how much does firm prestige reallllyyy matter? Forum

[cali7802000]

DC: Kellogg Hansen

[decimalsanddollars]

South:
Susman
V&E
Latham

Just to note: Latham doesn't litigate in Houston and doesn't have any other offices in the South. A lot of boutiques (Gibbs & Bruns, Reynolds Frizzell, AZA to name a few) outperform most of biglaw in the South as well.

[Iowahawk]

The appellate group of Gibson Dunn's Dallas office also seemed to be one of the most common destinations for Fed Soc gunners at my school.

Consovoy McCarthy and Cooper & Kirk are very conservative DC firms with SCOTUS connections that attract a lot of Fed Soc types.

[FND]

I can't speak for others, but I think the below are generally seen as the top 10 "full service" firms in NYC (in alphabetical order):

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

Weil was probably in there not too long ago, but I think K&E has probably surpassed them. To be fair, Vault NY pretty closely approximates my perception of the NY market.

in the 00's, Weil and Latham were both easily in the top 10. Things change over time.

A good shorthand for prestige is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... er_partner

That being said, prestige is never that simple. Practice group and location both matter, for which I recommend looking at Chambers. The people also matter, and the departure or arrival of a major partner can make a big difference.

Being in a good and stable group in a V50 firm's main office can be much better than being in a satellite office of a V10 or a neglected practice group at a V5. Being at an 'on the rise' firm can be far more beneficial long-term than joining a firm on the verge of collapse. In the mid 2000s nobody would seriously consider taking Quinn Emanuel over Dewey Ballantine, and look at where they are now.

[+] Spoiler

As an aside, Leboeuf Lamb Greene & McRae, before the merger, had a phenomenal insurance practice. When Dewey Leboeuf collapsed, that entire practice group ended up at Mayer Brown, and is still going strong.

[Wild Card]

A good shorthand for prestige is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... er_partner

Isn't this a better measure of evilness and greed of boomer partners?

[LBJ's Hair]

Feel like there's a real disconnect in NY litigation in particular between the perceived quality of many white shoe firms and the reality that they ... do not have any work ...

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

Like OK sure, pick your 2L SA based on that above list, but some of those same firms can't even take you back post-clerkship. They're living off 1-2 of M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation.

[FND]

many white shoe firms and the reality that they ... do not have any work ...

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

They're living off 1-2 of M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation.

are you kidding?

[LBJ's Hair]

many white shoe firms and the reality that they ... do not have any work ...

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

They're living off 1-2 of M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation.

are you kidding?

no, it's an open secret (is it a secret?) at this point. there've been signs for like two years at least - certain firms not hiring out of clerkships, certain firms not taking their clerks come back, stealth layoffs.

tbh I didn't think this was a particularly controversial statement. just something you wouldn't know if you were a 2L but def knew if you were a midlevel in NY

[FND]

many white shoe firms and the reality that they ... do not have any work ...

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

They're living off 1-2 of M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation.

are you kidding?

no, it's an open secret at this point. there've been signs for like two years at least - certain firms not hiring out of clerkships, certain firms not taking their clerks come back, stealth layoffs ...

I understand work might begin to dry up - the economy has been running on full cylinders for a while and the business world is bracing for a correction. But there's no way a firm with a 1000 attorneys could survive even a quarter with just "1-2 of M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation". Even in the lows of the great recesssion, there was more going on than that.

Not only that, these firms don't only do "M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation", they do a other stuff as well, plenty of which you might never know. Certainly in January and February the job market was booming, and some of those firms are still openly listing positions they need filled.

[LBJ's Hair]

many white shoe firms and the reality that they ... do not have any work ...

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

They're living off 1-2 of M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation.

are you kidding?

no, it's an open secret at this point. there've been signs for like two years at least - certain firms not hiring out of clerkships, certain firms not taking their clerks come back, stealth layoffs ...

I understand work might begin to dry up - the economy has been running on full cylinders for a while and the business world is bracing for a correction. But there's no way a firm with a 1000 attorneys could survive even a quarter with just "1-2 of M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation". Even in the lows of the great recesssion, there was more going on than that.

Not only that, these firms don't only do "M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation", they do a other stuff as well, plenty of which you might never know. Certainly in January and February the job market was booming, and some of those firms are still openly listing positions they need filled.

My point was just that there are 3-4 firms on that list of the traditional "best" law firms in NY someone posted that have pretty dead litigation practices, their reputations notwithstanding. Don't overrate "prestige."

If you wanna get into a fine-grained dispute about the relative share of fees at various firms coming from M&A vs financing vs capital markets groups like .. like, that's an empirical question I guess. I agree "corporate" as a general matter has been quite profitable, growing, etc

[cali7802000]

many white shoe firms and the reality that they ... do not have any work ...

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

They're living off 1-2 of M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation.

are you kidding?

no, it's an open secret at this point. there've been signs for like two years at least - certain firms not hiring out of clerkships, certain firms not taking their clerks come back, stealth layoffs ...

I understand work might begin to dry up - the economy has been running on full cylinders for a while and the business world is bracing for a correction. But there's no way a firm with a 1000 attorneys could survive even a quarter with just "1-2 of M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation". Even in the lows of the great recesssion, there was more going on than that.

Not only that, these firms don't only do "M&A/capital markets/financing/private equity fund formation", they do a other stuff as well, plenty of which you might never know. Certainly in January and February the job market was booming, and some of those firms are still openly listing positions they need filled.

My point was just that there are 3-4 firms on that list of the traditional "best" law firms in NY someone posted that have pretty dead litigation practices, their reputations notwithstanding. Don't overrate "prestige."

If you wanna get into a fine-grained dispute about the relative share of fees at various firms coming from M&A vs financing vs capital markets groups like .. like, that's an empirical question I guess. I agree "corporate" as a general matter has been quite profitable, growing, etc

Which 3-4 firms on that list have quiet litigation practices?

[Elston Gunn]

As a former NY mid level, very much in agreement that there’s plenty of smoke suggesting several V10s have very quiet litigation practices at the moment.

[bajablast]

"Vault" ~= prestige. "Prestige" should be one of the more important considerations, but Vault rankings are an extremely poor indicator of it in essentially any situation.

Breh, everyone knows RPL is all that matters

But in all seriousness, most prestigious firms are probably lit boutiques only Yale/Harvard kids have heard of. For big law, I associate prestige with the classic New York white shoe firms. I wouldn't even consider firms in the v10 like K&E, Weil, and Latham prestigious (even though they are fucking animals and in my mind the best firms) just because they take so many median t13 and top non t-13 students

[FND]

"Vault" ~= prestige. "Prestige" should be one of the more important considerations, but Vault rankings are an extremely poor indicator of it in essentially any situation.

Breh, everyone knows RPL is all that matters

But in all seriousness, most prestigious firms are probably lit boutiques only Yale/Harvard kids have heard of. For big law, I associate prestige with the classic New York white shoe firms. I wouldn't even consider firms in the v10 like K&E, Weil, and Latham prestigious (even though they are fucking animals and in my mind the best firms) just because they take so many median t13 and top non t-13 students

most prestigious depends on perspective. In the corporate world, places like Weil and Latham are as prestigious as it gets, and those lit boutiques nobody has heard of? Well, nobody has heard of them, so they're not prestigious at all.

[Iowahawk]

Kirkland is definitely prestigious and as selective as any other biglaw firm in Chicago. These things are market-dependent, New York's corporate market that drives Vault isn't that relevant in a lot of places.

[jackshunger]

As someone headed to a V10 this summer (1L) and has an interest in lit, I'd like to know which of these firms have quiet litigation practices right now

[believeland]

As a former NY mid level, very much in agreement that there’s plenty of smoke suggesting several V10s have very quiet litigation practices at the moment.

Can you be any more specific about which firms? I'm headed back to one after a clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland is definitely prestigious and as selective as any other biglaw firm in Chicago. These things are market-dependent, New York's corporate market that drives Vault isn't that relevant in a lot of places.

Was at one of the U of C/Northwestern for law school, can confirm that Kirkland Chicago was as hard to get as Cravath. Kirkland NY was easier and more on the level of Weil.

[cali7802000]

LBJ's Hair, Elston's Gunn, or any of the others who said some of those V10 NYC litigation shops are quite slow...can you name some specifics please?

[Anonymous User]

The appellate group of Gibson Dunn's Dallas office also seemed to be one of the most common destinations for Fed Soc gunners at my school.

Consovoy McCarthy and Cooper & Kirk are very conservative DC firms with SCOTUS connections that attract a lot of Fed Soc types.

Can confirm above about Gibson Dunn Dallas, but extends beyond the appellate group. Unusually heavy COA clerkship / Fed Soc representation (although diverse politically overall). Small office but multiple SCOTUS clerks. The most selective lit group in Dallas and home to the co-head of Gibson's national appellate practice.

Ditto on whoever mentioned lit boutiques like Gibbs & Bruns and Reynolds Frizzell for Houston. Yetter's also worth mentioning. At least couple of these are close to Susman in terms of selectivity but very different cultures. If you want to litigate in Houston, you should go to a boutique. V&E lit is not particularly prestigious in Texas (although excellent corporate practice obviously). Latham doesn't do any lit at all.