Median T20 grad, still unemployed... Forum

[QContinuum]

Best of luck on the patent bar! The most important thing to remember is that, unlike the state bar, you get to search the MPEP during the patent bar. So when you study, it's far more important to know where things are located in the MPEP than to try to brute-force memorize every detail. Also unlike the state bar, the patent bar is not really a time crunch (or at least it shouldn't be, if you're remotely well-prepared). I did a ton of MPEP searching when I took the patent bar and still finished with tons of time to spare. So your emphasis should be far more on accuracy than on speeding through the questions.

Of course the best part is that you know instantly whether you pass.

Your resume must suck because after 600 applications, you would get more then one interview. I was below median at a T50 and to this day I still get big law interviews (Nixon Peabody, Bryan Cave). In law school, I had NY prosecutor interviews. So it is something about your resume. You should maybe remove the MBA. And don't be picky. How have you not had interviews at insurance defense firms? At this point, just get your foot in the door. I have seen many people from crappy tier 3 or 4 schools get jobs and it sounds like you have a better record.

I think the above post goes a bit too far, but I agree - and so does OP, for that matter! - that the resume/CL needs to be better tailored. To OP's question about their MBA, no, law firms won't care about the MBA at all.

I also forget if OP is only job hunting in Tennessee, but if so, that could in large part explain their lack of success. The high-end legal market in Tennessee is tiny and OP would be up against Vandy grads with better grades, and the odd T13 student wanting to return home, for the few six-figure positions available to new grads.

[Dnl2111]

That’s GREAT to know that it’s not a time crunch! OmniPrep essentially says as much, but I had a buddy who only had time for 1 or 2 searches (I’m assuming he didn’t know where to look).

Whether the resume sucks, I don’t know. I’ve had VLS career services go over it, but they suck. Their big thing is narratives and no bullet points, but who has time to read paragrap-format block of text in a resume?? Happy to PM somebody and get a second opinion.

EDIT: For that matter, I’m happy to just post the resume on here if I can. I don’t see what it would hurt.

Yes, I’m limited to Tennessee, which may explain things partially (but only partially). Family, house, investments, shared custody of a dog. That said, I’ve also applied to and been rejected from jobs across the entire Southeast, not to mention a fair number of Northeast jobs. Hopefully the relative scarcity of a USPTO registration number will help!

Best of luck on the patent bar! The most important thing to remember is that, unlike the state bar, you get to search the MPEP during the patent bar. So when you study, it's far more important to know where things are located in the MPEP than to try to brute-force memorize every detail. Also unlike the state bar, the patent bar is not really a time crunch (or at least it shouldn't be, if you're remotely well-prepared). I did a ton of MPEP searching when I took the patent bar and still finished with tons of time to spare. So your emphasis should be far more on accuracy than on speeding through the questions.

Of course the best part is that you know instantly whether you pass.

Your resume must suck because after 600 applications, you would get more then one interview. I was below median at a T50 and to this day I still get big law interviews (Nixon Peabody, Bryan Cave). In law school, I had NY prosecutor interviews. So it is something about your resume. You should maybe remove the MBA. And don't be picky. How have you not had interviews at insurance defense firms? At this point, just get your foot in the door. I have seen many people from crappy tier 3 or 4 schools get jobs and it sounds like you have a better record.

I think the above post goes a bit too far, but I agree - and so does OP, for that matter! - that the resume/CL needs to be better tailored. To OP's question about their MBA, no, law firms won't care about the MBA at all.

I also forget if OP is only job hunting in Tennessee, but if so, that could in large part explain their lack of success. The high-end legal market in Tennessee is tiny and OP would be up against Vandy grads with better grades, and the odd T13 student wanting to return home, for the few six-figure positions available to new grads.

[QContinuum]

That’s GREAT to know that it’s not a time crunch! OmniPrep essentially says as much, but I had a buddy who only had time for 1 or 2 searches (I’m assuming he didn’t know where to look).

The key is that you have to know which section of the MPEP to look in (IIRC, there is no "global search" across the entire MPEP, unless the test has since changed). And the search function is primitive - it's not like a Google search. You have to search for specific keywords, the more unique the better. Don't even try searching for a phrase - if you're off by a single inconsequential word, you won't get any hits, and even if you actually have the phrase verbatim word-for-word, you still might not get any hits if it turns out the phrase spans across two pages in the MPEP, or there's some kind of random formatting or stray quotation mark or whatever inside it. The search is like something straight out of the 1990s.

[Dnl2111]

I’m figuring this can’t hurt, so I’m uploading a resume and cover letter I recently sent out. Constructive criticism is welcome, but feel free not to crucify me (please).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uys8x0oefokbs ... .docx?dl=0

That’s GREAT to know that it’s not a time crunch! OmniPrep essentially says as much, but I had a buddy who only had time for 1 or 2 searches (I’m assuming he didn’t know where to look).

The key is that you have to know which section of the MPEP to look in (IIRC, there is no "global search" across the entire MPEP, unless the test has since changed). And the search function is primitive - it's not like a Google search. You have to search for specific keywords, the more unique the better. Don't even try searching for a phrase - if you're off by a single inconsequential word, you won't get any hits, and even if you actually have the phrase verbatim word-for-word, you still might not get any hits if it turns out the phrase spans across two pages in the MPEP, or there's some kind of random formatting or stray quotation mark or whatever inside it. The search is like something straight out of the 1990s.

[nixy]

This is going to sound classist of me (and probably is), and isn’t probably at the heart of your struggles, but I would not lead in your letter with being a 1st gen college grad and emphasizing your humble background, and I wouldn’t include the first gen/second gen stuff in your resume. Those things make you interesting to adcomms. I don’t think they help you get a legal job. (At least, not at firms. Maybe if you were representing the indigent.)

[KunAgnis]

This is going to sound classist of me (and probably is), and isn’t probably at the heart of your struggles, but I would not lead in your letter with being a 1st gen college grad and emphasizing your humble background, and I wouldn’t include the first gen/second gen stuff in your resume. Those things make you interesting to adcomms. I don’t think they help you get a legal job. (At least, not at firms. Maybe if you were representing the indigent.)

I agree with nixy - it's a compelling story, to be sure, but this is better used for applying to schools. I think once you start applying for jobs, they want to hear about how you are better qualified for the vacant position than your competitors.

[Dnl2111]

Haha It only sounds a little classist, and only at first glance. Your advice actually does make sense. This cover letter was actually adapted from a clerkship cover letter, and my professors specifically told me to mention that stuff for clerkships.

So what does an appropriate opening for a firm cover letter sound like? Bottom line: I’m NOT the typical big firm applicant (older, prior career, mixed pedigree, advanced degrees), and I’m thinking I need an effective way to proactively address that. Thoughts?

This is going to sound classist of me (and probably is), and isn’t probably at the heart of your struggles, but I would not lead in your letter with being a 1st gen college grad and emphasizing your humble background, and I wouldn’t include the first gen/second gen stuff in your resume. Those things make you interesting to adcomms. I don’t think they help you get a legal job. (At least, not at firms. Maybe if you were representing the indigent.)

[heartlessjester]

Your focus may be off. Do not try for ip, try for something else. To be brutally honest you probably have a lower shot at ip than anything else. For ip lit, grades make a very big difference without a specificific background that you lack. For patent prosecution, you have the worst possible combinatikn of STEM degrees. For life science based Patent Prosecution,there is an oversaturated market, the demand is smaller and they only really take PhDs. Industrial engineering is one of the worst possibke backgrounds for patent pros. You may have had a shot when you first graduated, but they aren't taking you as a 2016 grad with no prosecution experience. If you were EECS things would be totally different. Your background is also too broad, switching from bio/psych to industrial eng to business to law just makes you seem wishy washy and like you don't have any real direction, it doesn't seem directed and meaningful. Find a way to really tie it all together and explain it logically. Find a real niche where your background will help and try for that, ip is not going to be your saving grace and prepping for the patent bar will waste time and money you can spend more productively.

[QContinuum]

Your focus may be off. Do not try for ip, try for something else. To be brutally honest you probably have a lower shot at ip than anything else. For ip lit, grades make a very big difference without a specificific background that you lack. For patent prosecution, you have the worst possible combinatikn of STEM degrees. For life science based Patent Prosecution,there is an oversaturated market, the demand is smaller and they only really take PhDs. Industrial engineering is one of the worst possibke backgrounds for patent pros. You may have had a shot when you first graduated, but they aren't taking you as a 2016 grad with no prosecution experience. If you were EECS things would be totally different. Your background is also too broad, switching from bio/psych to industrial eng to business to law just makes you seem wishy washy and like you don't have any real direction, it doesn't seem directed and meaningful. Find a way to really tie it all together and explain it logically. Find a real niche where your background will help and try for that, ip is not going to be your saving grace and prepping for the patent bar will waste time and money you can spend more productively.

OP has already been trying for non-IP positions, so it's not like OP has been going all-in on IP. I agree that OP should continue also seeking non-IP positions. But I don't think it hurts for OP to try for IP, especially once they pass the patent bar.

While IP lit is still somewhat grades-sensitive (unlike prosecution), I think it's at least somewhat less grades-sensitive than non-IP fields. Further, OP has a freaking Ph.D. - a highly prized rarity in the IP world, I assure you - and (soon) the ability to call themselves a patent attorney - while patent bar eligibility among IP litigators isn't as rare as it used to be, it's still an additional feather in OP's cap. So even if IP was just as grades-sensitive as non-IP, OP would still have an easier time getting an IP job because IP actually cares about their STEM background.

Finally, OP's grades aren't terrible. They graduated from a T20 at median. It's not like OP graduated at the bottom of the class at a T2.

I agree that OP's specific STEM background isn't ideal for prosecution. OP's final degree is in engineering, but prosecution shops prefer that engineers have work experience in the field, which IIRC OP doesn't have. Still, who knows - some firms might be willing to take a shot given OP's Ph.D. Even the top prosecution shops routinely take prosecutors - both in the life sciences and engineering - who graduated from lower T1s/T2s (or even lower-ranked law schools), because they want their STEM credentials. I have to think they'd be even happier to take someone like OP, who not only has the Ph.D. but also graduated from a T20 with decent grades.

[nixy]

Haha It only sounds a little classist, and only at first glance. Your advice actually does make sense. This cover letter was actually adapted from a clerkship cover letter, and my professors specifically told me to mention that stuff for clerkships.

So what does an appropriate opening for a firm cover letter sound like? Bottom line: I’m NOT the typical big firm applicant (older, prior career, mixed pedigree, advanced degrees), and I’m thinking I need an effective way to proactively address that. Thoughts?

Yeah, I can see why you did that for a clerkship letter. I think your letter is fairly decent once it gets past the first paragraph (you could keep the basic stuff in that paragraph about being a year X school Y grad). I don’t think you need to overthink not being “typical” - you have experience, that’s a good thing. (Though maybe don’t say you’ll be a tremendous asset?) I’m afraid I can’t comment on the IP stuff discussed immediately above though - outside my expertise.

[Dnl2111]

Thanks for all of the input. A few questions:

1. Any advice on how to tie everything together? I struggle with how to connect seemingly disparate fields of study when resumes are basically limited to bullet points.

2. Any thoughts on why I’ve gotten only one interview since graduation? FWIW, this is essentially the cover letter and resume I’ve been sending firms, with the “atypical” first paragraph being a written addition. In other words, y’all are seeing what a firm would have seen. Furthermore, my GPA is middle-of-the-pack at VLS, and there’s apparently no shortage of my classmates now at firms.

3. What do people from lower ranked schools do? Vandy Law was 17th last year, and I’ve literally had only 1 interview since graduation (pharmaceutical and medical device litigator at a regional firm) and after hundreds of applications to all areas of the country (but focused on Tennessee. Meanwhile, Cecil C. Humphreys in Memphis is 137th, and UT Knoxville 57th. I’m assuming plenty of these people get jobs.

4. Regardless of whether I pass the patent bar—and I certainly have studied an ample amount—is it worth me going back and trying to snag a federal clerkship?

Thanks in advance,

D

Your focus may be off. Do not try for ip, try for something else. To be brutally honest you probably have a lower shot at ip than anything else. For ip lit, grades make a very big difference without a specificific background that you lack. For patent prosecution, you have the worst possible combinatikn of STEM degrees. For life science based Patent Prosecution,there is an oversaturated market, the demand is smaller and they only really take PhDs. Industrial engineering is one of the worst possibke backgrounds for patent pros. You may have had a shot when you first graduated, but they aren't taking you as a 2016 grad with no prosecution experience. If you were EECS things would be totally different. Your background is also too broad, switching from bio/psych to industrial eng to business to law just makes you seem wishy washy and like you don't have any real direction, it doesn't seem directed and meaningful. Find a way to really tie it all together and explain it logically. Find a real niche where your background will help and try for that, ip is not going to be your saving grace and prepping for the patent bar will waste time and money you can spend more productively.

OP has already been trying for non-IP positions, so it's not like OP has been going all-in on IP. I agree that OP should continue also seeking non-IP positions. But I don't think it hurts for OP to try for IP, especially once they pass the patent bar.

While IP lit is still somewhat grades-sensitive (unlike prosecution), I think it's at least somewhat less grades-sensitive than non-IP fields. Further, OP has a freaking Ph.D. - a highly prized rarity in the IP world, I assure you - and (soon) the ability to call themselves a patent attorney - while patent bar eligibility among IP litigators isn't as rare as it used to be, it's still an additional feather in OP's cap. So even if IP was just as grades-sensitive as non-IP, OP would still have an easier time getting an IP job because IP actually cares about their STEM background.

Finally, OP's grades aren't terrible. They graduated from a T20 at median. It's not like OP graduated at the bottom of the class at a T2.

I agree that OP's specific STEM background isn't ideal for prosecution. OP's final degree is in engineering, but prosecution shops prefer that engineers have work experience in the field, which IIRC OP doesn't have. Still, who knows - some firms might be willing to take a shot given OP's Ph.D. Even the top prosecution shops routinely take prosecutors - both in the life sciences and engineering - who graduated from lower T1s/T2s (or even lower-ranked law schools), because they want their STEM credentials. I have to think they'd be even happier to take someone like OP, who not only has the Ph.D. but also graduated from a T20 with decent grades.

[heartlessjester]

Thanks for all of the input. A few questions:

1. Any advice on how to tie everything together? I struggle with how to connect seemingly disparate fields of study when resumes are basically limited to bullet points.

2. Any thoughts on why I’ve gotten only one interview since graduation? FWIW, this is essentially the cover letter and resume I’ve been sending firms, with the “atypical” first paragraph being a written addition. In other words, y’all are seeing what a firm would have seen. Furthermore, my GPA is middle-of-the-pack at VLS, and there’s apparently no shortage of my classmates now at firms.

3. What do people from lower ranked schools do? Vandy Law was 17th last year, and I’ve literally had only 1 interview since graduation (pharmaceutical and medical device litigator at a regional firm) and after hundreds of applications to all areas of the country (but focused on Tennessee. Meanwhile, Cecil C. Humphreys in Memphis is 137th, and UT Knoxville 57th. I’m assuming plenty of these people get jobs.

4. Regardless of whether I pass the patent bar—and I certainly have studied an ample amount—is it worth me going back and trying to snag a federal clerkship?

Thanks in advance,

D

Your focus may be off. Do not try for ip, try for something else. To be brutally honest you probably have a lower shot at ip than anything else. For ip lit, grades make a very big difference without a specificific background that you lack. For patent prosecution, you have the worst possible combinatikn of STEM degrees. For life science based Patent Prosecution,there is an oversaturated market, the demand is smaller and they only really take PhDs. Industrial engineering is one of the worst possibke backgrounds for patent pros. You may have had a shot when you first graduated, but they aren't taking you as a 2016 grad with no prosecution experience. If you were EECS things would be totally different. Your background is also too broad, switching from bio/psych to industrial eng to business to law just makes you seem wishy washy and like you don't have any real direction, it doesn't seem directed and meaningful. Find a way to really tie it all together and explain it logically. Find a real niche where your background will help and try for that, ip is not going to be your saving grace and prepping for the patent bar will waste time and money you can spend more productively.

OP has already been trying for non-IP positions, so it's not like OP has been going all-in on IP. I agree that OP should continue also seeking non-IP positions. But I don't think it hurts for OP to try for IP, especially once they pass the patent bar.

While IP lit is still somewhat grades-sensitive (unlike prosecution), I think it's at least somewhat less grades-sensitive than non-IP fields. Further, OP has a freaking Ph.D. - a highly prized rarity in the IP world, I assure you - and (soon) the ability to call themselves a patent attorney - while patent bar eligibility among IP litigators isn't as rare as it used to be, it's still an additional feather in OP's cap. So even if IP was just as grades-sensitive as non-IP, OP would still have an easier time getting an IP job because IP actually cares about their STEM background.

Finally, OP's grades aren't terrible. They graduated from a T20 at median. It's not like OP graduated at the bottom of the class at a T2.

I agree that OP's specific STEM background isn't ideal for prosecution. OP's final degree is in engineering, but prosecution shops prefer that engineers have work experience in the field, which IIRC OP doesn't have. Still, who knows - some firms might be willing to take a shot given OP's Ph.D. Even the top prosecution shops routinely take prosecutors - both in the life sciences and engineering - who graduated from lower T1s/T2s (or even lower-ranked law schools), because they want their STEM credentials. I have to think they'd be even happier to take someone like OP, who not only has the Ph.D. but also graduated from a T20 with decent grades.

TBH, the problem is not you or your resume, you simply fell through the cracks. Firms deal very badly with someone that doesn't get a job through their typical hiring model. It is useless to look at the oast, but would that would have meant for you is snagging a 2L summer position at OCI, PLIP, SIPJF, or SF ip job fair or mass mailing. You missed out on 2L SA hiring and don't have an extreme factor like EECS/HYS, so firms don't know what to do with you. Lateral hiring is a thing, but they prefer biglaw to biglaw and are picky even about what specific biglaw firm. If you miss biglaw immediately after graduation it is infinitely more difficult to get later on. There are 4 paths for you. 1. Become an expert in something super niche and make your way to biglaw 2. Coincidentally end up in a small firm that merges into a big firm 3. Use a federal clerkship to reset your hirability 4. This one is questionable: take a year and get an MS in EE or CS. Your best shot is likely the clerkship. You asked if a federal clerkship is worth it and the answer is yes. If you can get one you can reset your hirability and get biglaw again, because firms have a system in place for clerkship hiring. If you luck out completely and get a fed circuit clerkship any ip lit firm in the country will hire you.

[Anonymous User]

I passed the patent bar about a year ago but have been working in an IP department for over a decade. There are IP jobs but they are not going to be as prevalent as regular law jobs. You should at least consider relocating because you can always come back to where you live now in a few years when an opportunity comes available. Good luck, but if you applied to that many jobs with only one interview there must be some issue you are not unaware of.

I moved thousands of miles for jobs multiple times in my career. It was worth it and I now live about 1.5 hours from my childhood home in a small town with a good job.

[nixy]

3. What do people from lower ranked schools do? Vandy Law was 17th last year, and I’ve literally had only 1 interview since graduation (pharmaceutical and medical device litigator at a regional firm) and after hundreds of applications to all areas of the country (but focused on Tennessee. Meanwhile, Cecil C. Humphreys in Memphis is 137th, and UT Knoxville 57th. I’m assuming plenty of these people get jobs.

So, not sure if this is helpful to you at all, but getting jobs outside, say, the top 10% at lower-ranked schools is about networking and getting experience and trading on that experience. Most people will be getting jobs with small firms, maybe local government (DA/PD) positions. This is another backward-looking comment (so not that helpful), but a lot of people I know in that situation worked for small firms or the like during school and got to be a known quantity within the areas they worked. So the usual advice is: join inns of court. Join the local bar. Go to CLEs. Talk to people. Do informational interviews with local alums in your target market/practice area to find out more about the field and get to know people (who can think of you in future when someone wants to hire). It's more about hustle and connections than about grades/school pedigree.

(And of course not all Humphreys/Knoxville grads will get jobs, but the above is probably how some of them get jobs.)

This is also a bit more nitpicky, but I would reduce the description of your RA experience on your resume; I doubt most employers are going to care about the specific academic areas you researched. For those that do, you could reference them in your cover letter. I would also probably move the RA experience to below your other summer jobs - that experience looks more substantive because it's more actual practice, but in this order, the RA stuff is highlighted more strongly. (I think chronology-wise it won't look weird to do that.)

Again getting really nitpicky, but to be honest I think your capitalization/punctuation/abbreviations aren't great. The punctuation seems inconsistent (some sentences end with a period, some don't). The first letter after semi-colons shouldn't be capitalized. You use at least one acronym that isn't explained (TBI) and I don't think using &, w/, or w/o in a resume is appropriate. Also you abbreviate a LOT (Int'l, Dept., nom.) and while I get that you're trying to save space, I don't think abbreviations look good in a resume. (I also don't know what Inst. GPA means vs. GPA.) I wouldn't include the Glee Club stuff in the education section. I think the bolding of just a couple of items that you want to highlight (in the content, not as part of headings) looks off.

Again, the above probably aren't sinking you - I think the commentary about falling through the cracks if you don't get hired on the traditional path is on point (and I agree with the recommendation to look for a clerkship, although it's not a panacea). But I also think putting forth *impeccable* application materials is important.

I think for at least some employers, it will make sense for you to give more details about your current gig. You include a couple of notable outcomes but I guess I think you could talk up your actual practice experience here? (And to be nitpicky again - you might want to clean up your current gig's webpage? if prospective employers google it, I'm not sure it does you a lot of favors - mostly just the sections where the webpage defaults are still there like the FAQ and Gallery.)

[Dnl2111]

Have you done any remote IP work for firms with overflow? Feels like I see a ton of postings on Indeed with work like that, but you might need to have been at an IP firm before someone with remote work would even look at you.

I passed the patent bar about a year ago but have been working in an IP department for over a decade. There are IP jobs but they are not going to be as prevalent as regular law jobs. You should at least consider relocating because you can always come back to where you live now in a few years when an opportunity comes available. Good luck, but if you applied to that many jobs with only one interview there must be some issue you are not unaware of.

I moved thousands of miles for jobs multiple times in my career. It was worth it and I now live about 1.5 hours from my childhood home in a small town with a good job.

[Anonymous User]

Have you done any remote IP work for firms with overflow? Feels like I see a ton of postings on Indeed with work like that, but you might need to have been at an IP firm before someone with remote work would even look at you.

I passed the patent bar about a year ago but have been working in an IP department for over a decade. There are IP jobs but they are not going to be as prevalent as regular law jobs. You should at least consider relocating because you can always come back to where you live now in a few years when an opportunity comes available. Good luck, but if you applied to that many jobs with only one interview there must be some issue you are not unaware of.

I moved thousands of miles for jobs multiple times in my career. It was worth it and I now live about 1.5 hours from my childhood home in a small town with a good job.

I work in-house at a corporation but we use many external IP firms for a variety of things. I only know of one firm that we use that has some of their patent attorneys working remotely. That is a unique situation because some of the attorneys left one firm to join another so it was probably part of the deal to work remotely when they left their old firm. USPTO examiners can work remotely (part of the time?) but I don't think the pay is that great to start. However, a few years as a patent examiner will definitely look good on a resume for future opportunities.