The existential meaninglessness of the corporate/M&A biglaw practice Forum

[Iowahawk]

It feels like a lot of these problems would be rectified by moving to a smaller market. I'm from Iowa (see username) and the M&A lawyers I talk to there seem to enjoy their work repping local employers, family businesses, etc. More meaningful clients, quicker advancement to working directly with them, and a larger share of responsibility for an individual attorney. And even non-lawyers in Iowa definitely remember e.g. David Belin, a legendary M&A lawyer who died in 1999 (he even has a Wikipedia page). But I'm a humble biglaw litigator so maybe I'm romanticizing it.

[64Fl]

It feels like a lot of these problems would be rectified by moving to a smaller market. I'm from Iowa (see username) and the M&A lawyers I talk to there seem to enjoy their work repping local employers, family businesses, etc. More meaningful clients, quicker advancement to working directly with them, and a larger share of responsibility for an individual attorney. And even non-lawyers in Iowa definitely remember e.g. David Belin, a legendary M&A lawyer who died in 1999 (he even has a Wikipedia page). But I'm a humble biglaw litigator so maybe I'm romanticizing it.

I'm also from Iowa, and this is the same sense that I get. I'm also a biglaw lawyer, so maybe +1 on the romanticization too. I'd love to move back, but boy is the pay cut steep.

[dabigchina]

I think what you're missing in M&A (especially PE) is the relationship with your clients. As you get more senior and develop relationships with your clients such that they become friends, you become the person called in to solve your friends' problems, help them look good, and that aspect can be really gratifying. Also at the senior level the job becomes more about business development and relationship managing than true deal work, which if you're a social person is also a pretty fun aspect to the job.

I think it's also ironic that you point to porn as a "fun" career that's acceptable when plenty of people would call that even more exploitative than biglaw, so perhaps that can serve as a reminder that it's all a matter of perspective...

Yea, many partners I work with are friends with their clients. They get the benefit of getting calls at 6PM on Friday or urgent emails on vacation to "solve their problems" and "help them look good". Then they ask me to come to basketball games with them so I can listen to them talk about their kids private schools or how millennials are socialists. Look, I get it, in this country, money rules, and its ultimately better to be the bitch of a rich person or corporation, than be the guy stocking shelves at Walmart, but pretending that these relationships really mean anything,or that this kind of life is gratifying is pretty delusional. I've seen partners drop dead of a heart attack at like 51. They get a big firm wide email talking about them and then funeral details, then no one talks about them again. How gratifying, I'm sure the years and years of late nights were worth it.

Most of my partners aren't bad people, but they weren't smart enough to do something else when they had the chance and locked themselves into a life they find sort of miserable. If anything I feel bad for them. At least we're young enough to GTFO while we can.

Eh, my S/O's dad was a partner at a V10, just retired. He worked late on weekdays and put in time on weekends, but was like, absolutely present in the kids' lives. Family is really close and, to put it bluntly, rich as fuck. Some people find ways to make it work.

Far as I can tell, my dad worked like, 90% as hard as a middle manager at F500 for 1/10 the money. And he liked his job way than less my S/O's dad liked his.

Just a data point, not saying either of these is super representative. My bias is definitely towards taking the sure thing (making a lot of money) vs the less-sure thing (being "fulfilled" in some metaphysical sense somewhere else making a lot less). That said, I get that the horrible hours, at some places, are also the "sure thing."

It's worth noting that, by all accounts, corporate practice has gotten more challenging in the last 20 years. Your in laws came of age at a time when practice was easier/sustainable.

It's also worth noting that the last 10% of work is what really breaks you. Hour 1 and hour 80 of the week are not equally painful.

[Anonymous User]

I think what you're missing in M&A (especially PE) is the relationship with your clients. As you get more senior and develop relationships with your clients such that they become friends, you become the person called in to solve your friends' problems, help them look good, and that aspect can be really gratifying. Also at the senior level the job becomes more about business development and relationship managing than true deal work, which if you're a social person is also a pretty fun aspect to the job.

I think it's also ironic that you point to porn as a "fun" career that's acceptable when plenty of people would call that even more exploitative than biglaw, so perhaps that can serve as a reminder that it's all a matter of perspective...

Yea, many partners I work with are friends with their clients. They get the benefit of getting calls at 6PM on Friday or urgent emails on vacation to "solve their problems" and "help them look good". Then they ask me to come to basketball games with them so I can listen to them talk about their kids private schools or how millennials are socialists. Look, I get it, in this country, money rules, and its ultimately better to be the bitch of a rich person or corporation, than be the guy stocking shelves at Walmart, but pretending that these relationships really mean anything,or that this kind of life is gratifying is pretty delusional. I've seen partners drop dead of a heart attack at like 51. They get a big firm wide email talking about them and then funeral details, then no one talks about them again. How gratifying, I'm sure the years and years of late nights were worth it.

Most of my partners aren't bad people, but they weren't smart enough to do something else when they had the chance and locked themselves into a life they find sort of miserable. If anything I feel bad for them. At least we're young enough to GTFO while we can.

Eh, my S/O's dad was a partner at a V10, just retired. He worked late on weekdays and put in time on weekends, but was like, absolutely present in the kids' lives. Family is really close and, to put it bluntly, rich as fuck. Some people find ways to make it work.

Far as I can tell, my dad worked like, 90% as hard as a middle manager at F500 for 1/10 the money. And he liked his job way than less my S/O's dad liked his.

Just a data point, not saying either of these is super representative. My bias is definitely towards taking the sure thing (making a lot of money) vs the less-sure thing (being "fulfilled" in some metaphysical sense somewhere else making a lot less). That said, I get that the horrible hours, at some places, are also the "sure thing."

I mean, its definitely not super representative, and you said above that he liked his job. I've worked at 3 big law firms and those at the top firm definitely seem happier, but I think it's because they have to like the work to get to that level. I don't find many people that enjoy doing big law work, so that alone is pretty "special". If I loved my job and was paid 3 million to do it, then I would dam well make it work. Hell, if I liked my job and made $150K i'd make it work. I just don't think many people like the work they do. Also, i'm sure to him and his kids and wife it was enough time to be present, but that is really personal. For me, being on vacation or going on weekend trips and starring at my phone to look for emails is not being present. Working late nights and not being able to sit besides my wife and talk or read books because I'm either at the office or working in my home office is not being present. Canceling plans on a Saturday because a client wants to have a call is not being present. Again, I see plenty of people that make it work, but I don't think I'd be happy and I feel most normal people wouldn't either.

[nixy]

In terms of being present - I think being rich as fuck helps, too, because you can pay people to do a lot of stuff, so that when you're not working you're really present, and not caught up in doing laundry/cleaning the garage/buying groceries (of course doing these things with your family is being present, too, but battling Sat a.m. crowds at the grocery store with your kids vs. going to a baseball game or something? kinda different).

[Betharl]

Agree with the "existential" meaninglessness, but the work is often also quite literally meaningless. It seems like a pretty big chunk of what lawyers argue about/markup etc. on deals is completely theoretical, or form over substance, etc. Then you have a smaller chunk that MIGHT actually matter, but really probably won't, it's just risk allocation. Typically though, even that stuff is insignificant. Unexpected indemnification claims are rare, and when you have one, it's not like, thank god we negotiated so hard on those 3 words in 4.20(b)(ii) or something, it's usually covered like 4 different ways in the agreement, you submit to the RWI, and they're like, yeah, cool, and pay the claim. There is a very small amount of what the lawyers touch that is actually important/goes to the economics of the deal, but on that stuff, we're basically 100% taking direction from the client.

I envy the people who have tricked themselves into thinking they are adding value, helping the client, doing something important, etc., and arent simply a necessary evil to getting the deal done.

[notinbiglaw]

In terms of being present - I think being rich as fuck helps, too, because you can pay people to do a lot of stuff, so that when you're not working you're really present, and not caught up in doing laundry/cleaning the garage/buying groceries (of course doing these things with your family is being present, too, but battling Sat a.m. crowds at the grocery store with your kids vs. going to a baseball game or something? kinda different).

Reminds me of this thread: Biglaw w kids - any positive stories??
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=303505

[Neff]

Anyone else finding themselves looking forward to the plague and a massive recession? I know I am not an indentured servant and can quit anytime, but a part of me is perversely looking forward to having the decision to quit made for me. I would be delighted to cop that $70K severance and go fishing.

[Anonymous User]

Do first years get severance?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Anyone else finding themselves looking forward to the plague and a massive recession? I know I am not an indentured servant and can quit anytime, but a part of me is perversely looking forward to having the decision to quit made for me. I would be delighted to cop that $70K severance and go fishing.

I would love to get fired.

[Neff]

Do first years get severance?

Barring something really unusual, yes. When Latham laid off hundreds, everyone got six months' severance. Default is three months.

[Clytemnestra3]

I'll chime in. I agree with the OP in that I also feel corporate law is meaningless. I efficiently manage a process, but that process adds no real value and could be done by any reasonably intelligent person, with or without a degree. But I found a way to deal with the ennui.

There are three limbs. First, just be apathetic about your job. The people who seem to be the most stressed at my firm are the ones who believe that what they are doing matters. It doesn't. Just do what absolutely needs to be done and what you know the client is concerned about. Everything else you should do the bare minimum on and outsource that low-priority work as much as possible to juniors, paralegals and secretaries, regardless of the quality of their work. Just review low-priority work for egregious errors (e.g. misspelling a client's name) and ignore the rest (most mistakes are fine to ignore).

I know this is easier said than done, but you need to a find a position where you have the freedom to take time-saving actions. In other words, you need a place that gives you autonomy to work how you want, that has a word processing department and juniors and paralegals, etc. It also helps if you like your colleagues because that will reduce your stress.

The second limb is to use that free time to get satisfaction and a sense of purpose from something outside your job. For me, I'm trying to build a social venture. I love working on it and that passion makes my pointless day job a lot easier to tolerate.

The third limb is to aggressively save and invest. The more you have saved, the less dependent you are on a job you find meaningless. That independence turns the job into a thing you just kinda do instead of an albatross you are forced to wear. I've found that this attitude makes the job feel lighter.

I'll admit that there are times when the emptiness of my work overcomes me and I fall into despair. But as long as I shift my focus to my venture or investing or any other productive activity I find worthwhile, I can usually pull myself out of it quickly.