Believing that law school grades represent chances of success in practice is a wildly racist belief Forum

[TheLaw2015]

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[yost]

this is a new direction for you

df woke up today.

but im serious. black associates are not even a little bit worse. But they often way lower in their class. so i can only conclude law grades are entirely flame.

Are they really though? It doesn't seem like AA is that substantial at the law firm hiring level. The black people I know going to selective firms are on LR and prob had good grades (idk their grades). I know at least 1 black person who prob had low grades (cause was an annoying gunner 1L but stfu during 2L) and is going to a firm a non-black person at median could get.

my T14 had AA for LR too, so being on LR didn't really mean you had good grades if you were minority

Same with my t13. There is hardcore AA for LR

I'm genuinely curious, how is AA accomplished in practice? I always assumed write-on grading was very formulaic. Do minorities get extra "points"?

[dabigchina]

Do minorities get extra "points"?

Yes. That is indeed how it works.

Also, no grade on. I know a lot of people with ridiculous grades but no LR.

[shelob]

1-Black associates are not worse than white associates
2-Black students do worse on average in law school
3-Thus, school success is irrelevant.

LOL. The sky is blue, therefore racism. amiright?

Brave.

[dabigchina]

Those race horse issue spotters have gotta place a non-native English speaker at a big disadvantage

I know a couple of non-native speakers who grinded their way to top 10%.

But yeah, it's not easy for them.

[Anonymous User]

this is a new direction for you

df woke up today.

but im serious. black associates are not even a little bit worse. But they often way lower in their class. so i can only conclude law grades are entirely flame.

Are they really though? It doesn't seem like AA is that substantial at the law firm hiring level. The black people I know going to selective firms are on LR and prob had good grades (idk their grades). I know at least 1 black person who prob had low grades (cause was an annoying gunner 1L but stfu during 2L) and is going to a firm a non-black person at median could get.

my T14 had AA for LR too, so being on LR didn't really mean you had good grades if you were minority

Same with my t13. There is hardcore AA for LR

I'm genuinely curious, how is AA accomplished in practice? I always assumed write-on grading was very formulaic. Do minorities get extra "points"?

I forget the exact break-down of LR spots, but at my upper t14, it was something like 45% of the spots were pure grade-on, 45% were pure write-on, and 10% were based on "diversity" including personal statements. The diversity spots were irrelevant of your grades or write-on score

[los blancos]

Wait I didn't think there were really people who believed that LS grades were indicative of anything other than how good one is at LS exams. You're saying these people exist?

[bananatopia]

1-Black associates are not worse than white associates
2-Black students do worse on average in law school
3-Thus, school success is irrelevant.

An alternative possibility to point 3 is that:

a.) white students with higher grades make better associates, on average, than white students with lower grades; and
b.) black students with higher grades make better associates, on average, than black students with lower grades; but
c.) white students do not make better associates, on average, than black students, even though white students have higher grades, on average, because law school exams are biased against black students

For point c.) I don't mean 'biased' in the social or interpersonal sense, because law school exams are graded anonymously. I mean it in the predictive sense. I also don't mean that social or interpersonal bias against black students doesn't potentially contributing to the predictive bias. It could be the case that, if law school exams were predictively biased against white students in this way, law professors would have corrected it.

Your hypothesis seems just as reasonable as the hypothesis above, but I think it's worth noting that there is an alternative hypothesis under which law school grades would still be quite valuable for law firm recruiting.

[PeanutsNJam]

Wait I didn't think there were really people who believed that LS grades were indicative of anything other than how good one is at LS exams. You're saying these people exist?

like 99% of all recruiting committees across all law firms

[Anonymous User]

1-Black associates are not worse than white associates
2-Black students do worse on average in law school
3-Thus, school success is irrelevant.

No.

You are not racist if you think [person] is [negative attribute] because [person] is X, unless X = [insert race here].

I don't think anyone thinks black people do worse on average in law school because they're black. They think they do worse in law school because they aren't provided the same opportunities in preparation for law school as their white counterparts.

It's totally okay for someone to look at someone else's grades in law school, and then make a hypothesis about that person's future based on those grades.

We're allowed to hypothesize based on data. If that data turns out to be wrong or skewed, then our hypothesis was wrong or skewed. It doesn't make anyone racist. Relax.

[lavarman84]

I don't think anyone thinks black people do worse on average in law school because they're black. They think they do worse in law school because they aren't provided the same opportunities in preparation for law school as their white counterparts.

Ohhhhhh. Since they're black, they can't prepare for law school properly? Racist.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Wait I didn't think there were really people who believed that LS grades were indicative of anything other than how good one is at LS exams. You're saying these people exist?

like 99% of all recruiting committees across all law firms

Them choosing to use grades as a way to weed out applicants isn't quite the same thing.

[RCSOB657]

Okay… I agree that law school grades have a strong factor of arbitrariness, etc., but to expressly state that such a belief is wildly racist is just weird. I'm assuming your studying for ConLaw and running into some disparate impact cases??

I think OP is a law school grad.

Yeah, he's just a bored asshole sometimes.

I've always known him to be trustworthy. Loyal, helpful, fri belt, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

Did you really just quote..............

[Desert Fox]

Wait I didn't think there were really people who believed that LS grades were indicative of anything other than how good one is at LS exams. You're saying these people exist?

like 99% of all recruiting committees across all law firms

Them choosing to use grades as a way to weed out applicants isn't quite the same thing.

Yes it is. You wouldn't use grades to weed unless you thought it was at least a decent indicator.

[Desert Fox]

1-Black associates are not worse than white associates
2-Black students do worse on average in law school
3-Thus, school success is irrelevant.

No.

You are not racist if you think [person] is [negative attribute] because [person] is X, unless X = [insert race here].

I don't think anyone thinks black people do worse on average in law school because they're black. They think they do worse in law school because they aren't provided the same opportunities in preparation for law school as their white counterparts.

It's totally okay for someone to look at someone else's grades in law school, and then make a hypothesis about that person's future based on those grades.

We're allowed to hypothesize based on data. If that data turns out to be wrong or skewed, then our hypothesis was wrong or skewed. It doesn't make anyone racist. Relax.

I think perpetuating hateful ideas even if you are ignorant of their harm still contributes to institutional racism. Your ignorance isn't a hate pass. Sorry not sorry.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Wait I didn't think there were really people who believed that LS grades were indicative of anything other than how good one is at LS exams. You're saying these people exist?

like 99% of all recruiting committees across all law firms

Them choosing to use grades as a way to weed out applicants isn't quite the same thing.

Yes it is. You wouldn't use grades to weed unless you thought it was at least a decent indicator.

but also it's easy, sort of objective, and something people can agree on. Also inertia.

[Phil Brooks]

1-Black associates are not worse than white associates
2-Black students do worse on average in law school
3-Thus, school success is irrelevant.

No.

You are not racist if you think [person] is [negative attribute] because [person] is X, unless X = [insert race here].

I don't think anyone thinks black people do worse on average in law school because they're black. They think they do worse in law school because they aren't provided the same opportunities in preparation for law school as their white counterparts.

It's totally okay for someone to look at someone else's grades in law school, and then make a hypothesis about that person's future based on those grades.

We're allowed to hypothesize based on data. If that data turns out to be wrong or skewed, then our hypothesis was wrong or skewed. It doesn't make anyone racist. Relax.

I think perpetuating hateful ideas even if you are ignorant of their harm still contributes to institutional racism. Your ignorance isn't a hate pass. Sorry not sorry.

What hateful ideas were perpetuated in Anonymous User's post? Please directly quote the hateful idea.

[TheoO]

Wait I didn't think there were really people who believed that LS grades were indicative of anything other than how good one is at LS exams. You're saying these people exist?

like 99% of all recruiting committees across all law firms

Them choosing to use grades as a way to weed out applicants isn't quite the same thing.

Yes it is. You wouldn't use grades to weed unless you thought it was at least a decent indicator.

but also it's easy, sort of objective, and something people can agree on. Also inertia.

I imagine it also appeases clients who like to see the list of associates on a project all having ivies and various honors.

[elendinel]

Wait I didn't think there were really people who believed that LS grades were indicative of anything other than how good one is at LS exams. You're saying these people exist?

like 99% of all recruiting committees across all law firms

Them choosing to use grades as a way to weed out applicants isn't quite the same thing.

Yes it is. You wouldn't use grades to weed unless you thought it was at least a decent indicator.

but also it's easy, sort of objective, and something people can agree on. Also inertia.

I don't think any firm is thinking "I really want to know how good this student is at LS exams, let's rank him by GPA"; they're thinking "I really want to know how smart this student is likely to be; let's rank him by GPA." So it's pretty much is the same thing as assuming a kid is intelligent/dumb based on their GPA, isn't it?

It may be inertia/etc. that causes firms to keep using GPA as a measure of intelligence when it's not really a good indicator of such, but that doesn't mean they don't still use it as an indicator of intelligence.

[Barrred]

black associates are not even a little bit worse.

Your syllogism seems premised on a pretty racist assumption that black biglaw associates are less academically qualified than their white peers, based on the fact that black law students have lower GPAs on average than their white classmates. It can be simultaneously true that black law students are less academically qualified on average than their white classmates, but that black biglaw associates are not similarly less academically qualified on average than their white colleagues. Are there any statistics that bear out your (conflated) premise?

The bigotry of low expectations is strong in this one.

[cheaptilts]

black associates are not even a little bit worse.

Your syllogism seems premised on a pretty racist assumption that black biglaw associates are less academically qualified than their white peers, based on the fact that black law students have lower GPAs on average than their white classmates. It can be simultaneously true that black law students are less academically qualified on average than their white classmates, but that black biglaw associates are not similarly less academically qualified on average than their white colleagues. Are there any statistics that bear out your (conflated) premise?

The bigotry of low expectations is strong in this one.

Black biglaw associates do do, on average, have lower grades than their white colleagues. There are way more (actual) racist shit being said in this thread (aside from DF's usual race-baiting), but this is just true.

[Barrred]

black associates are not even a little bit worse.

Your syllogism seems premised on a pretty racist assumption that black biglaw associates are less academically qualified than their white peers, based on the fact that black law students have lower GPAs on average than their white classmates. It can be simultaneously true that black law students are less academically qualified on average than their white classmates, but that black biglaw associates are not similarly less academically qualified on average than their white colleagues. Are there any statistics that bear out your (conflated) premise?

The bigotry of low expectations is strong in this one.

Black biglaw associates do do, on average, have lower grades than their white colleagues. There are way more (actual) racist shit being said in this thread (aside from DF's usual race-baiting), but this is just true.

I guess my question is how do you know this is true? Are we basing this on anecdotal evidence? I am willing to accept that there is good statistical evidence out there for the premise that black law students have lower GPAs on average than their white classmates, but it seems to me that doesn't necessarily translate to black biglaw associates having similarly lower relative GPAs, because the biglaw associates are only a small subset of all law students. If it is true, as you say, it would be interesting to know if the relative GPA gap is proportional between associates and law students, or if the gap diminishes at the biglaw associate level (to the point of becoming de minimis perhaps?)

I think its always a good practice to question syllogistic premises (especially when the conclusion is labeling labeling someone a racist)

[cheaptilts]

black associates are not even a little bit worse.

Your syllogism seems premised on a pretty racist assumption that black biglaw associates are less academically qualified than their white peers, based on the fact that black law students have lower GPAs on average than their white classmates. It can be simultaneously true that black law students are less academically qualified on average than their white classmates, but that black biglaw associates are not similarly less academically qualified on average than their white colleagues. Are there any statistics that bear out your (conflated) premise?

The bigotry of low expectations is strong in this one.

Black biglaw associates do do, on average, have lower grades than their white colleagues. There are way more (actual) racist shit being said in this thread (aside from DF's usual race-baiting), but this is just true.

I guess my question is how do you know this is true? Are we basing this on anecdotal evidence? I am willing to accept that there is good statistical evidence out there for the premise that black law students have lower GPAs on average than their white classmates, but it seems to me that doesn't necessarily translate to black biglaw associates having similarly lower relative GPAs, because the biglaw associates are only a small subset of all law students. If it is true, as you say, it would be interesting to know if the relative GPA gap is proportional between associates and law students, or if the gap diminishes at the biglaw associate level (to the point of becoming de minimis perhaps?)

I think its always a good practice to question syllogistic premises (especially when the conclusion is labeling labeling someone a racist)

If you go to a T14, are African-American, and have been through OCI, you know.

[Barrred]

If you go to a T14, are African-American, and have been through OCI, you know.

So anecdotal?

[cheaptilts]

If you go to a T14, are African-American, and have been through OCI, you know.

So anecdotal?

Yes.