CSM v. DPW v. S&C v. STB v. Cleary Forum

[howdystopian]

Imagine working harder than everyone else in the legal profession and not even getting into HLS :/

[senorpalpatine]

OP here.

Sorry if I came off as a troll. I didn’t grow up wealthy and worked my way to a top 3 Ivy and CLS. It may annoy you, but don’t want to spend time working or speaking with people who didn’t have to work nearly as hard as I did or have the same credentials and grades. After interviewing, I believe that this sentiment is widely shared at Columbia and at top law firms by people with unblemished credentials.

Example: A few partners I socialized with at a callback drinks event explicitly said that nobody cares about law schools at U. Virginia, Michigan, Berkeley, Penn in New York City. Associates at Cleary and DPW also seem to be very aware of how the diminished Vault ranking is hurting their recruiting, and they are cringing about having more people from lesser schools like these than ever before.

I think I’m going to go with S&C or CSM. I get the impression you can move from one of those to DPW or Cleary but not the other way around. You guys could have commented on the relative quality of people and practices at these firms but instead you decided to troll and attack me.

How would you know that other people did not work as hard as you did?

Also, regarding "unblemished credentials," you yourself mentioned that your grades are in the high Stone range. Does that mean that you have "blemished" credentials as well? What would the Kent folks say about your grades then? *Gasps*

You will find that Cravath has a lot of folks from so-called "lower" law schools. S&C is slightly more selective in that regard so if that floats your boat, go to S&C.

Regarding quality of life - come on, a quick search on this forum will tell you that there isn't that much of a difference between the firms you listed. If you want nicer people, the general consensus is to go to DPW. If you want general corporate excellence, S&C might be the better option.

[cavalier1138]

Imagine working harder than everyone else in the legal profession and not even getting into HLS :/

Seriously. What a scrub.

[QContinuum]

Imagine working harder than everyone else in the legal profession and not even getting into HLS :/

Seriously. What a scrub.

Clearly OP needs a "self-divorce." They've been "failing" all life long. First they "only" got into a "top 3" Ivy (note, not #1 or #2) for undergrad. Then they fell further down the ranks for law school, going all the way down to #5. (What happened to becoming the EIC of the Yale Law Journal and clerking for CJ Roberts??) Adding insult to injury, despite being the hardest-working law student in the country, they weren't even able to earn Kent grades (let alone an "unblemished" 4.0). Finally, they struck out yet again by not getting a WLRK offer. How is OP able to look at themselves in the mirror every morning?

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Poor taste, OP. People are struggling to find work at every law school right now. Joking about which V10 to take is not funny, even if intended as satire. Do these people really exist? Sure, but let's not acknowledge them even in jest.

[QContinuum]

Poor taste, OP. People are struggling to find work at every law school right now. Joking about which V10 to take is not funny, even if intended as satire. Do these people really exist? Sure, but let's not acknowledge them even in jest.

It's not obviously enough satire that I feel comfortable banishing this to the Lounge at this point. But I certainly hope it's satire. It's kinda distressing to think this might be real.

I'm currently an associate at CSM, and while I obv haven't interacted with all of them, I can't imagine a partner saying this- it's quite possible you misunderstood (as improbable as that may be given your exceptional academic achievements), but they may have been saying that in their view all of those schools are EQUIVALENT, and therefore nobody cares who went where- we have many successful associates from all of these schools. I also attended CLS, and HIGHLY doubt your sentiment is "widely" shared. Then again my grades weren't perfect, so probably no reason to listen to the opinion of someone with "blemished" credentials.

Side point, if you were to use the term (although not sure why you would), I'd imagine someone with Kent would have "unblemished credentials"

I'm not a CSM associate, but the above is TCR. The prevailing view at CSM and peer firms is that once you're at the firm, where you went to school no longer matters. You've made it. You've been "deemed worthy," so to speak. No senior is going to make staffing decisions based on whether someone attended NYU or *gasp* Penn.

I'll concede that there are a very few V10 lawyers who are a bit snobbish about the top-of-their-class Brooklyn/Dozo grads at their firm. But even those folks aren't going to sneer at MVPB grads.

[ghostoftraynor]

Someone else said it in another thread, but to paraphrase, tls has gotten really bad at spotting flames.

OP, to the extent you are serious, why haven't you considered Debevoise?

[LaChusa2020]

OP here.

Sorry if I came off as a troll. I didn’t grow up wealthy and worked my way to a top 3 Ivy and CLS. It may annoy you, but don’t want to spend time working or speaking with people who didn’t have to work nearly as hard as I did or have the same credentials and grades. After interviewing, I believe that this sentiment is widely shared at Columbia and at top law firms by people with unblemished credentials.

Example: A few partners I socialized with at a callback drinks event explicitly said that nobody cares about law schools at U. Virginia, Michigan, Berkeley, Penn in New York City. Associates at Cleary and DPW also seem to be very aware of how the diminished Vault ranking is hurting their recruiting, and they are cringing about having more people from lesser schools like these than ever before.

I think I’m going to go with S&C or CSM. I get the impression you can move from one of those to DPW or Cleary but not the other way around. You guys could have commented on the relative quality of people and practices at these firms but instead you decided to troll and attack me.

Its great to go to a T6 but it is likely that whenever you choose to go, you’ll have peers and bosses and subordinates and clients who didn’t go to those schools. You’ll run into super smart and successful people from Penn, Cornell and Fordham on a daily basis in practice and they will smell your arrogance and superiority and they will not like you. And neither will your sane peers from CLS and even from “better” schools. Im friends with several Stanford and Yale grads who would never talk this way. It’s great you’ve done well in school but you’ve nothing in your legal career - you’re not even a lawyer. You haven’t been on one deal, worked on one real case, drafted a bench memo, spoken to a client... so a second year at a firm you consider bottom of the barrel is way more accomplished than you. You presumably did well in college and did well on the LSAT...that’s cool, but so did some people who had equally good scores went to “inferior” schools, will be your colleagues, and have zero debt right now. The fact you feel too good to work with them shows an extreme lack of maturity and perspective.

I work at a firm that is very grade selective, (even at CLS) and I promise you that if I got even a whiff of this attitude on an interviewee I wouldn’t give them a callback even if they were on a path to clerk for the Supreme Court. I tell you this for your own good— success in this profession is more about being liked by your classmates (and lots of other soft skills) than your GPA when you’re already at a great school like Columbia.

For your own sake, if not for the profession, don’t be this person.

[notinbiglaw]

OP, if you’re sincere, you are in for a very rude awakening.

You can’t assume people just went to the highest ranked schools they got into or that even the smartest kids end up with best grades. I even know two people personally that turned down Sullivan/WLRK to work elsewhere (one not in law at all, and for less than 100k a year. The other went to a regional firm paying close but not quite market. Both went to schools ranked higher than CLS.)

A lot of the smartest kids just don’t care about prestige, getting to top of the class, or into highest vault ranked firm because they know they will do well wherever they land.

If you talk to them as if you are better and smarter, they’ll just stare at you and think you got a serious case of Dunning Kruger.

[$$$$$$]

No offense OP - if you went to a top 3 undergrad and then ended up at law school in a booming economy to go work a corporate law job, you're a fucking idiot.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah as someone who made Kent 1L I’m pretty offended that some Stone loser thinks his credentials are unblemished. Smh. Stone is a pretty big blemish.

[beepboopbeep]

Someone else said it in another thread, but to paraphrase, tls has gotten really bad at spotting flames.

OP, to the extent you are serious, why haven't you considered Debevoise?

yea i'm gonna keep using this one

TLS has really declined at spotting obvious flames, huh

[Anonymous User]

Obvious troll but I believe CSM and DPW were tied for the largest classes last year at my “bottom” T-10 school

[QContinuum]

Alright, everyone, please consider this a general notice to refrain from launching personal attacks on other TLSers, however irritating or flat-out wrong they may be. I'd like to think we can dole out criticism - even harsh criticism - without sinking to the level of calling people "fucking idiots" or "losers."

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Sorry if I came off as a troll. I didn’t grow up wealthy and worked my way to a top 3 Ivy and CLS. It may annoy you, but don’t want to spend time working or speaking with people who didn’t have to work nearly as hard as I did or have the same credentials and grades. After interviewing, I believe that this sentiment is widely shared at Columbia and at top law firms by people with unblemished credentials.

Example: A few partners I socialized with at a callback drinks event explicitly said that nobody cares about law schools at U. Virginia, Michigan, Berkeley, Penn in New York City. Associates at Cleary and DPW also seem to be very aware of how the diminished Vault ranking is hurting their recruiting, and they are cringing about having more people from lesser schools like these than ever before.

I think I’m going to go with S&C or CSM. I get the impression you can move from one of those to DPW or Cleary but not the other way around. You guys could have commented on the relative quality of people and practices at these firms but instead you decided to troll and attack me.

I'm currently an associate at CSM, and while I obv haven't interacted with all of them, I can't imagine a partner saying this- it's quite possible you misunderstood (as improbable as that may be given your exceptional academic achievements), but they may have been saying that in their view all of those schools are EQUIVALENT, and therefore nobody cares who went where- we have many successful associates from all of these schools. I also attended CLS, and HIGHLY doubt your sentiment is "widely" shared. Then again my grades weren't perfect, so probably no reason to listen to the opinion of someone with "blemished" credentials.

Side point, if you were to use the term (although not sure why you would), I'd imagine someone with Kent would have "unblemished credentials"

Also a CLSer at one of the aforementioned firms who thinks OP's behavior is absurdly poor and not representative of the school in the least. But I have to push back on the idea that partners view Columbia as a peer of UVA, Michigan, Penn etc... All of these are great schools, but Columbia places triple the amount of people into all of the firms mentioned and the CLS representation in the partnership class is similarly outsized. I doubt that many partners believe that the lower T-14s don't matter. Even if they did they wouldn't share those thoughts with a rising 2L they don't know. But if I ask one of the partners at my firm who proudly sports ties laden with crowns if CLS is equivalent to Penn or Michigan, everyone knows what the answer is going to be.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Sorry if I came off as a troll. I didn’t grow up wealthy and worked my way to a top 3 Ivy and CLS. It may annoy you, but don’t want to spend time working or speaking with people who didn’t have to work nearly as hard as I did or have the same credentials and grades. After interviewing, I believe that this sentiment is widely shared at Columbia and at top law firms by people with unblemished credentials.

Example: A few partners I socialized with at a callback drinks event explicitly said that nobody cares about law schools at U. Virginia, Michigan, Berkeley, Penn in New York City. Associates at Cleary and DPW also seem to be very aware of how the diminished Vault ranking is hurting their recruiting, and they are cringing about having more people from lesser schools like these than ever before.

I think I’m going to go with S&C or CSM. I get the impression you can move from one of those to DPW or Cleary but not the other way around. You guys could have commented on the relative quality of people and practices at these firms but instead you decided to troll and attack me.

Don't come to CSM. We don't want you.

[inter-associate]

Wish I could be there the first time OP screws up an assignment for a partner/senior associate from Fordham.

[Anonymous User]

I turned down an offer at S&C for a lower ranked, regional firm. In part, OP, to avoid people like you. I'm happy with that decision.

[Wild Card]

I wish we'd stop trolling the troll. The correct response is Cravath.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Sorry if I came off as a troll. I didn’t grow up wealthy and worked my way to a top 3 Ivy and CLS. It may annoy you, but don’t want to spend time working or speaking with people who didn’t have to work nearly as hard as I did or have the same credentials and grades. After interviewing, I believe that this sentiment is widely shared at Columbia and at top law firms by people with unblemished credentials.

Example: A few partners I socialized with at a callback drinks event explicitly said that nobody cares about law schools at U. Virginia, Michigan, Berkeley, Penn in New York City. Associates at Cleary and DPW also seem to be very aware of how the diminished Vault ranking is hurting their recruiting, and they are cringing about having more people from lesser schools like these than ever before.

I think I’m going to go with S&C or CSM. I get the impression you can move from one of those to DPW or Cleary but not the other way around. You guys could have commented on the relative quality of people and practices at these firms but instead you decided to troll and attack me.

Don't come to CSM. We don't want you.

Seconded.

[Anonymous User]

I'm just chiming in to write that OP's views and personality won't go over well at S&C.

Remember that many partners at S&C---and other top firms---didn't go to Columbia or similar law schools. Some won't care what some pretentious junior associate thinks. But many will be offended if they catch wind that you look down on peers from less competitive law schools. As others have written, you have to make friends and be liked to succeed at a firm. Frankly, no one at the firms you're looking at will be impressed that you were named a "Stone" scholar, which means nothing to someone from, say, Harvard, Yale, or, yes, Brooklyn.

Harvard, Yale, and Princeton kids who didn't get into (or whose families could no longer foot the bill for) Harvard, Yale, or Stanford law school and had to slum it at Columbia or NYU are a dime a dozen at these firms. Once you join one of them, you'll be just one more kid in a class of around a hundred. So try to crack a smile and make friends.

[carsondalywashere]

I realize OP is likely a troll, but what is up with the fascination with these old white shoe firms listed in the thread when they are being outperformed financially by the “less prestigious” firms of the world like Kirkland and Latham? Are Columbia kids so rich they don’t care about making money?

[Anonymous User]

I realize OP is likely a troll, but what is up with the fascination with these old white shoe firms listed in the thread when they are being outperformed financially by the “less prestigious” firms of the world like Kirkland and Latham? Are Columbia kids so rich they don’t care about making money?

Even if you care about making money, the V10 (minus Wachtell) are all interchangeable, regardless of recent trends. All associates are making lockstep salaries and getting Cravath scale bonuses (with Kirkland offering a low to moderate percentage more to high billers). You're going to end up financially the same, considering you're not going to make equity partner. The market is changing, but none of the V10 look destined to really change much. It's going to take another financial crash to see a Shearman-like catastrophic fall from graces.

I'm at Kirkland, and I enjoy it, but that's because of the culture, not some rise in Vault rankings or our fantastic revenue. If you're getting offers from several top firms, just pick one based off their group strengths and the people/culture. You're going to get paid roughly the same everywhere (minus Wachtell), get top-of-the-market work, and you're going to work about the same amount everywhere (again, maybe, minus Wachtell).

[carsondalywashere]

I realize OP is likely a troll, but what is up with the fascination with these old white shoe firms listed in the thread when they are being outperformed financially by the “less prestigious” firms of the world like Kirkland and Latham? Are Columbia kids so rich they don’t care about making money?

Even if you care about making money, the V10 (minus Wachtell) are all interchangeable, regardless of recent trends. All associates are making lockstep salaries and getting Cravath scale bonuses (with Kirkland offering a low to moderate percentage more to high billers). You're going to end up financially the same, considering you're not going to make equity partner. The market is changing, but none of the V10 look destined to really change much. It's going to take another financial crash to see a Shearman-like catastrophic fall from graces.

I'm at Kirkland, and I enjoy it, but that's because of the culture, not some rise in Vault rankings or our fantastic revenue. If you're getting offers from several top firms, just pick one based off their group strengths and the people/culture. You're going to get paid roughly the same everywhere (minus Wachtell), get top-of-the-market work, and you're going to work about the same amount everywhere (again, maybe, minus Wachtell).

But OP is definitely making equity partner...hopefully he doesn’t have to dip out of the “V5” to do it lmao

[lawdude31]

As someone who made Stone 2L I am just happy to find that there is someone else who thinks that Stone is perfect.