Uncertainty of being off duty / not on-call Forum

[misterjames]

I think I disagree, but the more salient point is that the fact that this is arguably justifiable and not an “awful BigLaw story” kind of perfectly sums up why BigLaw is awful.

+100

Thank you. I didn't feel the need to include every single detail in my post from when this occurred to explain why my actions were justified. I'll just agree with the others in pointing out how QC's response is a clear indication that biglaw is an abusive environment. Ffs man...

[Neff]

people who lasted 4+ years - how do you do it? is it the money, or do you just not mind as much?

I have lasted 4+ years in corporate biglaw because I ended up by accident in an unusual situation. I got only one biglaw offer out of LS (median at T20), at a V100 in a secondary market with no income tax. In my four years I billed 1300, 2000, 2200, and 1900, so my mileage is lower than most others. My first year was blissfully slow and I luckily avoided getting fired while other first years in my group got canned. I lateraled once and managed to get a 2 1/2 month break by keeping my head down.

I have discovered that the prestigious firms that everyone drools over are almost all bad in terms of lifestyle and happiness. There are a good number of lifestyle firms in the mid to lower V100s (i.e. the ones that aren't doing so well financially so are slower, but not so poorly that you are constantly in danger of getting fired). However IMO it's not really possible to target those firms when you're in LS, for various reasons.

In addition to avoiding the V5/V10 if you want to last, you have to avoid NYC if at all possible or try to GTFO asap, both due to the brutal lifestyle and COL. A no-income tax state with cheap COL is ideal (Texas is basically a "cheat code" in that regard, if you can stomach it). I hate my job, but I reason that 5 or 6 years at a job you hate while making enough money to allow you to do (almost) whatever you want for the rest of your life is better than forty years of a job you dislike.

I make Cravath scale in a state with no income tax. For the last four years, my budget (for a family of three) has resembled that of a West Virginia coal miner. Nothing gives me more satisfaction that building up my FU fund. In my opinion, hating my job but saving 70% of my paycheck is rational behavior, but hating your job and blowing your paycheck is insanity.

[Anonymous User]

People have mentioned switching groups, but I am not sure if people understand that people in more “lifestyle”-friendly practice groups still have shitty work-life balance.

I’m in traditional benefits (very little deal work), but for months at a time, I go days without a day off. I’m always on call and am regularly asked to review documents on Sunday at 9AM. I’ve been on two “vacations” in the last year and I’ve worked every day on both trips.

People always say that Employee Benefits and Executive Compensation (non-deal) is a cush job, but that’s a lie. I would much prefer being on a deal where there is an end in sight. In benefits, it’s just fire drill after fire drill, deadline after deadline, with no finish line.

[trebekismyhero]

people who lasted 4+ years - how do you do it? is it the money, or do you just not mind as much?

I have lasted 4+ years in corporate biglaw because I ended up by accident in an unusual situation. I got only one biglaw offer out of LS (median at T20), at a V100 in a secondary market with no income tax. In my four years I billed 1300, 2000, 2200, and 1900, so my mileage is lower than most others. My first year was blissfully slow and I luckily avoided getting fired while other first years in my group got canned. I lateraled once and managed to get a 2 1/2 month break by keeping my head down.

I have discovered that the prestigious firms that everyone drools over are almost all bad in terms of lifestyle and happiness. There are a good number of lifestyle firms in the mid to lower V100s (i.e. the ones that aren't doing so well financially so are slower, but not so poorly that you are constantly in danger of getting fired). However IMO it's not really possible to target those firms when you're in LS, for various reasons.

In addition to avoiding the V5/V10 if you want to last, you have to avoid NYC if at all possible or try to GTFO asap, both due to the brutal lifestyle and COL. A no-income tax state with cheap COL is ideal (Texas is basically a "cheat code" in that regard, if you can stomach it). I hate my job, but I reason that 5 or 6 years at a job you hate while making enough money to allow you to do (almost) whatever you want for the rest of your life is better than forty years of a job you dislike.

I make Cravath scale in a state with no income tax. For the last four years, my budget (for a family of three) has resembled that of a West Virginia coal miner. Nothing gives me more satisfaction that building up my FU fund. In my opinion, hating my job but saving 70% of my paycheck is rational behavior, but hating your job and blowing your paycheck is insanity.

Totally agree with the bolded. I think NY is worse because way more firms have facetime requirements. As bad as my xmas eve story was, at least I was doing all that work from home. My last full year in big law I billed over 2400 hours and it sucked, if I had to do my all nighters in the office, I don't think I could have made it to my bonus

[QContinuum]

Totally agree with the bolded. I think NY is worse because way more firms have facetime requirements. As bad as my xmas eve story was, at least I was doing all that work from home. My last full year in big law I billed over 2400 hours and it sucked, if I had to do my all nighters in the office, I don't think I could have made it to my bonus

Do firms really require juniors to pull all-nighters in the office, or physically trek in during the holidays? I've never heard anything along those lines, and I have plenty of friends at firms with strong facetime expectations.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Totally agree with the bolded. I think NY is worse because way more firms have facetime requirements. As bad as my xmas eve story was, at least I was doing all that work from home. My last full year in big law I billed over 2400 hours and it sucked, if I had to do my all nighters in the office, I don't think I could have made it to my bonus

Do firms really require juniors to pull all-nighters in the office, or physically trek in during the holidays? I've never heard anything along those lines, and I have plenty of friends at firms with strong facetime expectations.

I did both in my first four months. I didn't know there was any corporate firm where that *doesn't* happen to at least some people a few times.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Totally agree with the bolded. I think NY is worse because way more firms have facetime requirements. As bad as my xmas eve story was, at least I was doing all that work from home. My last full year in big law I billed over 2400 hours and it sucked, if I had to do my all nighters in the office, I don't think I could have made it to my bonus

Do firms really require juniors to pull all-nighters in the office, or physically trek in during the holidays? I've never heard anything along those lines, and I have plenty of friends at firms with strong facetime expectations.

I was on a deal with Weil NYC. We had in person negotiations that went two days, all day and basically overnight. They made (in my mind) an army of juniors just sit around in their offices in case they were needed. Weirdly enough, at no point did we require their services. What a first year can do for an in-person meeting at 3 am is beyond me. What a dozen of them can do is commit billing fraud.

[QContinuum]

I did both in my first four months. I didn't know there was any corporate firm where that *doesn't* happen to at least some people a few times.

You were actually told to physically stay in your office all night, and to physically come in to your office on a holiday? As in, you attempted to leave and continue that all-nighter from home, but were told, "No, Monochromatic, you're not allowed to leave the office?"

I was on a deal with Weil NYC. We had in person negotiations that went two days, all day and basically overnight. They made (in my mind) an army of juniors just sit around in their offices in case they were needed. Weirdly enough, at no point did we require their services. What a first year can do for an in-person meeting at 3 am is beyond me. What a dozen of them can do is commit billing fraud.

Well, if opposing counsel was physically camped out in your office and the negotiations were going on in person - weird, but I guess it happens - then certainly that would be a pretty darn good justification for requiring your side to also, y'know, physically stick around.

But it doesn't sound like this was your firm's policy to make folks stay in the office after hours, but rather more your firm responding to opposing counsel's decision to negotiate 'round the clock in person.

[nixy]

I did both in my first four months. I didn't know there was any corporate firm where that *doesn't* happen to at least some people a few times.

You were actually told to physically stay in your office all night, and to physically come in to your office on a holiday? As in, you attempted to leave and continue that all-nighter from home, but were told, "No, Monochromatic, you're not allowed to leave the office?"

I feel like this is a sort of misleading way to describe the situation. If you're in the office and you're being given work that you're expected to turn around immediately and you keep getting more, or are told that more is coming, and it's all hands on deck, do you really feel like you can go home? I feel like you wouldn't need to be told directly "no, you're not allowed to leave the office" if everyone else working on the same deal/whatever is also in the office working - you just wouldn't try to leave. Doesn't make it any less pulling an all-nighter in the office.

[Anonymous User]

*Posting anon because I'm probably outing myself to at least some people.

Yeah, I don't know why there is pushback here. All nighters in the office are not that rare. I had to stay in the office all night as a summer (midlaw, so different kind of summer) because I didn't have remote access and the juniors under my main partner were fired/pushed out that week. Partner came into my office around 6 and gave me a talk about how associates sometimes had to suck it up and get something done for a client on a short timeline and how this was a test to see if I was ready for that. The partner stayed until around 2am and then left and said bye on the way out, wishing me well and hoping I would be done soon. Sent him the docs at around 6am, went home and slept until coming into the office at noon (people were looking for me). Pretty miserable experience as a summer, but at least I was doing real work that night and it actually got sent to the client and wasn't a fake assignment as a test lol. Did not return to said firm after the summer.

[trebekismyhero]

Totally agree with the bolded. I think NY is worse because way more firms have facetime requirements. As bad as my xmas eve story was, at least I was doing all that work from home. My last full year in big law I billed over 2400 hours and it sucked, if I had to do my all nighters in the office, I don't think I could have made it to my bonus

Do firms really require juniors to pull all-nighters in the office, or physically trek in during the holidays? I've never heard anything along those lines, and I have plenty of friends at firms with strong facetime expectations.

I was on a deal with Weil NYC. We had in person negotiations that went two days, all day and basically overnight. They made (in my mind) an army of juniors just sit around in their offices in case they were needed. Weirdly enough, at no point did we require their services. What a first year can do for an in-person meeting at 3 am is beyond me. What a dozen of them can do is commit billing fraud.

Yeah, I have friends that were at different V10s in NY, who told me on multiple occasions that as juniors they sat around doing nothing in the office until early morning and then were given work and expected to complete it in the office. None of my friends that work in Chicago, DC, SF, or LA have told me of something similar.

[QContinuum]

I feel like this is a sort of misleading way to describe the situation. If you're in the office and you're being given work that you're expected to turn around immediately and you keep getting more, or are told that more is coming, and it's all hands on deck, do you really feel like you can go home? I feel like you wouldn't need to be told directly "no, you're not allowed to leave the office" if everyone else working on the same deal/whatever is also in the office working - you just wouldn't try to leave. Doesn't make it any less pulling an all-nighter in the office.

This is why it's important to live close to the office. If you can get home quickly, and keep working as soon as you get home, no one will even notice.

I just don't think it's common for juniors to be forced to physically stay in the office after hours (or physically come in on holidays). Seniors don't enjoy overnighting in the office/coming in on Christmas, why would they care whether juniors are physically present or not? Yes, there are situations where opposing counsel will decide to conduct in-person negotiations around the clock, and there are situations where everyone on the deal team will be in the room, or it's the eve of trial and the litigation team is all gathered in the war room, and of course you can't leave when that happens. But I feel like these are more exceptions to the norm than the norm.

Look, I'm not trying to say BigLaw has a decent work/life balance (it usually doesn't), or that the amount of work given to juniors is reasonable (it frequently isn't). But in my personal view, it disserves the community to exaggerate the pain, if you will.

[Vexed]

I did both in my first four months. I didn't know there was any corporate firm where that *doesn't* happen to at least some people a few times.

You were actually told to physically stay in your office all night, and to physically come in to your office on a holiday? As in, you attempted to leave and continue that all-nighter from home, but were told, "No, Monochromatic, you're not allowed to leave the office?"

Is there any requirement or expectation in biglaw that actually looks like this? This is always the sort of stuff that manifests after the fact - comments in reviews about commitment to the work, a lecture the next day from a senior/midlevel about "being a team player", etc. Nobody has to physically stop your exit from the office for the expectation to be set.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I did both in my first four months. I didn't know there was any corporate firm where that *doesn't* happen to at least some people a few times.

You were actually told to physically stay in your office all night, and to physically come in to your office on a holiday? As in, you attempted to leave and continue that all-nighter from home, but were told, "No, Monochromatic, you're not allowed to leave the office?"

Actually, in my case yes, that’s exactly what happened when I left at like 10:30. An email told to get back, followed by other people on the deal telling me the partner had gone “Where the fuck is Mono? Did he actually leave?” over the previous 30 minutes.

But as was said above, that’s not the salient point. It’s made very clear to associates on these deals that it’s a cardinal sin to be caught “unavailable” at any time something is still outstanding for the night. And even if you live so close to the firm that you’d never get caught in transit (like I still do), sometimes that availability includes meetings, requests to hand-deliver printouts and markups and whatever, etc. So gunnery dorks, especially at the junior level, would never even dream of leaving in the first place. And even if they did it and weren’t called on it, as was said, there’s gonna be some snide review about how Eager Beaver doesn’t go the extra mile, doesn’t take ownership, isn’t a team player, etc. Not that’s it’s gonna happen to everyone, but it’s not uncommon.

[beepboopbeep]

Yea I'm not sure why this is so hard to believe. I also don't think it's wholly reserved to NY. I had a similar experience in CA in lit. Short deadline projects, several rounds of back and forth on a draft, alternating between having nothing to do and having to crunch like crazy to turn edits. But often punctured by calls to your office line or the partner walking over to talk about something. Sometimes it was ok to do those at home, sometimes not.

And vexed is right that they don't need to say "you can't leave" for you to get the message. It's not especially hard to intuit when it's ok to work on something at home and when it's not. When you get a little more trust built up you can explicitly ask.

[daedalus2309]

LOL @ “Ummmmmmm TECHNICALLY you could have left you just MAY not have.” Some people refer to shitty 80 billable hour weeks as “learning opportunities.” That promotion to partner is right around the corner.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I was on a deal with Weil NYC. We had in person negotiations that went two days, all day and basically overnight. They made (in my mind) an army of juniors just sit around in their offices in case they were needed. Weirdly enough, at no point did we require their services. What a first year can do for an in-person meeting at 3 am is beyond me. What a dozen of them can do is commit billing fraud.

Well, if opposing counsel was physically camped out in your office and the negotiations were going on in person - weird, but I guess it happens - then certainly that would be a pretty darn good justification for requiring your side to also, y'know, physically stick around.

But it doesn't sound like this was your firm's policy to make folks stay in the office after hours, but rather more your firm responding to opposing counsel's decision to negotiate 'round the clock in person.

You misunderstand.

The in person meetings were at Weil’s offices in NYC. The relevant people were in the room - clients, bankers, partners, mid to senior associates.

There was literally zero reason or justification for Weil to tell it’s juniors to stay in the office. They did nothing and there was no universe in which we would need any of them to do anything. I honestly think they just keep them around as some weird form of hazing.


Anyway, even outside of NY I’ve worked with attorneys who get mad if the juniors go home before we do. They weren’t doing anything and we weren’t anticipating giving them work but it’s the PRINCIPLE

[nixy]

This is why it's important to live close to the office. If you can get home quickly, and keep working as soon as you get home, no one will even notice.

I feel like having to live close enough to the office that you can sneak out without others realizing is just another way to rationalize a fairly unpleasant situation. But it also sounds like different people in this thread are talking about firms with very different facetime expectations.

(Personally, I don’t think an all-nighter at home is that significant an improvement over an all-nighter at the office. Slightly more physically comfortable, maybe less convenient for access to stuff, and mostly I hate bringing work home. That’s pretty subjective, of course, but I feel like the focus on whether you have to physically be in the office for the all-nighter is slightly beside the point.)

[beepboopbeep]

I certainly preferred taking an all-nighter at home over being in the office -- and had a lot more of the former than the latter -- but it is indeed somewhat like preferring to have your toenails removed from left to right or vice versa.

I'm also not even sure it's about a general facetime expectation or being in corporate (though LLLLL's story certainly is). My firm was pretty lax about that stuff in general, and most weeks I worked from home at least one day, generally left by 6:30 or so, etc. That did improve the QOL. But I suspect that some in-office all-nighters are just going to be unavoidable in the long run in basically any biglaw firm, NY or not, lit or corporate. An individual litigator might avoid them for some time depending on who they work with, whether their cases are in a stage where fire drills are more common, etc. (Hint: avoid TROs.) But among the group of juniors in any given year it's happening at least some solid percentage of the time, from my experience and observing my peers.

[Lawl Shcool]

The uncertainty of not knowing when work is "over" is a shitty part about biglaw, especially until you are able to manage projects and delegate work. My justification has been that any job with a comparable level of pay/personal satisfaction is going to involve being equally as involved/available. Ideally I will find a job that I am legit passionate about and meshes better with my lifestyle in a copacetic way but until then, its really not that bad.

One point about all-nighters: If there is so much work to be done that it requires me staying up through/substantially all of the night, I am going to do most/all of that in the office, where I have the best resources. Free coffee, multiple screens, printers, etc. Without a legit home office, you're just sacrificing time you could be sleeping otherwise.

[Tenzen]

This is why you keep a pillow in the office.

No, literally. Before leaving biglaw, I worked with people who kept a pillow in the office. Just sleep there and set your email/phone to make a sound if from certain people. Or move closer to the continuum of leaving when you want, turning your phone off at a certain time, and see how well it works out based on the firm.

Should it be this way? Doesn't matter. It is.