Where do bottom 10% of T-14 go? Forum

[Anonymous User]

It seems like the consensus at my school (UVA) is that everyone that wants biglaw and can be geographically flexible (read as willing to go to NYC or Richmond/Northern Virginia) will get it. Including the bottom 10%.

No offense but the consensus at UVA appears to be wrong.

why do you say that

UVA alum here, this was not the consensus when I was there. People well below median can get biglaw if they are flexible and interview well, but it’s hardly anyone who wants it.

Market has improved since you went to UVA though. Career services talked about being at "full employment" for biglaw/fed clerkships at the 1L career meeting last year

[Anonymous User]

It seems like the consensus at my school (UVA) is that everyone that wants biglaw and can be geographically flexible (read as willing to go to NYC or Richmond/Northern Virginia) will get it. Including the bottom 10%.

No offense but the consensus at UVA appears to be wrong.

why do you say that

UVA alum here, this was not the consensus when I was there. People well below median can get biglaw if they are flexible and interview well, but it’s hardly anyone who wants it.

Market has improved since you went to UVA though. Career services talked about being at "full employment" for biglaw/fed clerkships at the 1L career meeting last year

terrible interviewers aside, I think in today's market that is pretty much correct

[Anonymous User]

Love the anons in here. This has never been true and likely never will be true. Well below median is a crap shoot in the *best* of years. I am very confident about that for M/V/P/D/N/C, etc., fanbois and stans of various schools/USNWR BS inflated/manipulated numbers notwithstanding.

1Ls will see soon enough. I cannot believe that the whole law school world has changed in the last couple years or so.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Love the anons in here. This has never been true and likely never will be true. Well below median is a crap shoot in the *best* of years. I am very confident about that for M/V/P/D/N/C, etc., fanbois and stans of various schools/USNWR BS inflated/manipulated numbers notwithstanding.

1Ls will see soon enough. I cannot believe that the whole law school world has changed in the last couple years or so.

Accidental anon, was me.

[Anonymous User]

Love the anons in here. This has never been true and likely never will be true. Well below median is a crap shoot in the *best* of years. I am very confident about that for M/V/P/D/N/C, etc., fanbois and stans of various schools/USNWR BS inflated/manipulated numbers notwithstanding.

1Ls will see soon enough. I cannot believe that the whole law school world has changed in the last couple years or so.

"Crap shoot" maybe. But not unlikely. How do you explain the fact that Duke had 81% of 2017 grads in BL+FC ? That is not even including people who wanted government/PI. EIGHTY percent of people at Duke do not having trouble finding a good job. What kind of manipulated numbers is that? You can definitely be below median and do fine. You will have to interview well, yes. You cannot be picky about market, yes. You will have to hustle, yes. But it is not impossible.

Also, the difference between bottom 10% and bottom 30% is nothing when it comes to getting Biglaw. Firms know you're far below where they want you. So they're looking for something - most likely your personality - that will set you apart.

[Anonymous User]

Love the anons in here. This has never been true and likely never will be true. Well below median is a crap shoot in the *best* of years. I am very confident about that for M/V/P/D/N/C, etc., fanbois and stans of various schools/USNWR BS inflated/manipulated numbers notwithstanding.

1Ls will see soon enough. I cannot believe that the whole law school world has changed in the last couple years or so.

*graduated in 2010*

[Anonymous User]

Love the anons in here. This has never been true and likely never will be true. Well below median is a crap shoot in the *best* of years. I am very confident about that for M/V/P/D/N/C, etc., fanbois and stans of various schools/USNWR BS inflated/manipulated numbers notwithstanding.

1Ls will see soon enough. I cannot believe that the whole law school world has changed in the last couple years or so.

Could career services be painting a rosy picture? Maybe. But I'm going off of what career services have told us, and have continued to tell us. If you want biglaw and are geographically flexible, you'll get it from UVA. 77% speaks for itself

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Love the anons in here. This has never been true and likely never will be true. Well below median is a crap shoot in the *best* of years. I am very confident about that for M/V/P/D/N/C, etc., fanbois and stans of various schools/USNWR BS inflated/manipulated numbers notwithstanding.

1Ls will see soon enough. I cannot believe that the whole law school world has changed in the last couple years or so.

*graduated in 2010*

Lol, not at all.

[Wild Card]

Love the anons in here. This has never been true and likely never will be true. Well below median is a crap shoot in the *best* of years. I am very confident about that for M/V/P/D/N/C, etc., fanbois and stans of various schools/USNWR BS inflated/manipulated numbers notwithstanding.

1Ls will see soon enough. I cannot believe that the whole law school world has changed in the last couple years or so.

"Crap shoot" maybe. But not unlikely. How do you explain the fact that Duke had 81% of 2017 grads in BL+FC ? That is not even including people who wanted government/PI. EIGHTY percent of people at Duke do not having trouble finding a good job. What kind of manipulated numbers is that? You can definitely be below median and do fine. You will have to interview well, yes. You cannot be picky about market, yes. You will have to hustle, yes. But it is not impossible.

Also, the difference between bottom 10% and bottom 30% is nothing when it comes to getting Biglaw. Firms know you're far below where they want you. So they're looking for something - most likely your personality - that will set you apart.

This is fair, that kids well below median are fucked, but from the viewpoint of an interviewer who casts eyes on your transcript, B+/B/B+/B/B+/B (3.17) still looks better than B+/B/B/B/B/B (3.06). And below median is a serious danger zone: I speak from personal experience, having attended OCI in 2016.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Love the anons in here. This has never been true and likely never will be true. Well below median is a crap shoot in the *best* of years. I am very confident about that for M/V/P/D/N/C, etc., fanbois and stans of various schools/USNWR BS inflated/manipulated numbers notwithstanding.

1Ls will see soon enough. I cannot believe that the whole law school world has changed in the last couple years or so.

Could career services be painting a rosy picture? Maybe. But I'm going off of what career services have told us, and have continued to tell us. If you want biglaw and are geographically flexible, you'll get it from UVA. 77% speaks for itself

Those figures are very good and things are good. This is a peak economy. You may think all those firm jobs are good jobs. They probably are not. You may think almost all of those individuals got their firm jobs through OCI. They probably did not. Those are 9 months after graduation, right? If the economy holds up into 9 months after graduation, you can expect similar numbers. If it doesn't last that long you should expect worse. You may think all the PI/Gov people wanted to do that from the beginning. Many probably did not.

But the thing is, the anons have just shifted the goal post. I said it was BS that bottom 10% could get biglaw if they wanted out of UVA. Lots of those large firms are not what most would consider "biglaw." Many of the PI/Gov people took those jobs because that was all that was available to them. That's surely true for the state clerkships. So the numbers do not seem to help your argument so much as mine. Many, if not most, of these under-employed grads are probably well below median but not even necessarily bottom 10% because, as discussed above, it's a crap shoot well below median.

So now the anons are essentially agreeing with my original statement that well below median is a crap shoot but making noises like they are making counterpoints.

You will not get biglaw if you want it out of UVA. The numbers speak for themselves.

[Anonymous User]

Love the anons in here. This has never been true and likely never will be true. Well below median is a crap shoot in the *best* of years. I am very confident about that for M/V/P/D/N/C, etc., fanbois and stans of various schools/USNWR BS inflated/manipulated numbers notwithstanding.

1Ls will see soon enough. I cannot believe that the whole law school world has changed in the last couple years or so.

Could career services be painting a rosy picture? Maybe. But I'm going off of what career services have told us, and have continued to tell us. If you want biglaw and are geographically flexible, you'll get it from UVA. 77% speaks for itself

Those figures are very good and things are good. This is a peak economy. You may think all those firm jobs are good jobs. They probably are not. You may think almost all of those individuals got their firm jobs through OCI. They probably did not. Those are 9 months after graduation, right? If the economy holds up into 9 months after graduation, you can expect similar numbers. If it doesn't last that long you should expect worse. You may think all the PI/Gov people wanted to do that from the beginning. Many probably did not.

But the thing is, the anons have just shifted the goal post. I said it was BS that bottom 10% could get biglaw if they wanted out of UVA. Lots of those large firms are not what most would consider "biglaw." Many of the PI/Gov people took those jobs because that was all that was available to them. That's surely true for the state clerkships. So the numbers do not seem to help your argument so much as mine. Many, if not most, of these under-employed grads are probably well below median but not even necessarily bottom 10% because, as discussed above, it's a crap shoot well below median.

So now the anons are essentially agreeing with my original statement that well below median is a crap shoot but making noises like they are making counterpoints.

You will not get biglaw if you want it out of UVA. The numbers speak for themselves.

If you're that sure about UVA, you should be that sure about every non HYS school as well. UVA/Duke/Uchicago have the best numbers.

[Anonymous User]

Just some data for people having the strikeout debate.

Columbia admitted 437 for Fall 2016 including transfers. 329 offers were accepted at 2017 EIP. Assuming number of people who turned down all offers they received is negligible and EIP participation rate of ~90%. You have ~17% chance of striking out at EIP. ~75% of the class will get an offer out of EIP. Since 9-month biglaw numbers are probable ~80% and some people get no-offered/cold offered, maybe 5-7% of people will pick up biglaw after EIP. This doesn't even account for MBA who land IB, people returning to 1L SAs, or clerks, but the numbers should be pretty reflective of reality. So, the % of people who graduate without some sort of traditionally desirable private sector employment would probably be ~15%. I'd guess there's maybe 2-4 people who wouldn't touch the private sector with a ten foot pole, extrapolate to 4 sections so maybe 10-15 people so if you categorize it as % of people who graduated without traditional desirable private sector employment and also did not want PI from the start, I'd call it maybe ~10%.

[Anonymous User]

You law students really are insufferable....

And generally incorrect.

[Anonymous User]

Love the anons in here. This has never been true and likely never will be true. Well below median is a crap shoot in the *best* of years. I am very confident about that for M/V/P/D/N/C, etc., fanbois and stans of various schools/USNWR BS inflated/manipulated numbers notwithstanding.

1Ls will see soon enough. I cannot believe that the whole law school world has changed in the last couple years or so.

"Crap shoot" maybe. But not unlikely. How do you explain the fact that Duke had 81% of 2017 grads in BL+FC ? That is not even including people who wanted government/PI. EIGHTY percent of people at Duke do not having trouble finding a good job. What kind of manipulated numbers is that? You can definitely be below median and do fine. You will have to interview well, yes. You cannot be picky about market, yes. You will have to hustle, yes. But it is not impossible.

Also, the difference between bottom 10% and bottom 30% is nothing when it comes to getting Biglaw. Firms know you're far below where they want you. So they're looking for something - most likely your personality - that will set you apart.

This is fair, that kids well below median are fucked, but from the viewpoint of an interviewer who casts eyes on your transcript, B+/B/B+/B/B+/B (3.17) still looks better than B+/B/B/B/B/B (3.06). And below median is a serious danger zone: I speak from personal experience, having attended OCI in 2016.

I read it twice before I notice the difference.

[Anonymous User]

You law students really are insufferable....

And generally incorrect.

this is the type of post an insufferable person would write

[guynourmin]

That's surely true for the state clerkships.

For what little it is worth, I am definitely going to apply to some state supreme Court clerkships in addition to district and circuit courts.

[Anonymous User]

That's surely true for the state clerkships.

For what little it is worth, I am definitely going to apply to some state supreme Court clerkships in addition to district and circuit courts.

Yeah, really depends on the state and the person.

[anon sequitur]

By “state clerkships” I think the poster was not talking about state Supreme Court clerkships but trial court clerkships, which are definitely not a good outcome for a top 20 grad.

[Anonymous User]

Went to a lower T-14 and did OCI in 2016.

I agree with most of the commenters, but think there are probably a few more buckets than suggested. Again, all of this is assuming you are at least an average interviewer

Top 10-15% - most top firms should be attainable (but you're likely barred from non-selective firms)
Top third - grade selective firms will be out, but strong firms are still available
Somewhere around median - strong firms are still available, but V-10s are probably out
Not too far below median - firms that are not grade selective
Bottom 10 -25% - still lots of vault firms in place, and some non-vault ranked but still AmLaw 250 firms.

But again this is all contingent on an average resume and an average interview. FWIW, you are safer being in the bottom half with average interviewing abilities, than top third with no ability to hold a conversation

[Anonymous User]

Went to a lower T-14 and did OCI in 2016.

I agree with most of the commenters, but think there are probably a few more buckets than suggested. Again, all of this is assuming you are at least an average interviewer

Top 10-15% - most top firms should be attainable (but you're likely barred from non-selective firms)
Top third - grade selective firms will be out, but strong firms are still available
Somewhere around median - strong firms are still available, but V-10s are probably out
Not too far below median - firms that are not grade selective
Bottom 10 -25% - still lots of vault firms in place, and some non-vault ranked but still AmLaw 250 firms.

But again this is all contingent on an average resume and an average interview. FWIW, you are safer being in the bottom half with average interviewing abilities, than top third with no ability to hold a conversation

good post!

[Anonymous User]

Just some data for people having the strikeout debate.

Columbia admitted 437 for Fall 2016 including transfers. 329 offers were accepted at 2017 EIP. Assuming number of people who turned down all offers they received is negligible and EIP participation rate of ~90%. You have ~17% chance of striking out at EIP. ~75% of the class will get an offer out of EIP. Since 9-month biglaw numbers are probable ~80% and some people get no-offered/cold offered, maybe 5-7% of people will pick up biglaw after EIP. This doesn't even account for MBA who land IB, people returning to 1L SAs, or clerks, but the numbers should be pretty reflective of reality. So, the % of people who graduate without some sort of traditionally desirable private sector employment would probably be ~15%. I'd guess there's maybe 2-4 people who wouldn't touch the private sector with a ten foot pole, extrapolate to 4 sections so maybe 10-15 people so if you categorize it as % of people who graduated without traditional desirable private sector employment and also did not want PI from the start, I'd call it maybe ~10%.

EIP participation rate is nowhere near 90%. Strike out rate was 7% for the Class of 2018.

[Anonymous User]

Just some data for people having the strikeout debate.

Columbia admitted 437 for Fall 2016 including transfers. 329 offers were accepted at 2017 EIP. Assuming number of people who turned down all offers they received is negligible and EIP participation rate of ~90%. You have ~17% chance of striking out at EIP. ~75% of the class will get an offer out of EIP. Since 9-month biglaw numbers are probable ~80% and some people get no-offered/cold offered, maybe 5-7% of people will pick up biglaw after EIP. This doesn't even account for MBA who land IB, people returning to 1L SAs, or clerks, but the numbers should be pretty reflective of reality. So, the % of people who graduate without some sort of traditionally desirable private sector employment would probably be ~15%. I'd guess there's maybe 2-4 people who wouldn't touch the private sector with a ten foot pole, extrapolate to 4 sections so maybe 10-15 people so if you categorize it as % of people who graduated without traditional desirable private sector employment and also did not want PI from the start, I'd call it maybe ~10%.

EIP participation rate is nowhere near 90%. Strike out rate was 7% for the Class of 2018.

I do not think Columbia's BigLaw placement numbers are representative of the T14 generally lol. Paul, Weiss offered 84 CLS people last year (across all offices). That's ~20%...of the entire 2019 class.