If you could go to any firm in the country, where would it be? Forum

[longtimelurker123]

Boies. Same idea as ppl who choose Wachtell, but litigation.

I'd argue that Susman is closer to Wachtell than Boies.

[Anonymous User]

continued to "thrive" in that they are going up in Vault.

Off-topic but as someone that participated in the Vault survey, I just lol at people that give the Vault national rankings any meaning.

[Anonymous User]

continued to "thrive" in that they are going up in Vault.

Off-topic but as someone that participated in the Vault survey, I just lol at people that give the Vault national rankings any meaning.

I know. Hence the quotation marks. But their financials remain solid and they have done well in other “rankings”, which is equally dumb, I know. Just saying that in 13 people literally said constantly, including here, that they were the next Dewey. It was ubiquitous.

[Anonymous User]

Boies. Same idea as ppl who choose Wachtell, but litigation.

I'd argue that Susman is closer to Wachtell than Boies.

it's often hard to compare corporate and lit practices as we're doing here. Boies and Susman are both tops for lit, both way out of my league.

[Anonymous User]

Wachtell even for lit. They have a phenomenal litigation practice and they get paid the same as corp.

[gaddockteeg]

Boies. Same idea as ppl who choose Wachtell, but litigation.

I'd argue that Susman is closer to Wachtell than Boies.

it's often hard to compare corporate and lit practices as we're doing here. Boies and Susman are both tops for lit, both way out of my league.

Agree with both posters. But I think Boies compensation is fairly close to market except for small exceptions whereas Susman folks get "market shattering" bonuses more across the board.

[Anonymous User]

Boies. Same idea as ppl who choose Wachtell, but litigation.

I'd argue that Susman is closer to Wachtell than Boies.

it's often hard to compare corporate and lit practices as we're doing here. Boies and Susman are both tops for lit, both way out of my league.

Agree with both posters. But I think Boies compensation is fairly close to market except for small exceptions whereas Susman folks get "market shattering" bonuses more across the board.

No way Boies pays more than market in ‘small exceptions.’I have a few friends who are juniors there who make wayyyy more than me (I make market). Have heard same from other friends re their pay.

Susman $$ is next level. If you’re working with the firms that pay above market in NYC it becomes a pretty individual decision, which is why those firms names are popping up here.

[Anonymous User]

Wachtell even for lit. They have a phenomenal litigation practice and they get paid the same as corp.

I would not want to be an associate in litigation at Wachtell. The teams are hierarchical and there are barely any stand up opportunities for paying clients until senior partnership. Wachtell doesn’t have the bandwidth to take on the sorts of smaller commercial matters that give lawyers at e.g. Munger and Williams & Connolly terrific opportunities. Frankly, regardless of comp, I wouldn’t want to be a litigation associate at any corporate-focused firm.

Boies and Susman are definitely preferred. But at all these firms, your QOL is miserable. The point of this thread is not “where do I get paid the most.” That’s dumb.

[Anonymous User]

I'd go to one of the prestigious personal injury firms discussed in the other thread. Sounds pretty great. Likely close to biglaw money, no billing, and being in court/depositions all the time.

[gaddockteeg]

Boies. Same idea as ppl who choose Wachtell, but litigation.

I'd argue that Susman is closer to Wachtell than Boies.

it's often hard to compare corporate and lit practices as we're doing here. Boies and Susman are both tops for lit, both way out of my league.

Agree with both posters. But I think Boies compensation is fairly close to market except for small exceptions whereas Susman folks get "market shattering" bonuses more across the board.

No way Boies pays more than market in ‘small exceptions.’I have a few friends who are juniors there who make wayyyy more than me (I make market). Have heard same from other friends re their pay.

Susman $$ is next level. If you’re working with the firms that pay above market in NYC it becomes a pretty individual decision, which is why those firms names are popping up here.

I think if you read the abovethelaw (or maybe chambers?) article on Boies, it says that juniors do get paid more but that it levels out to market by 5th year.

[Anonymous User]

Boies. Same idea as ppl who choose Wachtell, but litigation.

I'd argue that Susman is closer to Wachtell than Boies.

it's often hard to compare corporate and lit practices as we're doing here. Boies and Susman are both tops for lit, both way out of my league.

Agree with both posters. But I think Boies compensation is fairly close to market except for small exceptions whereas Susman folks get "market shattering" bonuses more across the board.

No way Boies pays more than market in ‘small exceptions.’I have a few friends who are juniors there who make wayyyy more than me (I make market). Have heard same from other friends re their pay.

Susman $$ is next level. If you’re working with the firms that pay above market in NYC it becomes a pretty individual decision, which is why those firms names are popping up here.

I think if you read the abovethelaw (or maybe chambers?) article on Boies, it says that juniors do get paid more but that it levels out to market by 5th year.

If you really read the article, what it actually says is that a mediocre biller (2000 hours) will make above market as a junior and level out or be $5-10k below as a senior. But I'd be shocked if there were many 5th or 6th years at Boies billing under 2100 hours (at which point they are above market again).

[Anonymous User]

Boies. Same idea as ppl who choose Wachtell, but litigation.

I'd argue that Susman is closer to Wachtell than Boies.

it's often hard to compare corporate and lit practices as we're doing here. Boies and Susman are both tops for lit, both way out of my league.

Agree with both posters. But I think Boies compensation is fairly close to market except for small exceptions whereas Susman folks get "market shattering" bonuses more across the board.

No way Boies pays more than market in ‘small exceptions.’I have a few friends who are juniors there who make wayyyy more than me (I make market). Have heard same from other friends re their pay.

Susman $$ is next level. If you’re working with the firms that pay above market in NYC it becomes a pretty individual decision, which is why those firms names are popping up here.

Susman clerkship bonuses are next level. Susman end year bonuses are comparable to Boies and less than Wachtell. Susman (NY) is also even more competitive than Wachtell and Boies; they hire maybe 3-4 people each year, all off ridiculous clerkships.

[Anonymous User]

No way Boies pays more than market in ‘small exceptions.’I have a few friends who are juniors there who make wayyyy more than me (I make market). Have heard same from other friends re their pay.

Susman $$ is next level. If you’re working with the firms that pay above market in NYC it becomes a pretty individual decision, which is why those firms names are popping up here.

I've heard this as well.

If you really read the article, what it actually says is that a mediocre biller (2000 hours) will make above market as a junior and level out or be $5-10k below as a senior. But I'd be shocked if there were many 5th or 6th years at Boies billing under 2100 hours (at which point they are above market again).

I'd echo this, too. Even for this modest claim, the article was pretty thinly sourced. I wouldn't worry about compensation at Boies.

[gaddockteeg]

Boies. Same idea as ppl who choose Wachtell, but litigation.

I'd argue that Susman is closer to Wachtell than Boies.

it's often hard to compare corporate and lit practices as we're doing here. Boies and Susman are both tops for lit, both way out of my league.

Agree with both posters. But I think Boies compensation is fairly close to market except for small exceptions whereas Susman folks get "market shattering" bonuses more across the board.

No way Boies pays more than market in ‘small exceptions.’I have a few friends who are juniors there who make wayyyy more than me (I make market). Have heard same from other friends re their pay.

Susman $$ is next level. If you’re working with the firms that pay above market in NYC it becomes a pretty individual decision, which is why those firms names are popping up here.

I think if you read the abovethelaw (or maybe chambers?) article on Boies, it says that juniors do get paid more but that it levels out to market by 5th year.

If you really read the article, what it actually says is that a mediocre biller (2000 hours) will make above market as a junior and level out or be $5-10k below as a senior. But I'd be shocked if there were many 5th or 6th years at Boies billing under 2100 hours (at which point they are above market again).

Yeah but compare that to Susman and Wachtell: those guys are making 2X market for bonuses...

[AppraisalWaisal]

Buckley Sandler in DC. 1800 billable hours and above-market comp.

[Anonymous User]

Buckley Sandler in DC. 1800 billable hours and above-market comp.

Actually, since salaries went up last year, Buckley is "only" at-market now. Still only 1800 billables though which is pretty sweet.

[Anonymous User]

No way Boies pays more than market in ‘small exceptions.’I have a few friends who are juniors there who make wayyyy more than me (I make market). Have heard same from other friends re their pay.

Susman $$ is next level. If you’re working with the firms that pay above market in NYC it becomes a pretty individual decision, which is why those firms names are popping up here.

I think if you read the abovethelaw (or maybe chambers?) article on Boies, it says that juniors do get paid more but that it levels out to market by 5th year.

If you really read the article, what it actually says is that a mediocre biller (2000 hours) will make above market as a junior and level out or be $5-10k below as a senior. But I'd be shocked if there were many 5th or 6th years at Boies billing under 2100 hours (at which point they are above market again).

Yeah but compare that to Susman and Wachtell: those guys are making 2X market for bonuses...

Again, this is not accurate. At Wachtell, your bonus is massive and outpaces the market many times over, up to and including 100% of your base pay. At Susman, you can expect a 2X market bonus, which is comparable to what you get as an average biller at Boies.

[jd20132013]

I thought wachtell didn't do 100 percent bonuses anymore

[Anonymous User]

Cravath, for 3 years. Then, anywhere else.

[Anonymous User]

I thought wachtell didn't do 100 percent bonuses anymore

From what I understand they went down to as low as 40% of base after 2008, but they've been back to ~100% bonuses for a few years now. I'd love to be corrected if anyone has firsthand knowledge.

[Anonymous User]

Boies. Same idea as ppl who choose Wachtell, but litigation.

I'd argue that Susman is closer to Wachtell than Boies.

it's often hard to compare corporate and lit practices as we're doing here. Boies and Susman are both tops for lit, both way out of my league.

Munger Tolles?

[Anonymous User]

Cravath, for 3 years. Then, anywhere else.

Just curious. What would you plan to do after the 3 years?

[Anonymous User]

Wachtell even for lit. They have a phenomenal litigation practice and they get paid the same as corp.

I would not want to be an associate in litigation at Wachtell. The teams are hierarchical and there are barely any stand up opportunities for paying clients until senior partnership. Wachtell doesn’t have the bandwidth to take on the sorts of smaller commercial matters that give lawyers at e.g. Munger and Williams & Connolly terrific opportunities. Frankly, regardless of comp, I wouldn’t want to be a litigation associate at any corporate-focused firm.

Boies and Susman are definitely preferred. But at all these firms, your QOL is miserable. The point of this thread is not “where do I get paid the most.” That’s dumb.

I was a wachtell lit associate, the first part of your post isn't true. Most Wachtell teams are 2-3 associates and 1-2 partners. Junior associates are included in strategy sessions, client calls, and have responsibility for client management. Although Wachtell doesn't take small lit matters, they staff very very leanly so associates get a lot of experience. Associates are expected to perform like a partner.

The other parts of your post are well taken. I'd put WLRKs lit team against any other firm in the country, but it is definitely true that it takes a backseat to corporate. You're also right that QOL is miserable, but I definitely don't think it is dumb to go where you get paid the most, particularly if you're going to get paid significantly more than you would at other firms and then have better exit opportunities. For example, many young litigators' dream job is AUSA. WLRK is a main feeder to the most prestigious USAOs in the country.

[Anonymous User]

Wachtell even for lit. They have a phenomenal litigation practice and they get paid the same as corp.

I would not want to be an associate in litigation at Wachtell. The teams are hierarchical and there are barely any stand up opportunities for paying clients until senior partnership. Wachtell doesn’t have the bandwidth to take on the sorts of smaller commercial matters that give lawyers at e.g. Munger and Williams & Connolly terrific opportunities. Frankly, regardless of comp, I wouldn’t want to be a litigation associate at any corporate-focused firm.

Boies and Susman are definitely preferred. But at all these firms, your QOL is miserable. The point of this thread is not “where do I get paid the most.” That’s dumb.

I was a wachtell lit associate, the first part of your post isn't true. Most Wachtell teams are 2-3 associates and 1-2 partners. Junior associates are included in strategy sessions, client calls, and have responsibility for client management. Although Wachtell doesn't take small lit matters, they staff very very leanly so associates get a lot of experience. Associates are expected to perform like a partner.

The other parts of your post are well taken. I'd put WLRKs lit team against any other firm in the country, but it is definitely true that it takes a backseat to corporate. You're also right that QOL is miserable, but I definitely don't think it is dumb to go where you get paid the most, particularly if you're going to get paid significantly more than you would at other firms and then have better exit opportunities. For example, many young litigators' dream job is AUSA. WLRK is a main feeder to the most prestigious USAOs in the country.

Lean staffing =/= in court argument and related opportunities for associates. No one denies that Wachtell is leanly staffed. That just means each associate is doing a shitload of work. The point is, a seenior associate at Wachtell will have taken fewer depositions, fewer witnessed, argued fewer motions, and been the client contact responsible for the strategic planning on fewer matters than an associate in the same class year at litigation-focused shops.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath, for 3 years. Then, anywhere else.

Just curious. You could achieve the same objectives after working for 3 years at Wachtell at much greater compensation and prestige. Why Cravath?