was wondering if it'd have any useful overlap with international tax.

It’s within the umbrella of international, it’s just that transfer pricing issues are usually their own thing, so you likely won’t learn much technical tax in a transfer pricing group.

[Anonymous User]

Have incoming tax associates in NYC received start dates yet? If so, when are you starting? month.

[Anonymous User]

Have incoming tax associates in NYC received start dates yet? If so, when are you starting? month.

Yes, October 22

[Anonymous User]

Have incoming tax associates in NYC received start dates yet? If so, when are you starting? month.

Yes, October 22

Not so bad. Better than January. Which firm? KPMG hasn't reported start dates yet.

[Anonymous User]

Have incoming tax associates in NYC received start dates yet? If so, when are you starting? month.

Yes, October 22

Not so bad. Better than January. Which firm? KPMG hasn't reported start dates yet.

Definitely better than January! The firm is PwC.

[Anonymous User]

Jumping in here as a JD-only with an interview at a Big4 M&A (non-NYC or WNT). A few questions:

How common is it for a Big4 associate to get their LLM along the way? Would the firm pay for it (wholly or partially)? Would you be expected to get the degree part-time or would you be allowed to work part-time?

What's the paygap between JD/LLM and JD only?

What's the day-to-day like in M&A? Also, I've seen people talking about exit options, and M&A seems to be one of the better groups for that, but does this hold for non-NYC/WNT offices? The office I'm interviewing with is just outside DC.

What should I expect in the interview? Will there be technical questions?

[Anonymous User]

Jumping in here as a JD-only with an interview at a Big4 M&A (non-NYC or WNT). A few questions:

How common is it for a Big4 associate to get their LLM along the way? Would the firm pay for it (wholly or partially)? Would you be expected to get the degree part-time or would you be allowed to work part-time?

I know of several firms that pay for senior associates to get their LLM. My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the firm pays for your LLM on a part time basis and requires a certain grade in each class for reimbursement. You would be working full time and taking classes part time. My big4 in NYC is very accommodating during final exam time as long as it's not busy season.

What's the paygap between JD/LLM and JD only?

My offer (NYC) was $125,000 plus $10,000 LLM bonus. My coworker (JD from CCN, no LLM) received $100,000 no signing bonus.

What's the day-to-day like in M&A? Also, I've seen people talking about exit options, and M&A seems to be one of the better groups for that, but does this hold for non-NYC/WNT offices? The office I'm interviewing with is just outside DC.

I don't know about M&A but if by "just outside DC" you mean Tyson's Corner, my Big4's Tyson's Corner ITS group is very busy.

What should I expect in the interview? Will there be technical questions?

My interview was very easy. No technical questions at all. They were looking for compelling answers to why Big4 over BigLaw and why tax.

[Anonymous User]

Jumping in here as a JD-only with an interview at a Big4 M&A (non-NYC or WNT). A few questions:

How common is it for a Big4 associate to get their LLM along the way? Would the firm pay for it (wholly or partially)? Would you be expected to get the degree part-time or would you be allowed to work part-time?

What's the paygap between JD/LLM and JD only?

What's the day-to-day like in M&A? Also, I've seen people talking about exit options, and M&A seems to be one of the better groups for that, but does this hold for non-NYC/WNT offices? The office I'm interviewing with is just outside DC.

What should I expect in the interview? Will there be technical questions?

Most Big4 will pay for part, but generally not all of an LLM. I'd be shocked if they allow anyone to work part-time to pursue an LLM, but are generally supportive in allowing scheduling flexibility.

LLM trends at a $10-$15k per year (perhaps more in NYC) at the start; that will increase or decrease based on performance. It is definitely not a lock-step pay and performance can increase salary more quickly.

Day to day for an associate is a lot of work on diligence reports, structure decks, and models on for buy-side clients (often PE). In non-NYC offices, there's more variation in the work and may include more general consulting work/international tax.

Exit options will somewhat depend on geographic flexibility - the more funds and large corporations that are around the area you are interested in, the better the ops. The DC area should be relatively strong (although not what the tri-state area provides).

[Anonymous User]

Regarding partnership prospects, keep in mind that Big4 are more leveraged than Biglaw tax. What that means is the ratio of people who start at the firm to the ones who go on to make partner is even more skewed against partnership.

"Director" is probably equivalent to "of counsel" but be aware you can get stuck at senior manager for a long time. But other posters are right in that there is a very strong in-house pipeline. Some of that is because you physically go to clients on a regular basis and really get to know people on the client side, unlike biglaw where you are usually chained to your desk and most client interaction happens at the partner level. Most folks jump in house once they hit manager or senior manager (essentially the point that you become marketable and have had time to develop client connections). Big4 has less of an up or out mentality than Biglaw does, and will usually welcome you back if you decide to return after time in-house.

As a final note, I'm uncertain how things would shake out for a non-CPA JD/LLM in terms of in-house opportunities. There are numerically lot more CPA positions in corporate tax departments than there are JD positions. It's also more rare for tax legal to interact significantly with less senior Big 4 folks. While someone on the compliance side might regularly interact with a manager-level person for a return review, in a planning project, I'd only have significant interaction with the partners.

The final note is interesting to me. I'm a relatively early in the senior manager years (M&A, but also do a fair amount of international) and I'm often the point person with the client and have very regular client contact. That said, I will say there's an incredible variation in how Big4 M&A/Int'l groups operate. My partners tend to stay in the background.

There is some level of trust component I suppose - on the compliance side there are client level managers; generally on the planning side its Directors/VP level.

[champloo]

Anyone have any info regarding back office positions (i.e. the firm is the only client) at the big4? Don't have any interest or experience in tax.

[CanadianWolf]

An anonymous poster asked: "How common is it for a Big4 associate to get their LLM along the way ?"

Would be interesting to read the response of the anonymous Senior Manager poster who responded above.

I would ask an additional question: How common is it for a non-LLM (tax)/non-CPA background to be hired by a Big 4 directly out of law school ?

[CanadianWolf]

I do realize that hiring JD only (non-LLM) varies by location. In some markets, an LLM is required, while in other markets including NYC, it seems fairly common to hire those with just a JD.

[notinbiglaw]

When I was doing my tax LLM at NYU, there were quite a few guys who either had experience or working at Big 4 tax.

[Anonymous User]

Got dinged from KPMG yesterday, in case anyone is tracking this stuff right now. All good for me since I already have an offer elsewhere

[Anonymous User]

Got dinged from KPMG yesterday, in case anyone is tracking this stuff right now. All good for me since I already have an offer elsewhere

Which office?

[Anonymous User]

JD-only here, was wondering how common it is for JD-onlys at Big4 to be in major cities like NYC or LA? Aren’t these markets super competitive and don’t Big4’s in NYC or LA prefer LLM’s over JD’s?

[Anonymous User]

JD-only here, was wondering how common it is for JD-onlys at Big4 to be in major cities like NYC or LA? Aren’t these markets super competitive and don’t Big4’s in NYC or LA prefer LLM’s over JD’s?

Anon b/c I was a former JD only at a big4 in a major market--it is not uncommon from my experience but I was definitely in the minority. I would say while over half of the attorneys in my group all had LLMs, about 1/4 - 1/3 were JD only (think SF/SV/LA/NYC).