When does employment begin after Summer Associate position? Forum

[NAMLEX]

Not really what you asked, but would you consider doing a JD/LLM? That would probably put you back to having 3 years of law school and a shot at doing the normal OCI rounds (not sure if it opens another can of worms on LLM OCI vs JD OCI). Might be a better way than simply hanging around an extra semester or taking only 1 semester of advanced standing when you could get two.

Best of luck OP.

Thanks for your comment - it's a good call. I have considered dual/joint degree options but if I pursued it I would probably be inclined to look for a degree in a subject other than law.

[NAMLEX]

Obviously he should check on the state bar requirements, but if the degree-granting school awards advanced standing it sounds like it's basically accepting foreign credits as the equivalent of transfer credits, so ending up with the equivalent of three years. I find it hard to think schools would offer the advanced standing to international students if people granted that status wouldn't be able to take the bar.

I agree with the concerns to the extent that it seems unrealistic both to do the advanced standing and try to follow the traditional timeline for biglaw hiring. But I think people have made clear that's probably not going to work very well and that if the OP wants to do OCI after a year of classes (rather than before), the 3 year JD program makes more sense than advanced standing.

Thanks for your comment.

Yes, as I stated in my original post I am eligible to sit the NY bar exam based on my foreign legal education (I have already applied for an evaluation and have been approved).

[NAMLEX]

It’s still confusing me as to why you are asking School specific questions hen you haven’t applied or been accepted. I don’t recall if you’ve even taken the LSAT.
All I recall is you seem very determined to be a special case for some reason. I understand not wanting to pay more tuition and graduating early, but you seem to be setting up a lot of unnecessary hoops.
You don’t even know you will be accepted into any of these school.
I don’t get it.

I second the above. Our advice has always been to seek to be the rule, not the exception to the rule. It's generally wise to take the path of least resistance whenever possible. That's why, for example, we advise folks wanting BigLaw to retake the LSAT until they can be admitted to a T13 - instead of struggling to be the exception to the rule at a T2 or T3 law school. Similarly, to the extent OP is already investing in a J.D. (instead of simply doing a 1-year LL.M., which would be the path to take if saving tuition money was the paramount consideration), it really would just make sense to bite the bullet and do a "full," traditional 3-year J.D.

Also, I haven't looked into this at all but if OP does a 2-year J.D. using his advanced standing foreign credits, would that have any adverse impact on his eligibility for bar admissions? Many states have fairly strict requirements and this would be a serious concern for me if I were in OP's shoes.

Thank you for your comments.

I have taken on board what you say and will certainly exercise due caution of the risks a two-year schedule may pose to my recruitment cycle.

Having said that, I'm still not entirely convinced it would necessarily be so much of a problem as some people have suggested it would be. I'm still unclear as to what precisely would be the issue for an employer.

For example, if I were to OCI after the first year and secure a summer position and then graduate the following fall and then did something else for 9 months until the job starts, it's conceivable to me at least that that wouldn't necessarily be a problem for an employer. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a problem, it may very well be a significant problem, but nobody has of yet spelled out exactly what that problem might be other than claiming it's never been done like that therefore it cannot be done like that. I do not intend to bend the rules - indeed I am happy and willing to take the burden myself (i.e. to wait 9 months for the job to start!) in efforts to comply with the employers normal recruitment timeline.

In any case I agree with those who have stressed that only by speaking to a schools careers adviser once admitted will I be able to get a definitive answer.

[Npret]

Where exactly does Harvard,for example, say they give advanced standing? I haven’t found it anywhere.

https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissio ... s/#faq-1-5

[NAMLEX]

For example, if I were to OCI after the first year and secure a summer position and then graduate the following fall

That might be a bit confusing: what I meant was to OCI after one year, do a summer position the following summer and then graduate during the fall after the summer position.

[Npret]

Obviously he should check on the state bar requirements, but if the degree-granting school awards advanced standing it sounds like it's basically accepting foreign credits as the equivalent of transfer credits, so ending up with the equivalent of three years. I find it hard to think schools would offer the advanced standing to international students if people granted that status wouldn't be able to take the bar.

I agree with the concerns to the extent that it seems unrealistic both to do the advanced standing and try to follow the traditional timeline for biglaw hiring. But I think people have made clear that's probably not going to work very well and that if the OP wants to do OCI after a year of classes (rather than before), the 3 year JD program makes more sense than advanced standing.

Thanks for your comment.

Yes, as I stated in my original post I am eligible to sit the NY bar exam based on my foreign legal education (I have already applied for an evaluation and have been approved).

If you already qualify for the bar exam, why are you going to law school again? Is it simply to maximize your chance of getting a biglaw job? All of your questions seemed geared towards getting a biglaw job on your timetable.

[Npret]

It’s still confusing me as to why you are asking School specific questions hen you haven’t applied or been accepted. I don’t recall if you’ve even taken the LSAT.
All I recall is you seem very determined to be a special case for some reason. I understand not wanting to pay more tuition and graduating early, but you seem to be setting up a lot of unnecessary hoops.
You don’t even know you will be accepted into any of these school.
I don’t get it.

I second the above. Our advice has always been to seek to be the rule, not the exception to the rule. It's generally wise to take the path of least resistance whenever possible. That's why, for example, we advise folks wanting BigLaw to retake the LSAT until they can be admitted to a T13 - instead of struggling to be the exception to the rule at a T2 or T3 law school. Similarly, to the extent OP is already investing in a J.D. (instead of simply doing a 1-year LL.M., which would be the path to take if saving tuition money was the paramount consideration), it really would just make sense to bite the bullet and do a "full," traditional 3-year J.D.

Also, I haven't looked into this at all but if OP does a 2-year J.D. using his advanced standing foreign credits, would that have any adverse impact on his eligibility for bar admissions? Many states have fairly strict requirements and this would be a serious concern for me if I were in OP's shoes.

Thank you for your comments.

I have taken on board what you say and will certainly exercise due caution of the risks a two-year schedule may pose to my recruitment cycle.

Having said that, I'm still not entirely convinced it would necessarily be so much of a problem as some people have suggested it would be. I'm still unclear as to what precisely would be the issue for an employer.

For example, if I were to OCI after the first year and secure a summer position and then graduate the following fall and then did something else for 9 months until the job starts, it's conceivable to me at least that that wouldn't necessarily be a problem for an employer. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a problem, it may very well be a significant problem, but nobody has of yet spelled out exactly what that problem might be other than claiming it's never been done like that therefore it cannot be done like that. I do not intend to bend the rules - indeed I am happy and willing to take the burden myself (i.e. to wait 9 months for the job to start!) in efforts to comply with the employers normal recruitment timeline.

In any case I agree with those who have stressed that only by speaking to a schools careers adviser once admitted will I be able to get a definitive answer.

We’ve told you repeatedly why it’s an issue. Maybe you’re a superstar who can do things as you want and convince a firm you’re happy to do something else for 9 months while waiting for a job. As an interviewer that would be very strange to me. Your entire plan is strange. We seem unable to convince you.

Perhaps you should talk to some lawyers at firms before you decide to follow this route. They will know more about hiring than career services. Career services can advise you as to their OCI policies- which are strict - now. You don’t have to wait to get answers. Just call or email and ask about the rules for attending OCI.

[NAMLEX]

Where exactly does Harvard,for example, say they give advanced standing? I haven’t found it anywhere.

https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissio ... s/#faq-1-5

You're right, I can't find anything either. I can only see general guidelines on transfer credits. I assure you that there is info on this on the websites of all the schools I mentioned except, apparently, Harvard. I noticed recently that Yale exceptionally permit LLM holders to do their JD in two years (perhaps I mixed them up or maybe Harvard has removed information on this from their website). Incidentally I'm not considering applying to either of those schools.

It's important to remember that these really are uncommon and exceptional provisions. The vast majority of american JD candidates haven't done a foreign law degree and the vast majority of foreign educated lawyers usually just do LLMs if they want a degree from a US law school.

Provisions on accepting credits as advanced standing are exercised, as far as I understand, on a rare and case by case basis.

[Npret]

Where exactly does Harvard,for example, say they give advanced standing? I haven’t found it anywhere.

https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissio ... s/#faq-1-5

You're right, I can't find anything either. I can only see general guidelines on transfer credits. I assure you that there is info on this on the websites of all the schools I mentioned except, apparently, Harvard. I noticed recently that Yale exceptionally permit LLM holders to do their JD in two years (perhaps I mixed them up or maybe Harvard has removed information on this from their website). Incidentally I'm not considering applying to either of those schools.

It's important to remember that these really are uncommon and exceptional provisions. The vast majority of american JD candidates haven't done a foreign law degree and the vast majority of foreign educated lawyers usually just do LLMs if they want a degree from a US law school.

Provisions on accepting credits as advanced standing are exercised, as far as I understand, on a rare and case by case basis.

So why do you want a JD instead of LL.M.? It’s not important for me to know these are exceptional. It’s important for you to know that and understand why so very few people take the path you want to take?

[Anonymous User]

(Anon because personal details)

OP, I was in the same boat as you. I got advanced standing and did my JD in 2 years at a T25. My school let me do OCI the summer before I started my 1L year. Needless to say, it was hard to explain to interviewers why I didn’t have any grades yet. I managed to land a SA position at a V100 and I got an offer to return as a first-year associate after graduation.

You have to listen to what the other posters said before, they are right. There is no way an employer would just hire you as a summer after you graduated. With a 2 year timeline, you need to land a SA position during your first year for the only summer you have while at school. I know a few people that had advanced standing as well, and those who landed biglaw did the same thing I did.

Honestly, if you can do the regular 3-year program, that’s what you should do. For me, it worked out, but it was very hard. It was a combination of very niche skills that were relevant to the practice I’m joining + understanding how crucial it was to land a SA and how biglaw works before I even started school (thanks to TLS) + luck.

Good luck!

[Npret]

FYI OP - Chicago requires students looking for advanced standing to apply as transfers where you will be competing with all the other transfer applicants.

https://www.law.uchicago.edu/internationalstudents

Duke and Penn seem like regular applications are required.

https://law.duke.edu/curriculum/pdf/Tra ... losure.pdf Duke has odd wording

https://www.law.upenn.edu/admissions/jd ... ernational

[NAMLEX]

(Anon because personal details)

OP, I was in the same boat as you. I got advanced standing and did my JD in 2 years at a T25. My school let me do OCI the summer before I started my 1L year. Needless to say, it was hard to explain to interviewers why I didn’t have any grades yet. I managed to land a SA position at a V100 and I got an offer to return as a first-year associate after graduation.

You have to listen to what the other posters said before, they are right. There is no way an employer would just hire you as a summer after you graduated. With a 2 year timeline, you need to land a SA position during your first year for the only summer you have while at school. I know a few people that had advanced standing as well, and those who landed biglaw did the same thing I did.

Honestly, if you can do the regular 3-year program, that’s what you should do. For me, it worked out, but it was very hard. It was a combination of very niche skills that were relevant to the practice I’m joining + understanding how crucial it was to land a SA and how biglaw works before I even started school (thanks to TLS) + luck.

Good luck!

Thanks so much for sharing these helpful insights, I think you are the first person with firsthand experience to comment.

I am reluctant to OCI before 1L for the very reasons you highlight. I'd be interested to know if you applied to a designated 2-year program or whether you applied to a regular 3-year program and petitioned for credits post admission? I'm curious only because I thought that one possible compromise might be to apply to a 3-year program and petition for a single semester of credit rather than two. It would save some money at least and would give me two summers instead of one.

[NAMLEX]

FYI OP - Chicago requires students looking for advanced standing to apply as transfers where you will be competing with all the other transfer applicants.

https://www.law.uchicago.edu/internationalstudents

Duke and Penn seem like regular applications are required.

https://law.duke.edu/curriculum/pdf/Tra ... losure.pdf Duke has odd wording

https://www.law.upenn.edu/admissions/jd ... ernational

Thank you. Yes, that's right, Chicago requests that you apply in the Spring transfer cycle - they have ED and RD transfer deadlines.

[Npret]

You’re welcome. I realize my posts can sound abrupt and harsh but my goal is to help. I was curious about advanced standing so I looked it up.

[NAMLEX]

You’re welcome. I realize my posts can sound abrupt and harsh but my goal is to help. I was curious about advanced standing so I looked it up.

You can be slightly abrupt, certainly, but I appreciate you just the way you are.

Perhaps you can offer some final help on the following:

I am completely with you that it is not possible to alter the OCI/recruitment timeline in order to make a 2-year JD more convenient. However, is there any other reason why OCI after one year wouldn't work even if I was willing to wait the extra months until the job started?

I am working on a basic assumption here that employers are looking for various things: they want good grades; they want to like your CV; they want you to show up on time for your interview; they want to like you at interview; they want you to make a good impression during your summer associate position; they want you to graduate; they want you to get your license; they want you to show for work at the time agreed upon.

Since graduation ceremonies are typically held numerous times a year, I don't see an obvious reason why it would matter if a particular candidate graduates during the fall after a summer associate position. Am I missing something obvious? I wouldn't ask for any special treatment, I would be following the same timeline as rest of the incoming class of associates, the only difference would be that I would graduate in the fall and the rest of the class would graduate the following summer.

[Anonymous User]

(...)

Thanks so much for sharing these helpful insights, I think you are the first person with firsthand experience to comment.

I am reluctant to OCI before 1L for the very reasons you highlight. I'd be interested to know if you applied to a designated 2-year program or whether you applied to a regular 3-year program and petitioned for credits post admission? I'm curious only because I thought that one possible compromise might be to apply to a 3-year program and petition for a single semester of credit rather than two. It would save some money at least and would give me two summers instead of one.

I don’t see the point of having only one semester of credit other than saving money. What you need to understand is that you don’t want to be in a position where you have to explain yourself to potential employers. I had to explain the whole “JD in 2 years” several times and it’s a pain. People don’t know a lot about it, they might assume it’s a different degree similar to an LLM (which I highly advise against for other reasons). I don’t know how many times I had to say that I was getting a regular JD. In short, I had to do the regular 1L coursework and all the bar-required classes in my 2L year, so I didn’t take a lot of electives.

Remember that before getting an interview, HR will be going over your résumé and trying to figure out why your expected graduation date is 2021 when you started your JD in 2019. They need to be able to put you in a box and that box is determined by your class year.

One thing to consider is how much (relevant) work experience you have. All the people I know (myself included) that had advanced standing and managed to land biglaw had extensive work experience as attorneys. If you just graduated from law school in your home country and have very little experience, you will not benefit from the advanced standing.

Of course, there are always exceptions. I’m glad it worked out for me, but if I had to do it again I think the regular 3-year program would have been way less risky.

[NAMLEX]

(...)

Thanks so much for sharing these helpful insights, I think you are the first person with firsthand experience to comment.

I am reluctant to OCI before 1L for the very reasons you highlight. I'd be interested to know if you applied to a designated 2-year program or whether you applied to a regular 3-year program and petitioned for credits post admission? I'm curious only because I thought that one possible compromise might be to apply to a 3-year program and petition for a single semester of credit rather than two. It would save some money at least and would give me two summers instead of one.

I don’t see the point of having only one semester of credit other than saving money. What you need to understand is that you don’t want to be in a position where you have to explain yourself to potential employers. I had to explain the whole “JD in 2 years” several times and it’s a pain. People don’t know a lot about it, they might assume it’s a different degree similar to an LLM (which I highly advise against for other reasons). I don’t know how many times I had to say that I was getting a regular JD. In short, I had to do the regular 1L coursework and all the bar-required classes in my 2L year, so I didn’t take a lot of electives.

Remember that before getting an interview, HR will be going over your résumé and trying to figure out why your expected graduation date is 2021 when you started your JD in 2019. They need to be able to put you in a box and that box is determined by your class year.

One thing to consider is how much (relevant) work experience you have. All the people I know (myself included) that had advanced standing and managed to land biglaw had extensive work experience as attorneys. If you just graduated from law school in your home country and have very little experience, you will not benefit from the advanced standing.

Of course, there are always exceptions. I’m glad it worked out for me, but if I had to do it again I think the regular 3-year program would have been way less risky.

Thanks again for your input. It's very useful.

I think it would be sensible to apply to a regular 3-year program and explore my options further once admitted. I think it's unlikely that I would end up petitioning for a single semesters worth of credit. I'm inclined to agree that advanced standing would only be worth it for two semesters. If I were to successfully petition for two semesters that might mean I'm in a situation whereby I secure a summer position but am able to graduate the following fall semester.

I appreciate your calls for caution. I'll tread lightly - I certainly don't want to be throwing any spanners/wrenches.

[QContinuum]

Obviously he should check on the state bar requirements, but if the degree-granting school awards advanced standing it sounds like it's basically accepting foreign credits as the equivalent of transfer credits, so ending up with the equivalent of three years. I find it hard to think schools would offer the advanced standing to international students if people granted that status wouldn't be able to take the bar.

I agree with the concerns to the extent that it seems unrealistic both to do the advanced standing and try to follow the traditional timeline for biglaw hiring. But I think people have made clear that's probably not going to work very well and that if the OP wants to do OCI after a year of classes (rather than before), the 3 year JD program makes more sense than advanced standing.

Thanks for your comment.

Yes, as I stated in my original post I am eligible to sit the NY bar exam based on my foreign legal education (I have already applied for an evaluation and have been approved).

I never doubted OP would be eligible to sit the NY bar exam. NY has among the most flexible eligibility requirements in the country. Most other states are (far) less flexible to anyone without a traditional U.S. J.D. from an ABA-accredited law school. As Chicago says with regard to U.S. LL.M.s at https://www.law.uchicago.edu/llm/bar:

Foreign trained lawyers who wish to remain in the United States and practice law here are advised to obtain the JD degree rather than the LLM degree. The JD degree will enable candidates to take the bar examination in every state while the LLM degree may qualify them only to take the bar exam in a few states.

The concern would be that a 2-year J.D. with foreign advanced standing credits might likewise not be recognized across the U.S. Again I have no idea whether that's the case, but it could very well be an issue. If that is indeed an issue in non-NY jurisdictions, then given that OP will already be taking an extra 2 years of school, I think he might as well do the full 3 years so that he won't be limited to practicing in NY in future.

I don’t see the point of having only one semester of credit other than saving money. What you need to understand is that you don’t want to be in a position where you have to explain yourself to potential employers. I had to explain the whole “JD in 2 years” several times and it’s a pain. People don’t know a lot about it, they might assume it’s a different degree similar to an LLM (which I highly advise against for other reasons). I don’t know how many times I had to say that I was getting a regular JD. In short, I had to do the regular 1L coursework and all the bar-required classes in my 2L year, so I didn’t take a lot of electives.

Remember that before getting an interview, HR will be going over your résumé and trying to figure out why your expected graduation date is 2021 when you started your JD in 2019. They need to be able to put you in a box and that box is determined by your class year.

One thing to consider is how much (relevant) work experience you have. All the people I know (myself included) that had advanced standing and managed to land biglaw had extensive work experience as attorneys. If you just graduated from law school in your home country and have very little experience, you will not benefit from the advanced standing.

Of course, there are always exceptions. I’m glad it worked out for me, but if I had to do it again I think the regular 3-year program would have been way less risky.

Thanks again for your input. It's very useful. ... I'm inclined to agree that advanced standing would only be worth it for two semesters. If I were to successfully petition for two semesters that might mean I'm in a situation whereby I secure a summer position but am able to graduate the following fall semester.

So in other words, you appreciate the anon's (well-justified, IMO) calls for caution based on their personal experience following the path you want to take, but you still intend to do a 2-year J.D. anyway.

Best wishes. I don't think we can help further - we have, again and again, explained why it's not wise to do a 2-year J.D., and again and again you come back with "but why should doing a 2-year J.D. hurt my job prospects?! it shouldn't!" Well, it's not about whether it should or shouldn't. It's about the way things are, and about the logic of not fighting the system when you don't need to fight the system.

[NAMLEX]

So in other words, you appreciate the anon's (well-justified, IMO) calls for caution based on their personal experience following the path you want to take, but you still intend to do a 2-year J.D. anyway.

If you had read my second response to anon above you would have noticed that I agree it would be a good idea to apply to 3-year programs that have advanced standing provisions and to explore those options once admitted. In other words, the 3-year structure would be my default but I would still have the option to petition for credits if I didn't encounter any serious issues when speaking with careers services or prospective employers.

So yes, I appreciate calls for caution but I have not ruled out petitioning for credits if I do a JD.

[NAMLEX]

I think this thread has run it's course.

Thanks for the comments and input, much appreciated.