Fired as a First Year Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm not 100% on board with these being "tiny" mistakes. Typos, for example, aren't "tiny" mistakes when you're charging a client 300 (or considerably more) an hour.

it's a matter of proportionality. One or two typos in a 10 page document once or twice a month won't get a first-year associate shit-canned so soon, but a typo every other sentence and they wouldn't have waited until after bonus season.

It sounds like you might not be wanting to change markets, but if you were to apply to other markets hanging your hat on wanting to be in another city can be a great way to cover up the early exit from your firm.

This is great advice. More importantly, it's an excuse you can use twice - when you try to get back to your home market you've got a good explanation why.

as an aside, whenever I was asked about moving market, my standard answer was family reasons (as in, my family will be better off if I get the job I'm applying to).
"I have family near Nashville(.... St. Louis is only 5 hours away...)"
"My spouse is moving there for a job (because my spouse is coming with me)"

The less said the better, and if they ask for details, deflect
"Where does your cousin live?" "(9 hours) to the south of town... what kind of clients will I be working with?"

I definitely wasn't looking over every other sentence, just a few mistakes on various pages. Regardless, I doubt they would have fired me just for this, especially since, although I was given occasional feedback to that effect on individual assignments, I was never given a formal warning.

I know moving markets could be a good idea, but I don't particularly want to. Plus, the "local market" that I am talking about is New York, which is already one of the hotter markets, so I'm not so sure leaving would get much done for me.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not 100% on board with these being "tiny" mistakes. Typos, for example, aren't "tiny" mistakes when you're charging a client 300 (or considerably more) an hour.

I mean, it doesn't really matter. The firm just fired a first year in February. There aren't enough "tiny" mistakes or typos that they could have possibly done so far to add up to getting shit-canned. This is obviously about the firm and not OP. Actually, it's probably about an industry-wide litigation slow down that's effecting most firms right now, including the big dogs.

Good luck OP. Don't believe anyone who tells you this is about you. You're in the right mind frame and on the right track, keep hustling. I would be aiming for any federal judge anywhere in the country, especially the new ones. If you land one of those gigs, you'll easily be able to tell future mid-law/big law jobs you left your former firm for the opportunity to clerk.

Thanks, I appreciate it. It does kind of suck having people saying it was my fault for the typos, when my sense is that most firms don't can a first year in February over typos. I'd expected some more time to sort myself out and develop a system so I could consistently put out higher quality work, but it wasn't meant to be unfortunately.

For now all I can really do is keep hustling and ask more experienced people for advice on navigating this situation.

I'm at a biglaw firm and I'd say a lot of first years suck honestly. But you won't see them getting pushed out. In fact, even underbilling at like 1400-1500 hours won't get them pushed out. It's your firm OP - they simply couldn't afford to keep you on. Just hustle now. Best way would be to craft a plausible story like you've always wanted X practice area but your firm doesn't have it so you're trying to make a move as a junior before you become too niche at what you're currently doing. Say that story and believe it and you'll be golden. Unlimited website time means you should be good.

Thank you, that helps a good deal. I recognize that I made mistakes, but I don't feel that they added up to termination. Again, it doesn't really matter either way now because this is the situation I'm in.

That was the narrative I was planning to use, I was just looking for a second opinion before committing to saying something to that effect, so thanks!

[Anonymous User]

I'd expected some more time to sort myself out and develop a system so I could consistently put out higher quality work, but it wasn't meant to be unfortunately.

It's really difficult to proof work you just completed, because you're not seeing the mistakes you didn't see two minutes earlier. It's a lot easier to review it fresh. If at all possible, finish your work by the end of the day, and review first thing in the morning.
If that doesn't work, lunch or a bathroom break is a bare minimum to reset your frame of mind, but I'd also recommend switching tasks: Finish X; work on Y; switch back to X and pretend someone else did the work and look for that person's mistakes.

Towards the end of my brief tenure, this is more or less what I started doing. I tried to check on another day altogether if time permitted, but at a minimum I tried to put an hour between my first draft and my first review, and I began seeing some notable improvements, which was reflected in my feedback. This is partly why I was so blindsided, but as the above commenter said, it may not have really been about me.

That's a habit I definitely plan to keep and run with going forward. That extra day of review makes a huge difference because I won't forget the context for the assignment and I get fresh eyes to look at it again.

[Anonymous User]

I'd expected some more time to sort myself out and develop a system so I could consistently put out higher quality work, but it wasn't meant to be unfortunately.

It's really difficult to proof work you just completed, because you're not seeing the mistakes you didn't see two minutes earlier. It's a lot easier to review it fresh. If at all possible, finish your work by the end of the day, and review first thing in the morning.
If that doesn't work, lunch or a bathroom break is a bare minimum to reset your frame of mind, but I'd also recommend switching tasks: Finish X; work on Y; switch back to X and pretend someone else did the work and look for that person's mistakes.

Yea that's definitely true. I feel comfortable with my ability to continue to grow and eventually become a good lawyer if I keep hustling, which I intend to. Right now I'm just looking for an opportunity to learn and grow somewhere.

[Anonymous User]

As someone currently working on a case with a V20 law firm as opposing counsel, if typos (especially in final, filed documents!) is a fire-able offense, I have no idea how I keep seeing the same attorneys at each hearing.

We can't really know without actually seeing OP's work whether it's "OP's fault," but in order to be fired as a 1st year, you have to be really, really bad. Like, telling a superior you'll do something and then not doing it at all, and not telling anyone you didn't do it, until someone notices. And doing that 2 or 3 times. 1st years are given a lot of leeway, as they should be. Yeah, 1st year sucks, but you can't blame them, after all, they've been practicing for... less than a year...

Which leads me and most people to believe this is a firm issue, as OP's work probably wasn't that bad, even if it was perhaps below average for 1st years.

This isn't carte blanche to GO NUTS and not proofread but honestly, if you have a comma splice or "teh" instead of "the," well, that's why nothing gets filed without like 3+ pairs of eyes having gone over it.

[Anonymous User]

OP were you Corp or Lit? Were you NY based?

May have an in-house option at my co.

[Anonymous User]

OP were you Corp or Lit? Were you NY based?

May have an in-house option at my co.

I was in a corporate group in NY. Thanks a lot, feel free to PM me!

[ghostoftraynor]

As someone currently working on a case with a V20 law firm as opposing counsel, if typos (especially in final, filed documents!) is a fire-able offense, I have no idea how I keep seeing the same attorneys at each hearing.

We can't really know without actually seeing OP's work whether it's "OP's fault," but in order to be fired as a 1st year, you have to be really, really bad. Like, telling a superior you'll do something and then not doing it at all, and not telling anyone you didn't do it, until someone notices. And doing that 2 or 3 times. 1st years are given a lot of leeway, as they should be. Yeah, 1st year sucks, but you can't blame them, after all, they've been practicing for... less than a year...

Which leads me and most people to believe this is a firm issue, as OP's work probably wasn't that bad, even if it was perhaps below average for 1st years.

This isn't carte blanche to GO NUTS and not proofread but honestly, if you have a comma splice or "teh" instead of "the," well, that's why nothing gets filed without like 3+ pairs of eyes having gone over it.

I feel like the typos are the end of the world mentality is more a corporate thing. In practices where people have to do a substantial amount of fresh drafting, typos are inevitable. There is obviously a point where typos indicate a degree of carelessness. But, no, typo free documents is not why biglaw firms charge their clients such high rates.

[Anonymous User]

As someone currently working on a case with a V20 law firm as opposing counsel, if typos (especially in final, filed documents!) is a fire-able offense, I have no idea how I keep seeing the same attorneys at each hearing.

We can't really know without actually seeing OP's work whether it's "OP's fault," but in order to be fired as a 1st year, you have to be really, really bad. Like, telling a superior you'll do something and then not doing it at all, and not telling anyone you didn't do it, until someone notices. And doing that 2 or 3 times. 1st years are given a lot of leeway, as they should be. Yeah, 1st year sucks, but you can't blame them, after all, they've been practicing for... less than a year...

Which leads me and most people to believe this is a firm issue, as OP's work probably wasn't that bad, even if it was perhaps below average for 1st years.

This isn't carte blanche to GO NUTS and not proofread but honestly, if you have a comma splice or "teh" instead of "the," well, that's why nothing gets filed without like 3+ pairs of eyes having gone over it.

I feel like the typos are the end of the world mentality is more a corporate thing. In practices where people have to do a substantial amount of fresh drafting, typos are inevitable. There is obviously a point where typos indicate a degree of carelessness. But, no, typo free documents is not why biglaw firms charge their clients such high rates.

Which is kind of ironic. At my firm (all corporate), we had a client panel/FAQ type thing giving advice to summer associates, and all of the clients basically said "don't bill a ton of hours proofing for spelling/grammar, because we don't care." I'm sure this varies by client, but are a couple of "teh" typos in a document ever going to meaningfully affect the parties/deal? For me, a second read with fresh eyes helps me eliminate like 75% of typos, if I made any. But then it's kind of like diminishing returns with every additional read. Noticing the very last, least-obvious typo in the document might come after 4 or 5 or 6 reads. But then who wants you to bill for proofing something 4, 5 or 6 times in order to eliminate that last typo that your brain kept glossing over, when someone higher up with much fresher eyes would probably notice it right away?

[Best]

Must be different firm culture/clients. I'm transactional, but I absolutely hear blowback from typos. It's embarrassing to the clients when their investors are correcting our typos. Really hard to justify a first year billing hours on a contract they obviously weren't drafting when typos are slipping past them.It's a pretty big deal for me.

[Vursz]

As someone currently working on a case with a V20 law firm as opposing counsel, if typos (especially in final, filed documents!) is a fire-able offense, I have no idea how I keep seeing the same attorneys at each hearing.

We can't really know without actually seeing OP's work whether it's "OP's fault," but in order to be fired as a 1st year, you have to be really, really bad. Like, telling a superior you'll do something and then not doing it at all, and not telling anyone you didn't do it, until someone notices. And doing that 2 or 3 times. 1st years are given a lot of leeway, as they should be. Yeah, 1st year sucks, but you can't blame them, after all, they've been practicing for... less than a year...

Which leads me and most people to believe this is a firm issue, as OP's work probably wasn't that bad, even if it was perhaps below average for 1st years.

This isn't carte blanche to GO NUTS and not proofread but honestly, if you have a comma splice or "teh" instead of "the," well, that's why nothing gets filed without like 3+ pairs of eyes having gone over it.

I feel like the typos are the end of the world mentality is more a corporate thing. In practices where people have to do a substantial amount of fresh drafting, typos are inevitable. There is obviously a point where typos indicate a degree of carelessness. But, no, typo free documents is not why biglaw firms charge their clients such high rates.

Seconded. Things happen so fast in lit that everyone expects there’s going to be a stray typo. As long as it’s not embarrassing (misspelling your firm’s name), it’s not worthy of firing.

[Anonymous User]

I'd expected some more time to sort myself out and develop a system so I could consistently put out higher quality work, but it wasn't meant to be unfortunately.

It's really difficult to proof work you just completed, because you're not seeing the mistakes you didn't see two minutes earlier. It's a lot easier to review it fresh. If at all possible, finish your work by the end of the day, and review first thing in the morning.
If that doesn't work, lunch or a bathroom break is a bare minimum to reset your frame of mind, but I'd also recommend switching tasks: Finish X; work on Y; switch back to X and pretend someone else did the work and look for that person's mistakes.

That is more or less what I ended up doing, and it was effective but not enough, so I started reading everything three times before I sent it out. I got better, my feedback substantially improved over the last month or so as I learned more and more how to do my job. Unfortunately, it seems like it was too little too late.

[nealric]

Must be different firm culture/clients. I'm transactional, but I absolutely hear blowback from typos. It's embarrassing to the clients when their investors are correcting our typos. Really hard to justify a first year billing hours on a contract they obviously weren't drafting when typos are slipping past them.It's a pretty big deal for me.

It depends on the purpose of the agreement and how critical it is. If it's a major transaction, typos are very important. Cost isn't that important to us, and we'd prefer everything to be perfect. If it's just an advice memo, I really don't care unless it's super egregious.

The biggest typos are time/date/name errors. Firms have been sued for malpractice over date typos. If they don't change any substantive meaning, it's a lot less critical.

But in general, I think citing typos for firing a brand new first year is likely just a trumped up reason for what is essentially an economic dismissal. Some people are bad with typos (I know I am), but almost nobody is beyond help in that department. Heck, if you are bad with typos, proof reading is a FANTASTIC use of secretaries/paralegals if your firm doesn't have a dedicated proofreading department.

[Anonymous User]

OP were you Corp or Lit? Were you NY based?

May have an in-house option at my co.

I was in a corporate group in NY. Thanks a lot, feel free to PM me!

Could be a fit, mods you have permission to send OP my username.

[Anonymous User]

Must be different firm culture/clients. I'm transactional, but I absolutely hear blowback from typos. It's embarrassing to the clients when their investors are correcting our typos. Really hard to justify a first year billing hours on a contract they obviously weren't drafting when typos are slipping past them.It's a pretty big deal for me.

It depends on the purpose of the agreement and how critical it is. If it's a major transaction, typos are very important. Cost isn't that important to us, and we'd prefer everything to be perfect. If it's just an advice memo, I really don't care unless it's super egregious.

The biggest typos are time/date/name errors. Firms have been sued for malpractice over date typos. If they don't change any substantive meaning, it's a lot less critical.

But in general, I think citing typos for firing a brand new first year is likely just a trumped up reason for what is essentially an economic dismissal. Some people are bad with typos (I know I am), but almost nobody is beyond help in that department. Heck, if you are bad with typos, proof reading is a FANTASTIC use of secretaries/paralegals if your firm doesn't have a dedicated proofreading department.

Having unlimited time would be great, but the issue was that I was explicitly told several times not to spend too much time on any one task. I understand typos are important, but my impression is that learning their importance and getting better and developing a system to consistently deliver a polished work product.

I think what happened was I made a mistake for one partner who recently became the only one really bringing in business, so there already wasn't much work there and what little there was wasn't getting to me. I agree that typos are a trumped up rationale for firing me because the company wasn't doing well.

[QContinuum]

OP were you Corp or Lit? Were you NY based?

May have an in-house option at my co.

I was in a corporate group in NY. Thanks a lot, feel free to PM me!

Could be a fit, mods you have permission to send OP my username.

Thanks for this. Feel free to directly PM OP, who made their initial post in this thread non-anonymously. OP won't be able to PM you or respond via PM, as they haven't yet hit the PM-enabling threshold of 5 non-anonymous posts on TLS, so when you PM them, please consider including some non-TLS contact info for yourself so they can get back to you, whether it's an work/personal email address or phone number or IM or whatever.