2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released Forum

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legalpotato

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by legalpotato » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:06 am

SLS_AMG wrote:The Vault rankings have always been of dubious import, but they've truly outlived their usefulness with the publication of this list. Latham a top-5 firm?! Kirkland at 6?! The idea that either of those firms is "more prestigious" than Davis Polk, Simpson Thacher or Cleary Gottlieb is preposterous, unless prestige is somehow an analog for lower hiring standards, lower billable rates and lower desirability among recruits.

It's truly asinine that the critical mass of idiots voting in this poll have come to view having 1 billion offices, 2 billion lawyers and $10 billion in revenue as some measure of prestige, when by most any rational person's standards such levels of ubiquity and accessibility would indicate the opposite. I guess Latham, Kirkland and Skadden can continue their inexorable marches to the top of these farcical rankings. CSM, S&C, DPW, STB and CGSH will continue to fight over law school students, and I suppose LW, K&E and Skadden will continue fighting over their leftovers, regardless of what Vault says.
Some goood and true points here. But what is truly hilarious is this apparently Cleary associate thinking that Cleary is in the same class as SC or DPW or CSM, or even an actually underrated but prestigious firm like debevoise, or even Kirkland or Latham for that matter.

Like, I get being irritated if you work at SC, but all of this indignation over Cleary??? Just lol at how this Cleary person views himself/herself.

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by inter-associate » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:23 am

SLS_AMG wrote:The Vault rankings have always been of dubious import, but they've truly outlived their usefulness with the publication of this list. Latham a top-5 firm?! Kirkland at 6?! The idea that either of those firms is "more prestigious" than Davis Polk, Simpson Thacher or Cleary Gottlieb is preposterous, unless prestige is somehow an analog for lower hiring standards, lower billable rates and lower desirability among recruits.

It's truly asinine that the critical mass of idiots voting in this poll have come to view having 1 billion offices, 2 billion lawyers and $10 billion in revenue as some measure of prestige, when by most any rational person's standards such levels of ubiquity and accessibility would indicate the opposite. I guess Latham, Kirkland and Skadden can continue their inexorable marches to the top of these farcical rankings. CSM, S&C, DPW, STB and CGSH will continue to fight over law school students, and I suppose LW, K&E and Skadden will continue fighting over their leftovers, regardless of what Vault says.
A few thoughts to really get the kicking and screaming going:

First, prestige is in the eyes of the beholder. You can call yourself prestigious all day and all night, but if the world doesn't see you that way then you are just defining it differently. It shouldn't be that surprising that elite firms with a more visible global presence are becoming viewed as more prestigious. They perform well in a larger number of markets, so they get brand recognition from more lawyers that is reflected in the Vault rankings. The risers are also more profitable on a per partner basis and pay above market bonuses, which seem like relevant data points to distinguish between them and behemoth McDonald's style firms.

Second, a ranking is only a gauge for what it purports to measure. The Vault rankings are a guide to the pecking order of "prestige" based on surveys of law firm associates. Whether the traditional Wall Street firms are still viewed as the most prestigious on those terms is really up to those associates, regardless of if DPW or anyone else wants to accept it. In my opinion the whole concept is garbage - having worked at a few V-10 firms I see the world in terms of "elite" firms and all the rest (which firms are in the former category is debatable, but my view is that you know one when you see it). That said, my view does not change the results of a Vault survey.

Third, "prestige" does not equal selectivity. The former is subjective and illusory, while the latter is objectively measurable. If these were rankings based on selectivity the top 10 would look significantly different - and I am pretty sure any firm with a big incoming class (including DPW, STB, etc.) would sit behind the above market paying Wachtells and litigation shops of the world.

Fourth, while any given year's Vault rankings may not be that definitive (does 4 vs. 6 really matter in terms of quality of experience or exit options), they do show trends over time that are worth noting. Shearman & Sterling's ongoing fall from the ranks of the elite comes to mind. 20 years ago one may have questioned whether they should be number 8 or number 12, but today there is little question that S&S is not the firm it was 20 years ago. The trend I'm seeing today is not a cataclysmic fall of DPW, it is that LW and K&E continue to rise. Whether that trend continues remains to be seen, but it does not suggest to me in the slightest that anything has changed at DPW.

Finally, completely agree that students shouldn't be making decisions based on Vault rankings. Other than helping identify the top 10 to 15 firms for students that have no idea what they are looking for other than a solid start to their career they are just a useless medium for self-gratification (and a useful way to tick off DPW associates apparently).

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rahulg91

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by rahulg91 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:32 am

inter-associate wrote:
SLS_AMG wrote:The Vault rankings have always been of dubious import, but they've truly outlived their usefulness with the publication of this list. Latham a top-5 firm?! Kirkland at 6?! The idea that either of those firms is "more prestigious" than Davis Polk, Simpson Thacher or Cleary Gottlieb is preposterous, unless prestige is somehow an analog for lower hiring standards, lower billable rates and lower desirability among recruits.

It's truly asinine that the critical mass of idiots voting in this poll have come to view having 1 billion offices, 2 billion lawyers and $10 billion in revenue as some measure of prestige, when by most any rational person's standards such levels of ubiquity and accessibility would indicate the opposite. I guess Latham, Kirkland and Skadden can continue their inexorable marches to the top of these farcical rankings. CSM, S&C, DPW, STB and CGSH will continue to fight over law school students, and I suppose LW, K&E and Skadden will continue fighting over their leftovers, regardless of what Vault says.
The risers are also more profitable on a per partner basis and pay above market bonuses, which seem like relevant data points to distinguish between them and behemoth McDonald's style firms.
I think this part is pretty important actually. Law students should not look to Vault, it's a meaningless metric of what associates (mostly east coast associates) think of the hierarchy of corporate practices. Looking at firm financial health though, might not be a terrible piece of information to consider in evaluating firms.

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ghostoftraynor

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by ghostoftraynor » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:35 am

Any ranking that doesn't have Debevoise in top ten is obviously busted.

Still, you have to feel a little bad for the DPW associates. Before yesterday, as they crawled to their hovel offices, weighed down by their ankle monitors, at least they knew they were more prestigious than those pesky upstarts at Latham and Kirkland.

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Man from Nantucket

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by Man from Nantucket » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:16 pm

ghostoftraynor wrote:Any ranking that doesn't have Debevoise in top ten is obviously busted.

Still, you have to feel a little bad for the DPW associates. Before yesterday, as they crawled to their hovel offices, weighed down by their ankle monitors, at least they knew they were more prestigious than those pesky upstarts at Latham and Kirkland.
All those poor DPW associates, heading home from their hovels, rubbing their ankle monitors as they lie in bed, taking solace in the fact that they’re the 5th most prestigious law firm, only to wake up and find out they’ve dropped to 6th. Truly devastating.

Agreed on the Debevoise point though.
Last edited by QContinuum on Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LaLiLuLeLo

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by LaLiLuLeLo » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:22 pm

is a firm really that prestigious if it can’t even match some scrappy EC/vc firm’s bonuses?

ghostoftraynor

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by ghostoftraynor » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:25 pm

Debevoise prestige is something only a Columbia grad could truly comprehend.

QContinuum

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by QContinuum » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:33 pm

ghostoftraynor wrote:Debevoise prestige is something only a Yale/Columbia grad could truly comprehend.
FTFY.

icansortofmath

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by icansortofmath » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:40 pm

I felt the prestige when the guy sitting in OCI suite corrected my pronunciation and refused to give me a screener.

Actually still bitter at that.

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Man from Nantucket

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by Man from Nantucket » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:45 pm

Man from Nantucket wrote:
ghostoftraynor wrote:Any ranking that doesn't have Debevoise in top ten is obviously busted.

Still, you have to feel a little bad for the DPW associates. Before yesterday, as they crawled to their hovel offices, weighed down by their ankle monitors, at least they knew they were more prestigious than those pesky upstarts at Latham and Kirkland.
All those poor DPW associates, heading home from their hovels, rubbing their ankle monitors as they lie in bed, taking solace in the fact that they’re the 5th most prestigious law firm, only to wake up and find out they’ve dropped to 6th. Truly devastating.

Agreed on the Debevoise point though.
Sorry, didn’t mean to post this anon.

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cavalier1138

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:46 pm

icansortofmath wrote:I felt the prestige when the guy sitting in OCI suite corrected my pronunciation and refused to give me a screener.

Actually still bitter at that.
What did you say? Debe-vwahz?

icansortofmath

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by icansortofmath » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:02 pm

I think it came out more like De-be-vwahhhh as I hesitated on the “se”.

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Man from Nantucket

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by Man from Nantucket » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:07 pm

Just picturing all those alpha Yale / Columbia students rolling over to the DPW suite from the Debevoise suite, asking questions about David Pork and Wadwell and getting callbacks because DPW is so desperate to fill their tiny offices with their plummeting prestige.

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by QContinuum » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:09 pm

icansortofmath wrote:I think it came out more like De-be-vwahhhh as I hesitated on the “se”.
I always thought De-be-vwahhhh was how it was supposed to be pronounced! Sounds more sophisticated that way too. I was actually a bit disappointed to find out the "s" wasn't silent.

oblig.lawl.ref

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by oblig.lawl.ref » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:24 pm

inter-associate wrote:
SLS_AMG wrote:The Vault rankings have always been of dubious import, but they've truly outlived their usefulness with the publication of this list. Latham a top-5 firm?! Kirkland at 6?! The idea that either of those firms is "more prestigious" than Davis Polk, Simpson Thacher or Cleary Gottlieb is preposterous, unless prestige is somehow an analog for lower hiring standards, lower billable rates and lower desirability among recruits.

It's truly asinine that the critical mass of idiots voting in this poll have come to view having 1 billion offices, 2 billion lawyers and $10 billion in revenue as some measure of prestige, when by most any rational person's standards such levels of ubiquity and accessibility would indicate the opposite. I guess Latham, Kirkland and Skadden can continue their inexorable marches to the top of these farcical rankings. CSM, S&C, DPW, STB and CGSH will continue to fight over law school students, and I suppose LW, K&E and Skadden will continue fighting over their leftovers, regardless of what Vault says.
A few thoughts to really get the kicking and screaming going:

First, prestige is in the eyes of the beholder. You can call yourself prestigious all day and all night, but if the world doesn't see you that way then you are just defining it differently. It shouldn't be that surprising that elite firms with a more visible global presence are becoming viewed as more prestigious. They perform well in a larger number of markets, so they get brand recognition from more lawyers that is reflected in the Vault rankings. The risers are also more profitable on a per partner basis and pay above market bonuses, which seem like relevant data points to distinguish between them and behemoth McDonald's style firms.
Descriptively, I think the bolded is mostly what explains the vault rankings of K&E and L&W. They have a large footprint and compete well in a large number of markets and practice areas, unlike most other firms who either only compete in a few markets or do not compete well in a large number of markets. Personally, I don't think this is the correct approximation of "prestige" but don't really care that much what vault says. Junior associates and even many midlevels have a pretty weak understanding of the national legal market in my experience.

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by yooobagz » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:31 pm

I'm not very knowledgeable about the reputations of these upper-tier firms. I'm familiar with the whole "Lathaming" thing during the recession, but what's the knock against K&E? I was under the impression they were pretty good, despite the reputation of particularly long hours/many hours billed by associates (and the market $$$hatering bonuses).

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:43 pm

icansortofmath wrote:I think it came out more like De-be-vwahhhh as I hesitated on the “se”.
I think the issue was that you hesitated. If you aggressively mispronounce firm names, it's a display of dominance over the interviewer. Successful use of this tactic forces them to acknowledge you as the alpha and yield their spot in the firm to you. For example:

CRAY-vath
Watch-TEEL
Dah-VEES Bulk
Dee-bee-VOICE
Seyem-puh-SOON THAYTCH-eer

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by Wild Card » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:00 pm

inter-associate wrote:Shearman & Sterling's ongoing fall from the ranks of the elite comes to mind. 20 years ago one may have questioned whether they should be number 8 or number 12, but today there is little question that S&S is not the firm it was 20 years ago.
This year, Shearman's M&A team handled what will be the biggest deal of 2019, as well as the biggest spinoff in history. Its Capital Markets group won some deal team of the year award from the American Lawyer. If Vault is truly some proxy for strength of corporate practice, I'm shocked Shearman does so poorly.

Fried Frank and Willkie should be doing better too.

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:31 pm

The firm that was ranked 23rd when I accepted their summer associate offer is now ranked 44th lol. No wonder why in light of the way the firm treats its associates.

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:48 pm

Wild Card wrote:
inter-associate wrote:Shearman & Sterling's ongoing fall from the ranks of the elite comes to mind. 20 years ago one may have questioned whether they should be number 8 or number 12, but today there is little question that S&S is not the firm it was 20 years ago.
This year, Shearman's M&A team handled what will be the biggest deal of 2019, as well as the biggest spinoff in history. Its Capital Markets group won some deal team of the year award from the American Lawyer. If Vault is truly some proxy for strength of corporate practice, I'm shocked Shearman does so poorly.

Fried Frank and Willkie should be doing better too.
Vault is all about perception and reputation among lawyers. If a firm treats its associates like shit, that gets leaked out to friends and friends of friends and the firm's reputation falls. Perception is what affects vault rankings, not some marketing bullshit that the firm puts on their website.

For assessing how an M&A group is doing, you should look at M&A league tables For assessing profitability, you look at profits per partner and revenue per lawyer. For assessing how an M&A group is viewed by clients, you look at Chambers.

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by TestAccount12345 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:53 pm

yooobagz wrote:I'm not very knowledgeable about the reputations of these upper-tier firms. I'm familiar with the whole "Lathaming" thing during the recession, but what's the knock against K&E? I was under the impression they were pretty good, despite the reputation of particularly long hours/many hours billed by associates (and the market $$$hatering bonuses).
*Shrug*

K&E does seem to get a lot of hate that doesn't reflect the reality of working there. I truly don't think the hours or conditions are any worse than other V10 firms (and in some cases better), from what I've been able to gather. My theory is that K&E is the "bad guy" for most other elite firms, because they are gobbling up market share and talent left and right.... and those clients and associates/partners have to be stolen from somewhere. K&E is also pretty aggressive externally, whether in negotiation or litigation, so I could see that annoying opposing counsel. But internally it's quite positive, or at least no worse than its peer firms. I dunno, it's just one of those places that people love to hate.

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by Pulsar » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:12 pm

Not sure NYC firms can really complain about small swings in Vault rankings. They benefit from Vault's historic favoring of elite corporate practices. But some of those firms aren't as top-notch in other practices (lit, IP), and it's hard to know where they would fall if there were any way to account for that.

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by QContinuum » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:15 pm

yooobagz wrote:I'm not very knowledgeable about the reputations of these upper-tier firms. I'm familiar with the whole "Lathaming" thing during the recession, but what's the knock against K&E? I was under the impression they were pretty good, despite the reputation of particularly long hours/many hours billed by associates (and the market $$$hatering bonuses).
Kirkland's a great firm. It's successful, it's expanding, it pays its associates very well, there've never been any rumblings about anything "wrong" with the firm in terms of culture. It's unique in the sense that it seems to take competitiveness/aggressiveness to the max, kind of like unrestrained capitalism. (There are other firms with competitive cultures, of course, but generally not to the same extent as K&E, from what I understand.) But that doesn't mean K&E's bad by any stretch - it just means it's not for everyone (and of course, no firm's the right fit for everyone). It's just that TLSers seem to predominantly not have that personality type, so K&E gets a bit undersold on these fora.

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by Wild Card » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote: Vault is all about perception and reputation among lawyers. If a firm treats its associates like shit, that gets leaked out to friends and friends of friends and the firm's reputation falls. Perception is what affects vault rankings, not some marketing bullshit that the firm puts on their website.
What does it mean to be treated like shit? I heard that Cadwalader once had a screamer partner. I heard that a partner at Skadden liked throwing staplers at people. But these are bad apples from years if not decades ago. Are there really firms with toxic cultures?

I hear Paul Hastings thrown around here a lot, but does a toxic work environment even entail?

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Re: 2020 Vault Law Firm Rankings Released

Post by icansortofmath » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:59 pm

Multiple Cadwalader summers and former summers (some current associates at the time) from both DC and NYC offices, me not to go there if at all possible.

It was super jarring because nobody else went past the equivalent of “meh, it’s biglaw” about their firms and most had good things to say about their summer experiences.

It was just so jarring I never considered that firm. I still don’t know what happened/was happening between 2014 and 2017 or so to make the place so toxic to new/summer associates.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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