Biglaw w kids - any positive stories?? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Midlevel V10 from earlier.

It is absolutely possible to be a good associate and a good parent, but it does take a lot of effort and help from others--I'm very fortunate in the latter. I love my family, and I like the work I do. Both require sacrifices at times, and my spouse and the attorneys I work for understand because many of the latter are in the same position (if we all want to have better lives outside of the firm, we understand that we have to cover for each other at times).

Here are some positive stories from me:
-I worked remotely on Halloween and took my kids trick or treating--nobody cared
-My youngest was sick recently and I stayed home with her--I was responsive (she slept most of the day), but when I needed to be with her, I was--nobody cared, I explained the situation
-I took my middle to a birthday party this past weekend and left my phone at home for a few hours--no one cared
-I've picked up my oldest from school at 3p during the week several times
-I'm generally around to see my two oldest for a few hours before bed, and I generally help my oldest with his homework (when he let's me); my youngest may or may not be asleep when I get home, but usually she's awake

To me, these are the things that matter. I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for.

I travel frequently and may be out of town for a night or two at most, and there are stretches where I'm working late because I have a lot going on, but, as I said earlier, there are times when I'm leaving the office at 430-5 for a week or so and I get to see them a lot.

Parenting with two working parents is difficult enough, and these challenges aren't unique to biglaw, but this job does present its own challenges. If you want to make it work, you can, but if not, that's fine--it's a very personal choice, and I don't begrudge anyone either way. My spouse and I frequently discuss my future, and for right now, the situation works--I see my family plenty, and I'm enjoying the work. If that changes, I'll make a decision then.

[eastcoast_iub]

A general observation about biglaw and work/life balance:

While there are situations that are just bad and inescapable, someone who does good work can afford to push back against the most extreme demands once established. This is especially true if you are not gunning for partner. If spending an hour or two with your family in the evening means sleeping 3 hours a night, that's extreme even by biglaw standards.

I'd also point out that biglaw is not a monolith- there's a world of difference between being a 2nd year V5 M&A associate in NYC and being an of Counsel in T&E or ERISA in a secondary market. If you value family life or relationships outside of work, I'd strongly advise against jobs like the former. Ideally, find a niche practice where you are an adviser to larger projects rather than core to them.

This is 100% true. Having worked in both M&A and specialist groups, I can attest to the difference between being a specialist advising on a discrete portion of a transaction vs. being on the front lines with the client in M&A. While you will still have plenty on your plate as a specialist and sometimes get e-mails on nights/weekends asking for things on short notice, those are generally things (like discrete markups or diligence questions) that can be handled relatively quickly (vs. M&A assignments which generally take much longer and will ruin an evening).

You also learn over time what is truly urgent and what can wait, and if you are a competent associate can create reasonable boundaries for yourself and remain employed.

[nixy]

Yikes. I grew up poor with both parents being shift workers, but seeing my parents for significant portions of time everyday was something I apparently took for granted. Anecdotal, but I remain best friends with my parents to this day and I don't think that'd be the case if I didn't see them as much growing up.

This isn't me saying being a parent in biglaw is impossible, I'm just responding to the comments implying that it doesn't matter much if you don't see your kids everyday and skype into important events.

I think this part of it is super subjective. My dad wasn’t in biglaw but worked long hours in a similar professional job and I didn’t see him much during the week and I remember him working in his study on weekends (not all day or anything but a few hours at a time). It was just normal to me and we still had a great relationship.

Now there a lot of reasons why this worked in my family (particularly that my mom stayed home), and it was before cell phones and the internet made constant availability possible so it’s probably harder/different now. So I’m not trying to say this is exactly what the OP will be dealing with. I’m only saying that there are lots and lots of different ways to parent and no one way is right. I totally get, too, not *wanting* to parent in the biglaw/my dad model, which is again super subjective.

So I don’t think that anyone’s relationship with their kids is *solely* about the percentage of time spent with them. For some people not seeing their kids (in person) every day is intolerable, for others it’s not. I don’t think the latter automatically means bad parenting.

[Anonymous User]

A general observation about biglaw and work/life balance:

While there are situations that are just bad and inescapable, someone who does good work can afford to push back against the most extreme demands once established. This is especially true if you are not gunning for partner. If spending an hour or two with your family in the evening means sleeping 3 hours a night, that's extreme even by biglaw standards.

I'd also point out that biglaw is not a monolith- there's a world of difference between being a 2nd year V5 M&A associate in NYC and being an of Counsel in T&E or ERISA in a secondary market. If you value family life or relationships outside of work, I'd strongly advise against jobs like the former. Ideally, find a niche practice where you are an adviser to larger projects rather than core to them.

This is 100% true. Having worked in both M&A and specialist groups, I can attest to the difference between being a specialist advising on a discrete portion of a transaction vs. being on the front lines with the client in M&A. While you will still have plenty on your plate as a specialist and sometimes get e-mails on nights/weekends asking for things on short notice, those are generally things (like discrete markups or diligence questions) that can be handled relatively quickly (vs. M&A assignments which generally take much longer and will ruin an evening).

You also learn over time what is truly urgent and what can wait, and if you are a competent associate can create reasonable boundaries for yourself and remain employed.

Agree with the above. I am a senior associate in a biglaw firm in a major, non-NYC market. I find that I have the flexibility I desire (for the time being, at least) to spend time with my family. The vast majority of nights and weekends (not nights OR weekends, and not simply for a few hours) are spent with my family. Once my kid goes to bed, I'm back online for a bit. However, I think it is much more difficult to have my arrangement as a junior associate. In most cases, you will be expected to prioritize your job over everything else, and when you start being the associate that can't work as many hours as the others because you want (reasonably) to spend time with your family, you will likely find that your junior-associate colleagues are surpassing you in the workplace. It's not personal, it's just that others have more time to sell and that will slowly put them ahead of you.

[TigerIsBack]

Just another point...

I grew up with a Dad that generally worked close to biglaw hours (and a mom who worked like 50 hour weeks mostly), but my Dad was around even less than some of the stories on here (would spend about 2 weeks per month on business trips, and this was before FaceTime, so I would literally not see him at all for 2 straight weeks). Even when he was home, he came home late and left earlyish (like 9am). This went on until I was about 10-12 years old.

That said, the main thing I remember about my Dad growing up, was that by the time I was in high school and playing sports every season, he almost never missed a game, unless he was out of town (which was like 2 days per month and he could usually control the dates if something important was happening). He still often had to get some work done from home that night, but he was present at the games (and never on the phone or reading email, but actually engaged). A lot of days if I went in to school late for any reason, he'd just work from home until I left and then drive me to school.

The point is, my Dad and I have been close my entire life and remain close now, and I look back and have nothing but appreciation for the long hours he put in when I was super young because it 100% gave me a better life and him putting in that time when I was younger meant he had more flexibility to control his schedule and come to my games when I was older (which is when I think it matters more if I had to choose between the 2).

[Anonymous User]

My two brothers and I have been very close to our parents for our entire lives despite not having a lot of face time. My parents worked biglaw+ hours and one spent more time on the road, often out of country, than at home.

Remembering our events, even though they didn't attend, better than my brothers and I could remember them went a long way to show they cared. Blocking off time ~10 days a year for trips, sometimes working in hotel lobbies in the middle of the night to catch up and sometimes giving up major deals showed they cared. Flying halfway around the world when one of us fell and broke an arm showed they cared. Asking us if everything is good if we don't message for more than a few days (my brothers and I are in our 30s now) shows they still care. Demanding to see pictures (though our addresses literally span 4 time zones now) all the time shows they still care.

Were there times when we wished they'd be around? Yeah, sure, the first day of elementary school came to mind but tons of kids around me (well, we were in dorms you know) also felt uneasy. Experiences like that forced us to be independent and be mentally resilient. Did we ever feel alone? No. Our parents always had our backs and I think most of our classmates felt the same way.

But the positives? They were able to afford CTY/IAAY (whatever Johns Hopkins calls it now) to get us ahead in school. Ship us off to Austria to learn the piano when we expressed an interest (we weren't even good yet). Spend a summer in Singapore and Taiwan to learn as much Chinese as we could (we're Asian Americans, though pretty far removed from first gen and none of us speak Chinese natively.) Got us the best equipment and coaching for any sport we cared to try, golf, tennis, baseball, rugby, and by far the most expensive of them all: sailing.

We also got to travel the world often, sometimes with the nanny in tow while my father worked. The experience broadened our horizons in ways that I don't believe are possible without significant financial resources.

I can tell you without a shadow of doubt in my mind that although I saw my parents, on average, maybe 10-20 hours a week, growing up, I never felt they were absent in my life. They were not physically there but I knew they meant it when they said they'd be there to support me when I needed it. And I cannot be more grateful they grinded so hard to provide me and my brothers with the childhood we had.

That's my experience as the child of someone who grew up with what many of you would consider absent parents.

[$$$$$$]

Love the stories people share of growing up filthy rich and still being ok and loving their parents ..... cool I guess? I'd love my parents too if they sent me around the world for tennis lessons and bought me everything I wanted.

[dabigchina]

Love the stories people share of growing up filthy rich and still being ok and loving their parents ..... cool I guess? I'd love my parents too if they sent me around the world for tennis lessons and bought me everything I wanted.

More power to them, but looking back, I'm glad my parents were around to do shit with me, even if we were dirt poor.

[Anonymous User]

My wife and I are both lawyers. She's still in biglaw, while I swapped to an in-house 9-5 when we had our first kid. She's lucky enough to have a team that is good about remote work and understanding with family emergencies.
She's still in biglaw, though, which means there are still a night or two most weeks when she can't make it home for bedtime. We always set up a video chat on those nights.
But she spends every morning with them before we all head out in the morning, and most evenings she's home for dinner and bedtime, even though she gets back online after that almost every night. We don't need the money exactly, as the big debt we have outstanding is just for our house, but she loves her job. Even more, she has a strong relationship with the kids and they love her.

If anything, the real question is "biglaw with kids and successful date nights?"

[AdieuCali]

Love the stories people share of growing up filthy rich and still being ok and loving their parents ..... cool I guess? I'd love my parents too if they sent me around the world for tennis lessons and bought me everything I wanted.

I mean that’s the heart of OP’s dilemma: how to be a good parent when you have more money than time. Regardless of whether they grew up wealthy or poor, biglaw parents are raising “rich kids.”

[blair.waldorf]

Doesn’t this depend a lot on market? NYC seems much harder than the major market I’m going to (not NYC/DC/Chicago)

[impactplayer]

I've got three kids under six years old and I'm non-equity partner at a V50 firm. A lot of it depends on seniority, firm culture, practice group, etc.

When I was a junior or midlevel, it was definitely tough and there were multiple days in a week where I wouldn't see my kids at night because I would get home too late. My group is a late starting group though, so I always got to see them in the morning, got them ready, took them to school, etc. It was a trade-off.

As I got my senior, I got more flexibility with my time and working remotely. If I knew I was going to have a long day, I would just work from home so I could take little breaks with the kids and get to put them to sleep. If they had an event that I wanted to go to, I would work from home those days as well. It really depends on whether your firm/practice group will support/allow that, but regardless, I had to put in the time to earn that right.

With where I am in my career now, my firm lets me come and go as I please as long as I get my work done, so my work/life balance is great now. And after being promoted, I don't have to adhere to some rigid hours requirement to get paid. As a result, I generally staff one or two juniors on everything that I am working on and I try to let them handle the bulk of the work and I'll review or take on the complex stuff directly. The benefit of that is someone other than me is always in the loop on everything, so if I need to step out for something family-related or go on a long vacation (e.g., two weeks), I don't have any issues doing that.

Today, I'm very happy with my work/life balance so there can be positive stories in biglaw. It really just depends on your particular facts and circumstances. Happy to discuss anything further. Good luck!

[nixy]

Love the stories people share of growing up filthy rich and still being ok and loving their parents ..... cool I guess? I'd love my parents too if they sent me around the world for tennis lessons and bought me everything I wanted.

I mean that’s the heart of OP’s dilemma: how to be a good parent when you have more money than time. Regardless of whether they grew up wealthy or poor, biglaw parents are raising “rich kids.”

Have you never heard "money can't buy me love"? Buying your kids stuff isn't a substitute for a good relationship.

[AdieuCali]

Love the stories people share of growing up filthy rich and still being ok and loving their parents ..... cool I guess? I'd love my parents too if they sent me around the world for tennis lessons and bought me everything I wanted.

I mean that’s the heart of OP’s dilemma: how to be a good parent when you have more money than time. Regardless of whether they grew up wealthy or poor, biglaw parents are raising “rich kids.”

Have you never heard "money can't buy me love"? Buying your kids stuff isn't a substitute for a good relationship.

Of course I’ve heard it, but I’ve personally never been able to put that proposition to the test. I was fortunate that as a kid, my parents had jobs that didn’t require long hours, but we never had nice vacations or things.

My assumption is that money is no substitute for family time, but there are several commenters in this thread whose experiences refute that position.

Edit: accidental anon

[nixy]

It's not money on its own (though no doubt it helps), it's money + commitment + care + interest in your life etc. People aren't saying, "I had a good relationship with my parents although I didn't see them much, because they threw money at me," they're saying that "I had a good relationship with my parents because I knew they cared and had my back, even if I didn't see them as often as some kids do." Again, I get that money makes it *easier* to do that, but plenty of rich kids don't love their parents even if their parents have bought them tennis lessons and bought them everything they wanted, because they were still otherwise shitty parents.

[AdieuCali]

It's not money on its own (though no doubt it helps), it's money + commitment + care + interest in your life etc. People aren't saying, "I had a good relationship with my parents although I didn't see them much, because they threw money at me," they're saying that "I had a good relationship with my parents because I knew they cared and had my back, even if I didn't see them as often as some kids do." Again, I get that money makes it *easier* to do that, but plenty of rich kids don't love their parents even if their parents have bought them tennis lessons and bought them everything they wanted, because they were still otherwise shitty parents.

Yes I think that’s the correct and more nuanced answer.

I was being overly reductive, but I was annoyed at the above anon’s comment about filthy rich kids. The OP’s question is how to be a successful parent in a high-paying, demanding job.

I thought Tiger and the international tennis player’s comments were useful in demonstrating how to create quality family experiences.

Most people I've encountered who grew up wealthy either have the good taste not to talk about it, are trust-fund Marxists in Twitter, or are totally clueless Don Jr.-types. So it was nice to hear some candid responses from people whose parents were able to cultivate strong family relationships even when they weren’t around as often as they’d like.

[Anonymous User]

“Filthy rich” anon with two brothers here.

"I had a good relationship with my parents because I knew they cared and had my back, even if I didn't see them as often as some kids do."

Thank you. This is exactly what I hoped to get across.

Again, I get that money makes it *easier* to do that, but plenty of rich kids don't love their parents even if their parents have bought them tennis lessons and bought them everything they wanted, because they were still otherwise shitty parents.

Plenty of parents that spend a lot of time with their kids are really shitty parents too.

To bring back to the OP.

You love your kid. You may not spend as much time as you’d like with him/her but be assured he/she will know you love him/her and your financial resources will make his/her life richer in ways you likely never imagined before.

You similarly will share experiences that few other parents will. I, as a teenager, wasn’t a big fan of nature trips my father was fond of but to this day some of my most vivid memories from that time of my life involves seeing some spectacular sights with my family.

I know it’s not the positive spin you were looking for. But I think, for your mental health, you need to recognize you are still a very good parent and you just need to find other ways to express your love other than just spending time.

[LBJ's Hair]

I agree with the general thrust of the posts some people are making in this thread: You're not gonna traumatize your children by seeing them for only 30 min M-F. I really only saw my father on weekends until high school. We weren't rich. His commute was just awful. One of my exes was basically raised by her grandparents---dad worked overseas, mom had rough hours at a hospital. Other friends went to boarding school. We're all happy, well-adjusted adults with good relationships with our parents.

If *you* want to see your kids for 2 hours every night most weeknights, because that's just like, something that you want to do for yourself, I totally understand. But if this is driven by some sort of fear that you'll like, do permanent emotional damage to them or w/e...wouldn't worry about.

(FWIW also understand concerns RE division of childbearing responsibilities between partners, which is its own separate issue.)