Moved from doing Private Equity law to business role in Private Equity AMA Forum

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this. When you say you were doing private equity law, do you m&a and/or acquisition finance type deal work or fund formation? Were you at an elite PE law firm (simpson or Kirkland etc)? How did you sell your legal experience?

Bump. If you don’t mind answering, I’d really appreciate it.

Accidental anon.

I did both - honestly fund formation helped more in understanding how PE firms worked than M&A. I won’t give any details on firm. It’s pretty easy to find info on M&A and such but fundraising is a bit of a black box, when interviewing you kind of can sound like you have been there more if you have a funds background.

I pitched willingness to learn, drive to do whatever it takes to get things done, and ability to crank under pressure. PE after all is still an office job with a lot of hours.

[Anonymous User]

Congrats on your salary. You definitely made the right move financially! At what point in the finance trajectory do the earnings generally surpass law?

Pretty ambiguous question.

Depends on where you are at your firm/what segment of finance you are in. A middle of the pack partner at a Bryan Cave (note not a traditional massive biglaw firm) likely makes more money than a senior VP of corporate development (typically 15-20+ years of experience) at a lot of companies.

IBD tends to be ahead of biglaw day one up until partnership happens, though a middle of the road partner at a NYC biglaw firm probably has similar or greater compensation to a middle of the road MD at an NYC investment bank. The value the banking role has over the biglaw role is a much wider universe of exits and a wider skill set.

[Anonymous User]

OP, thank you for an inspiring thread. You let TLS know they can potentially (even if highly highly unlikely) get a business side job with more predictable hours, better comp, no billables, and more interesting work (financial modeling>due diligence/form editing/checklists any day). But some questions could help myself and others here dissatisfied with legal work.

1. Is this move possible for a current 3L, can he or she skip big law life altogether and go straight into buy side finance, or even a non prestigious ibank?
2. What steps do you recommend said 3L take? Where can he or she learn modeling in an efficient and affordable manner?
3. Do you regret going to law school? Would you have rather gotten an MBA or done IBD and gone straight into PE?

Exact reason why I am happy to do an AMA like this - when I read TLS back in the early 2010s most threads noted that this was an impossible movw and I should be massmailimg or something instead of worrying about non-legal opportunities. Note the amount of true financial modeling you do as an IBD associate is pretty low to be honest and there's a lot of ppt deck creation.

1. For banking it's possible but you are kind of late, most banks locked everyone up in like October, check the MBA forums to confirm this. Buyside is still open but much much harder and you are setting yourself up for failure if you don't know how to model right now and want to take a buyside job starting after graduation. I'm assuming you are comfortable reneging on your biglaw offer and repaying barbri etc.
2. Start networking, possibly take CFA level 1 if you have no business undergrad, if you can do any sort of finance internship this semester, would be beneficial ("transactional lawyer, hungry to learn or something"). But as I noted before, you are very late so you will likely need to do a year or two in biglaw and then lateral as a banking associate.
3. I was a super splitter so law school was the only real option. Moving to IBD/Consulting was the goal from day one. If I had good grades, probably would have tried to do IBD -> PE or startups.

I turned down my big law offer. Honestly would rather learn a trade or be a cook or something in a real business than practice. What would you suggest for someone in my position? I have no hard quant skills (prestigious HS/undergrad but soft major), not a finance focused job history. I know it is all uphill and PE is almost certainly out of reach but any suggestions are appreciated!

I really thought about turning down my biglaw offer when I was in school, but actually stopped all recruitment because my biglaw offer exploded.


Are you K-JD? There are a good deal of companies that are super flexible on major from target undergrads especially in growth equity sized start-up land (Oscar health specifically comes to mind). They see it as getting someone very smart for cheap. Private equity will be an uphill battle without any hard quant skills. Have you fully ruled out an MBA, probably at the law school you are at? That’s honestly the best route where you are in the recruiting cycle,.

Anyways,some ideas/industries I explored from my end that are receptive to JDs generally:
-Restructuring both IBD and consulting, firms that I know are receptive to JDs are Houlihan and Lazard, but the restructuring banking list is pretty deep. Consulting firms on the restructuring side are Alvarez, Alix, FTI, Huron.
-Activism: Both on the banking, advisory, legal and PR side of things. So firms like Okapi Partners, PJT Camberview, most banks now have activism defense groups which are rapidly growing. To find roles look at “activism defense” “shareholder advisory” Look at the Activist Insight sponsored companies. Law firms like Schultz/Olshan have knock-out activism practices as well with really good exits (lots of hedge funds in both legal and legal/investing roles).
-Management Consulting - Pretty standard MBB, note you are super late for recruiting here and likely not open. Most other strategy firms were only open to taking people as analysts, and I didn’t look at Implementation Consulting at all.

[Anonymous User]

Would you recommend a JD/MBA? Currently a 2L interested in making the jump to PE directly.

[Stackitup]

Would you recommend a JD/MBA? Currently a 2L interested in making the jump to PE directly.

Bumping, thanks again for your help.

[Anonymous User]

Would you recommend a JD/MBA? Currently a 2L interested in making the jump to PE directly.

Yes, assuming you have limited finance experience and your b-school has good IB recruitment. Both of the people from my class who went directly into PE or had offers to go directly into PE were JD/MBAs. I seriously considered it but didn’t pull the trigger because I didn’t want the restrictive debt - I graduated close to debt free.

You would want to do next summer IB associate, summer after that summer at a private equity fund, with all in - school internships being at local PE funds.

Note if you are in NYC, this part-time calculus is a bit harder as everyone and their mother is looking for in-school internships in NYC and most people have actually legit finance experience. You would want to sell your mixed background there.

**Note I don’t check this board especially with this new, confusing format so responses may be super delayed.**

[Stackitup]

Would you recommend a JD/MBA? Currently a 2L interested in making the jump to PE directly.

Yes, assuming you have limited finance experience and your b-school has good IB recruitment. Both of the people from my class who went directly into PE or had offers to go directly into PE were JD/MBAs. I seriously considered it but didn’t pull the trigger because I didn’t want the restrictive debt - I graduated close to debt free.

You would want to do next summer IB associate, summer after that summer at a private equity fund, with all in - school internships being at local PE funds.

Note if you are in NYC, this part-time calculus is a bit harder as everyone and their mother is looking for in-school internships in NYC and most people have actually legit finance experience. You would want to sell your mixed background there.

**Note I don’t check this board especially with this new, confusing format so responses may be super delayed.**

As a 2L, I'll be in biglaw SA in NYC this summer. Will start the JD/MBA next Fall. Any thoughts on the path for summer internships, or other factors, to focus on moving forward? Thanks for your insights!

[Anonymous User]

Congrats on your salary. You definitely made the right move financially! At what point in the finance trajectory do the earnings generally surpass law?

Pretty ambiguous question.

Depends on where you are at your firm/what segment of finance you are in. A middle of the pack partner at a Bryan Cave (note not a traditional massive biglaw firm) likely makes more money than a senior VP of corporate development (typically 15-20+ years of experience) at a lot of companies.

That seems low to me. The SVP of Corporate Development at my F500 company made several million last year (according to the proxy). But perhaps at other companies that title does not denote the head honcho.

[FND]

That seems low to me. The SVP of Corporate Development at my F500 company made several million last year (according to the proxy). But perhaps at other companies that title does not denote the head honcho.

note that salaries in the F500 are all over the place. For example, CEO salary ranges from $200k to $130 million.

[Johnnybgoode92]

Would you recommend a JD/MBA? Currently a 2L interested in making the jump to PE directly.

Yes, assuming you have limited finance experience and your b-school has good IB recruitment. Both of the people from my class who went directly into PE or had offers to go directly into PE were JD/MBAs. I seriously considered it but didn’t pull the trigger because I didn’t want the restrictive debt - I graduated close to debt free.

You would want to do next summer IB associate, summer after that summer at a private equity fund, with all in - school internships being at local PE funds.

Note if you are in NYC, this part-time calculus is a bit harder as everyone and their mother is looking for in-school internships in NYC and most people have actually legit finance experience. You would want to sell your mixed background there.

**Note I don’t check this board especially with this new, confusing format so responses may be super delayed.**

As a 2L, I'll be in biglaw SA in NYC this summer. Will start the JD/MBA next Fall. Any thoughts on the path for summer internships, or other factors, to focus on moving forward? Thanks for your insights!

Make sure you have assignments in groups that seem transferable such as m and a or bankruptcy. You’ll get talking points and a stronger resume. Get some hard core modeling skills through your b school and do not do law next summer. You can get on the business path for the reasons discussed here.

[Stackitup]

Would that be a private equity summer internship between the M1 and M2 years? Also, would you suggest any networking tips for this summer in New York? Not sure if there's a suggested way to secure a PE (or hedge fund) internship. Greatly appreciate it!

[Anonymous User]

Would that be a private equity summer internship between the M1 and M2 years? Also, would you suggest any networking tips for this summer in New York? Not sure if there's a suggested way to secure a PE (or hedge fund) internship. Greatly appreciate it!

Reach out to alumni of your school in PE and try to get coffee chats etc.

If no alumni, reach out to JD/MBAs and pure JDs. Stay in NYU dorms (honestly probably better networking than going to Harvard undergrad).

[Stackitup]

Would that be a private equity summer internship between the M1 and M2 years? Also, would you suggest any networking tips for this summer in New York? Not sure if there's a suggested way to secure a PE (or hedge fund) internship. Greatly appreciate it!

Reach out to alumni of your school in PE and try to get coffee chats etc.

If no alumni, reach out to JD/MBAs and pure JDs. Stay in NYU dorms (honestly probably better networking than going to Harvard undergrad).

Nice. I'm curious- why NYU?

[Anonymous User]

Would that be a private equity summer internship between the M1 and M2 years? Also, would you suggest any networking tips for this summer in New York? Not sure if there's a suggested way to secure a PE (or hedge fund) internship. Greatly appreciate it!

Reach out to alumni of your school in PE and try to get coffee chats etc.

If no alumni, reach out to JD/MBAs and pure JDs. Stay in NYU dorms (honestly probably better networking than going to Harvard undergrad).

Nice. I'm curious- why NYU?

They open their doors to summer-interns. Most of the people there are (a) i-banking/high finance interns (b) interns funded by parents (ie; likley connected) or (c) grad school (MBA/JD summers). Just a lot of people who are already basically pre-selected to be trending towards high end things.

[Kwitter23]

Hey thanks for doing this AMA. Very rare to hear a business side exit story on TLS!

Goal is to make the jump from NYC biglaw to a large fund (i.e. BX, KKR, TPG etc.) on the investment side.

Do you see this as a possible move with the right combination of networking and modelling and financial knowledge, or would it be a necessary to try to first make the jump to IBD to even have a shot (or do you see the whole situation as no real shot at all)?

Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

Hey thanks for doing this AMA. Very rare to hear a business side exit story on TLS!

Goal is to make the jump from NYC biglaw to a large fund (i.e. BX, KKR, TPG etc.) on the investment side.

Do you see this as a possible move with the right combination of networking and modelling and financial knowledge, or would it be a necessary to try to first make the jump to IBD to even have a shot (or do you see the whole situation as no real shot at all)?

Thanks!

Directly very unlikely/no shot at all, unless you did PE prior to law school at a good fund.

There's like 3 seats a year that open up in corporate buyouts at the senior associate/VP level at the funds you listed, and those go to MBAs who have done 4-5 years of IBD/PE experience, usually at those funds. Also side note, if you want comp that's going to stomp biglaw partners in the long run, going smaller firm size (think CD&R) is much better as you can get much better carry economics early on. Blackstone/TPG etc have too many mouthes to feed.

If you are willing to do things that aren't vanilla PE, still super unlikely but marginally higher chance.

Shoot for IBD, it's a tried and true path from biglaw/law school, and you can move with some work to a solid mid market shop.

[Anonymous User]

Hey thanks for doing this AMA. Very rare to hear a business side exit story on TLS!

Goal is to make the jump from NYC biglaw to a large fund (i.e. BX, KKR, TPG etc.) on the investment side.

Do you see this as a possible move with the right combination of networking and modelling and financial knowledge, or would it be a necessary to try to first make the jump to IBD to even have a shot (or do you see the whole situation as no real shot at all)?

Thanks!

Directly very unlikely/no shot at all, unless you did PE prior to law school at a good fund.

There's like 3 seats a year that open up in corporate buyouts at the senior associate/VP level at the funds you listed, and those go to MBAs who have done 4-5 years of IBD/PE experience, usually at those funds. Also side note, if you want comp that's going to stomp biglaw partners in the long run, going smaller firm size (think CD&R) is much better as you can get much better carry economics early on. Blackstone/TPG etc have too many mouthes to feed.

If you are willing to do things that aren't vanilla PE, still super unlikely but marginally higher chance.

Shoot for IBD, it's a tried and true path from biglaw/law school, and you can move with some work to a solid mid market shop.

Thanks so much for the response. Confirmed a few of my suspicions. Definitely going to push for IBD.

Appreciate it!

[LBJ's Hair]

My (potentially useless) two cents is that if you aren't leaning in to the *JD* part of JD-MBA, you're sorta doing it wrong. Like, every banking associate out of MBA thinks s/he doesn't really belong there and should be making the big boy investment decisions on the buy-side, s/he's a year away from lateraling over, etc. It almost never happens. Why would be you any different?

The answer is: You're like, not any different, law school isn't all that practical, but the JD makes you *seem* vaguely suited for special situations, credit, bankruptcy, etc. So...focus on that? In course selection, internship/externships, the clubs you join, whatever. Obviously networking is necessary but not sufficient. (To preempt the "taking a class in bankruptcy doesn't qualify you to be a VP at Silver Point" - I know, you're mostly taking it so you can talk about it in an interview or coffee chat.)

if you graduate having done a corporate rotation at V20, a banking internship, maybe a case competition for a traditional LBO, and join a generic industry coverage group at [insert bulge bracket investment bank], to me, that's a missed opportunity. (Not saying you'll *never* get that PE job, but most of the people in your shoes don't.)

[Anonymous User]

My (potentially useless) two cents is that if you aren't leaning in to the *JD* part of JD-MBA, you're sorta doing it wrong. Like, every banking associate out of MBA thinks s/he doesn't really belong there and should be making the big boy investment decisions on the buy-side, s/he's a year away from lateraling over, etc. It almost never happens. Why would be you any different?

The answer is: You're like, not any different, law school isn't all that practical, but the JD makes you *seem* vaguely suited for special situations, credit, bankruptcy, etc. So...focus on that? In course selection, internship/externships, the clubs you join, whatever. Obviously networking is necessary but not sufficient. (To preempt the "taking a class in bankruptcy doesn't qualify you to be a VP at Silver Point" - I know, you're mostly taking it so you can talk about it in an interview or coffee chat.)

if you graduate having done a corporate rotation at V20, a banking internship, maybe a case competition for a traditional LBO, and join a generic industry coverage group at [insert bulge bracket investment bank], to me, that's a missed opportunity. (Not saying you'll *never* get that PE job, but most of the people in your shoes don't.)

Agreed that your JD half should shine, but more likely for top specialized banking groups (that end up having much better exit oops).

For example RX or levfin at a top bank where knowing the docs really matters. Alternatively going to a bank's internal buyside operation (GS/MS) also are the roles that matter.

Note, there is very high crossover with raid defense groups and lawyers but I would caution anyone interested in that route as the modeling is lighter and activist hedge funds would rather hire some PJT RSSG analyst who is a technical monster rather than some lawyer who might know corporate governance slightly better. Also raid defense groups are generally loss leaders to get M&a/cap markets dollars which can limit your comp.


Yes there are absolute sickos (usually at HYS) who go straight into PE but these are also the ones doing Wachtell summers as a resume builder or had banking analyst years. As a T14, JD/MBA, PE is a hard path to get directly out of school, however a couple years at a good banking group, you are imminently more employable.

[LBJ's Hair]

My (potentially useless) two cents is that if you aren't leaning in to the *JD* part of JD-MBA, you're sorta doing it wrong. Like, every banking associate out of MBA thinks s/he doesn't really belong there and should be making the big boy investment decisions on the buy-side, s/he's a year away from lateraling over, etc. It almost never happens. Why would be you any different?

The answer is: You're like, not any different, law school isn't all that practical, but the JD makes you *seem* vaguely suited for special situations, credit, bankruptcy, etc. So...focus on that? In course selection, internship/externships, the clubs you join, whatever. Obviously networking is necessary but not sufficient. (To preempt the "taking a class in bankruptcy doesn't qualify you to be a VP at Silver Point" - I know, you're mostly taking it so you can talk about it in an interview or coffee chat.)

if you graduate having done a corporate rotation at V20, a banking internship, maybe a case competition for a traditional LBO, and join a generic industry coverage group at [insert bulge bracket investment bank], to me, that's a missed opportunity. (Not saying you'll *never* get that PE job, but most of the people in your shoes don't.)

Agreed that your JD half should shine, but more likely for top specialized banking groups (that end up having much better exit oops).

For example RX or levfin at a top bank where knowing the docs really matters. Alternatively going to a bank's internal buyside operation (GS/MS) also are the roles that matter.

Note, there is very high crossover with raid defense groups and lawyers but I would caution anyone interested in that route as the modeling is lighter and activist hedge funds would rather hire some PJT RSSG analyst who is a technical monster rather than some lawyer who might know corporate governance slightly better. Also raid defense groups are generally loss leaders to get M&a/cap markets dollars which can limit your comp.


Yes there are absolute sickos (usually at HYS) who go straight into PE but these are also the ones doing Wachtell summers as a resume builder or had banking analyst years. As a T14, JD/MBA, PE is a hard path to get directly out of school, however a couple years at a good banking group, you are imminently more employable.

Bolded is very WallStreetOasis-circa-2011. What a throwback.

Don't disagree with the substance of the post, though.

[anonbanker]

Here's a list of banks I know that do some form of law school recruiting:

- GS
- MS
- JPM
- CS
- Barclays
- Lazard

All for coverage group positions. I'm not sure you have to sell yourself as "restructuring" (and definitely not "levfin") to get into IBD from law school.

And if you can get them, why not? I don't know that forgoing GS TMT for some restructuring group makes sense because you are able what you learnt in bankruptcy 101 (which trust me, will be a lot less useful than you think).

[Anonymous User]

Here's a list of banks I know that do some form of law school recruiting:

- GS
- MS
- JPM
- CS
- Barclays
- Lazard

All for coverage group positions. I'm not sure you have to sell yourself as "restructuring" (and definitely not "levfin") to get into IBD from law school.

And if you can get them, why not? I don't know that forgoing GS TMT for some restructuring group makes sense because you are able what you learnt in bankruptcy 101 (which trust me, will be a lot less useful than you think).

Point is more that you can use your JD to outhit your coverage of where you would normally land in Ao recruiting than comparing coverage groups (and what would get you to buyside - albeit more credit focused).


If you are comparing say GS TMT and Lev fin at Nomura, yeah go to GS TMT. But the idea more is use your JD when networking, etc. to place into say Lazard RX rather than a middling coverage group at at Barclays.

That being said, I never worked at a bank and didn't really do generalized coverage group IBD recruitment (targeted RX/raid defense) so perhaps my view of recruiting there is wrong.

[LBJ's Hair]

Here's a list of banks I know that do some form of law school recruiting:

- GS
- MS
- JPM
- CS
- Barclays
- Lazard

All for coverage group positions. I'm not sure you have to sell yourself as "restructuring" (and definitely not "levfin") to get into IBD from law school.

And if you can get them, why not? I don't know that forgoing GS TMT for some restructuring group makes sense because you are able what you learnt in bankruptcy 101 (which trust me, will be a lot less useful than you think).

OK, to be clear: I don't think anyone in this thread *just* wants a banking job out of law school. Like that's not the hard part.

What we've been discussing is getting a *buy-side* job. And for many law students, MBAs, whatever, an investment banking job seems like a necessary pre-requisite to getting it.

My point was that the vast majority of investment banking associates, even at bulge brackets, fancy boutiques, whatever, will not get buy-side jobs. MBAs from Stern, Booth, whatever, roll into these jobs with a chip on their shoulder, thinking that they're too good to be bankers, actually they should be badass buy-side dude. And then after three years of fruitless searching, they're pushed out and go into ... honestly, I don't know what they do. Corporate development or whatever. The finance guy version of in-house. They're not investing.

So, if you're a JD-MBA, or just a JD, you need to ask yourself, "Why am I different"? Well, you have a law degree. If you're going down this path, you should lean into it. There are some roles where that's actually sorta useful. Or at least superficially *seems* useful.

Is it a panacea? No. But if you missed the investment banking analyst boat, you're fighting an uphill battle. And positioning yourself as generic associate who just sort of happened to get this law degree by accident is, in my view, a waste.

Regarding the relative good-ness of various investment banking "groups": I'm familiar with all these lists of what's "best" and that stuff matters a lot if you're like a 22 year old baby analyst and a recruiter from Glocap is setting you up with a half dozen private equity interviews 2 months into the job because there's really nothing else for the headhunter/fund to evaluate you on. Other than school pedigree, maybe a modeling test .

But an associate isn't coming in to a 2 year pre-MBA, churn-and-burn program. It's more a long-term hiring decision. Need to have substantive skills. Doesn't mean I'd rather be at Wells Fargo than Goldman, but I don't think it's as simple as "Goldman TMT is the best!!!" Like, if you're an associate there and 80% of your time is spent on IPO work, it doesn't matter if college kids from Wharton think your group is fancy or w/e - you don't have the skills needed to help someone make an investing decision.

I think the bottom-line is that there's no clear "path" to moving to the buy-side as an investment banking associate. The focus should be on (a) developing substantive skills, and (b) building a resume that has some sort of plausible narrative for why you should be hired when a dozen other post-MBA people won't be.

[anonbanker]

I think the bottom-line is that there's no clear "path" to moving to the buy-side as an investment banking associate. The focus should be on (a) developing substantive skills, and (b) building a resume that has some sort of plausible narrative for why you should be hired when a dozen other post-MBA people won't be.

You're totally right that post-MBA associates don't have the same access to buyside recruiting

My first observation is I'm not sure what's so bad about hypothetically being in GS TMT and grinding out the Uber / Spotify / Pinterest IPOs with the occasional CBS-Viacom merger. Obviously I'm biased here but seems way more fun and interesting than investing

But let's assume the goal is buyside at any cost

In my seat, where I do a mix of coverage and M&A, I get regular inbounds for:

- Industry-specific MM PE
- Industry-specific VC
- Industry-specific multi-manager public equity (Citadel, Point72, etc.)
- "Traditional HF" L/S equity
- Merger arb (law school background a great spin here)

Obviously your RX dude doesn't get these looks. Probably he gets a call from an Angelo Gordon recruiter for distressed credit. Btw I got the same call through a industry hook

How does leaning in to my JD help me here?

[anonbanker]

Point is more that you can use your JD to outhit your coverage of where you would normally land in Ao recruiting than comparing coverage groups (and what would get you to buyside - albeit more credit focused).

If you are comparing say GS TMT and Lev fin at Nomura, yeah go to GS TMT. But the idea more is use your JD when networking, etc. to place into say Lazard RX rather than a middling coverage group at at Barclays.

a) Look, it's a nice theory but practically the # of industry / M&A seats for a law student significantly outstrips those for RX. So you are "outhitting your coverage" for a small, niche field that is ceteris paribus going to harder to break into

Note that I refer to RX only because financing groups usually promote associates from their analyst pipeline. Any day of the week they'll pick a guy with markets experience who can learn "the docs" as he goes vs. the guy who has learnt "the docs" in class and would pick up the markets as he goes

All that said, if you are interested in RX, then do it!

b) From where I sit, Lazard RX and Barclays coverage have basically the same level of prestige