Religious Stuff Forum

Nebby · Post by **Nebby** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:39 am

Phil Brooks wrote:Whoa whoa whoa! Sorry I obviously gave the wrong impression. What I was trying to elicit is the answer to this question: Is what matters whether or not the request is reasonable? Or is all that matters the fact that the request is religious?

If someone asked for a longer lunch on Fridays because of child care obligations, surely that request should be accommodated just like one for religious observance, right? Neither having kids nor observing a religion is an immutable characteristic.

An employer must accommodate religious beliefs unless doing so would pose an undue hardship.

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:01 am

Free exercise is protected by the constitution and by employment discrimination law. Having kids isn't. (Maybe it should be, but I'm surprised you'd even draw that analogy.) So no, employers don't have to accommodate your childcare preferences but they have to accommodate do your religious practice, unless it's an undue hardship. In some jobs not working on Friday would be an undue hardship, in others (like retail or food service where presumably you can work the weekend instead) it wouldn't.

(I thought I remembered "undue hardship" being a pretty low burden but I could be mixing these up - what is it that you only need to accommodate if the burden is de minimis? Disability? Or am I remembering wrong?)

Nebby · Post by **Nebby** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:06 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Free exercise is protected by the constitution and by employment discrimination law. Having kids isn't. (Maybe it should be, but I'm surprised you'd even draw that analogy.) So no, employers don't have to accommodate your childcare preferences but they have to accommodate do your religious practice, unless it's an undue hardship. In some jobs not working on Friday would be an undue hardship, in others (like retail or food service where presumably you can work the weekend instead) it wouldn't.

(I thought I remembered "undue hardship" being a pretty low burden but I could be mixing these up - what is it that you only need to accommodate if the burden is de minimis? Disability? Or am I remembering wrong?)

It appears (I am not expert) that the reasonable accommodation doctrine from the ADA is similar to the reasonable accommodation doctrine of Title VII's protection from religion discrimination in the workplace.

Phil Brooks · Post by **Phil Brooks** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:43 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Free exercise is protected by the constitution and by employment discrimination law. Having kids isn't. (Maybe it should be, but I'm surprised you'd even draw that analogy.) So no, employers don't have to accommodate your childcare preferences but they have to accommodate do your religious practice, unless it's an undue hardship. In some jobs not working on Friday would be an undue hardship, in others (like retail or food service where presumably you can work the weekend instead) it wouldn't.

(I thought I remembered "undue hardship" being a pretty low burden but I could be mixing these up - what is it that you only need to accommodate if the burden is de minimis? Disability? Or am I remembering wrong?)

There are millions of people in this country, I among them, and many other countries in the world, who do not feel that that the force of law should be used to privilege the choice to be part of a religion over other laudable choices.

Nebby · Post by **Nebby** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:54 am

Phil Brooks wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Free exercise is protected by the constitution and by employment discrimination law. Having kids isn't. (Maybe it should be, but I'm surprised you'd even draw that analogy.) So no, employers don't have to accommodate your childcare preferences but they have to accommodate do your religious practice, unless it's an undue hardship. In some jobs not working on Friday would be an undue hardship, in others (like retail or food service where presumably you can work the weekend instead) it wouldn't.

(I thought I remembered "undue hardship" being a pretty low burden but I could be mixing these up - what is it that you only need to accommodate if the burden is de minimis? Disability? Or am I remembering wrong?)
There are millions of people in this country, I among them, and many other countries in the world, who do not feel that that the force of law should be used to privilege the choice to be part of a religion over other laudable choices.

You should probably stop huffing so many farts

Phil Brooks · Post by **Phil Brooks** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:11 pm

Nebby wrote:
Phil Brooks wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Free exercise is protected by the constitution and by employment discrimination law. Having kids isn't. (Maybe it should be, but I'm surprised you'd even draw that analogy.) So no, employers don't have to accommodate your childcare preferences but they have to accommodate do your religious practice, unless it's an undue hardship. In some jobs not working on Friday would be an undue hardship, in others (like retail or food service where presumably you can work the weekend instead) it wouldn't.

(I thought I remembered "undue hardship" being a pretty low burden but I could be mixing these up - what is it that you only need to accommodate if the burden is de minimis? Disability? Or am I remembering wrong?)
There are millions of people in this country, I among them, and many other countries in the world, who do not feel that that the force of law should be used to privilege the choice to be part of a religion over other laudable choices.
You should probably stop huffing so many farts

Wonderful analytical, fact-based, incisive, logical response.

jchiles · Post by **jchiles** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:14 pm

Phil Brooks wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Phil Brooks wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Free exercise is protected by the constitution and by employment discrimination law. Having kids isn't. (Maybe it should be, but I'm surprised you'd even draw that analogy.) So no, employers don't have to accommodate your childcare preferences but they have to accommodate do your religious practice, unless it's an undue hardship. In some jobs not working on Friday would be an undue hardship, in others (like retail or food service where presumably you can work the weekend instead) it wouldn't.

(I thought I remembered "undue hardship" being a pretty low burden but I could be mixing these up - what is it that you only need to accommodate if the burden is de minimis? Disability? Or am I remembering wrong?)
There are millions of people in this country, I among them, and many other countries in the world, who do not feel that that the force of law should be used to privilege the choice to be part of a religion over other laudable choices.
You should probably stop huffing so many farts
Wonderful analytical, fact-based, incisive, logical response.

What are "other laudable choices."

Nebby · Post by **Nebby** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:14 pm

You remind me of the worst neckbeards in my college atheist student organization.

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:07 pm

Phil Brooks wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Free exercise is protected by the constitution and by employment discrimination law. Having kids isn't. (Maybe it should be, but I'm surprised you'd even draw that analogy.) So no, employers don't have to accommodate your childcare preferences but they have to accommodate do your religious practice, unless it's an undue hardship. In some jobs not working on Friday would be an undue hardship, in others (like retail or food service where presumably you can work the weekend instead) it wouldn't.

(I thought I remembered "undue hardship" being a pretty low burden but I could be mixing these up - what is it that you only need to accommodate if the burden is de minimis? Disability? Or am I remembering wrong?)
There are millions of people in this country, I among them, and many other countries in the world, who do not feel that that the force of law should be used to privilege the choice to be part of a religion over other laudable choices.

Oh honey. First, that's a really contentious way to frame that. How about protecting people from being punished for exercising their religion? Second, no one was talking about what the law should be, but what it is, which is what you appeared to be asking about. Maybe I should have clarified that I was surprised a lawyer would be analogizing time off for child care and time off for religious observance, since it sounded like you thought they were legally equivalent, which they're not.

So to go back to your original question, first it needs to be religious, then the accommodation needs to not present a greater than de minimis burden to the business. If it's not a religious practice it doesn't get to the burden analysis. Because that is the way our law currently operates. Not sure how raising that here helps the OP figure out how to handle their summer job.

I do believe that employers should be more accommodating of child care needs/concerns, but that occupies a very different place in our legal system so analogizing to something clearly established as a constitutional right doesn't make a lot of sense to me. (Especially since that constitutional right really has fairly minimal protections in the workplace.)

(Also, Nebby, it is a de minimis standard - an employer doesn't have to accommodate if the burden will be more than de minimis. At least according to the EEOC.)

ur_hero · Post by **ur_hero** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:They'll fall all over themselves to accommodate you and pat themselves on the back for doing so. They'll probably publish an article about it on the firm website.

Not to mention that, unless you have a particular project/meeting going on from 1-2 PM, almost no one in Biglaw cares WHEN you do your work. People take two hour lunches and stay late/come early all the time. But of course your mileage may vary as a SA.

This.

Except, as an SA, this definitely has to be explained to whoever is distributing work to you or expecting something. Plus, people care about facetime for SAs. What I'm trying to say is, people may not care/notice if you disappear for several hours as an Associate, but not a risk you want to take as an SA who doesn't yet have a job/offer without making sure the right persons know first.

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:12 pm

Also FTR, I can totally see prayer on Fridays presenting only a de minimus burden to a biglaw firm. But I can also see it presenting a greater than de minimus burden in some jobs (you're the only employee at a sandwich shop whose owner needs to take advantage of the lunch rush or the like. Probably that wouldn't be covered under Title VII, but there are probably arguable cases).

My point being that the accommodations for religious belief probably aren't going to address most employees' child care needs.

ClubberLang · Post by **ClubberLang** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:53 pm

Phil Brooks wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Free exercise is protected by the constitution and by employment discrimination law. Having kids isn't. (Maybe it should be, but I'm surprised you'd even draw that analogy.) So no, employers don't have to accommodate your childcare preferences but they have to accommodate do your religious practice, unless it's an undue hardship. In some jobs not working on Friday would be an undue hardship, in others (like retail or food service where presumably you can work the weekend instead) it wouldn't.

(I thought I remembered "undue hardship" being a pretty low burden but I could be mixing these up - what is it that you only need to accommodate if the burden is de minimis? Disability? Or am I remembering wrong?)
There are millions of people in this country, I among them, and many other countries in the world, who do not feel that that the force of law should be used to privilege the choice to be part of a religion over other laudable choices.

Well, welcome to America. Deal with it or leave.

jd20132013 · Post by **jd20132013** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:12 pm

Phil Brooks wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Free exercise is protected by the constitution and by employment discrimination law. Having kids isn't. (Maybe it should be, but I'm surprised you'd even draw that analogy.) So no, employers don't have to accommodate your childcare preferences but they have to accommodate do your religious practice, unless it's an undue hardship. In some jobs not working on Friday would be an undue hardship, in others (like retail or food service where presumably you can work the weekend instead) it wouldn't.

(I thought I remembered "undue hardship" being a pretty low burden but I could be mixing these up - what is it that you only need to accommodate if the burden is de minimis? Disability? Or am I remembering wrong?)
There are millions of people in this country, I among them, and many other countries in the world, who do not feel that that the force of law should be used to privilege the choice to be part of a religion over other laudable choices.

Ok

Desert Fox · Post by **Desert Fox** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:26 pm

You'll be fine. Just explain the rules. Once you get working nobody will even know you are gone most of the time. Just block out the time on Outlook.

Though I think biglawyers who are in debt are excused because

One who is in debt and cannot repay his debt and therefore fears that he will be imprisoned, and who fears that he will be harmed by an oppressive ruler

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:55 pm

OP here

Thank you for the responses/voting. I feel a lot more comfortable doing this now

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:58 am

Similar question. Muslim who will be working as a SA at V100 firm. Ramadan will coincide with the program for the first 25 days, so I will be fasting. I'm trying to decide when and how I should let them know about this.... I just hope it doesn't make lunches or other social events awkward.

TheSpanishMain · Post by **TheSpanishMain** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:Similar question. Muslim who will be working as a SA at V100 firm. Ramadan will coincide with the program for the first 25 days, so I will be fasting. I'm trying to decide when and how I should let them know about this.... I just hope it doesn't make lunches or other social events awkward.

Man, that's tough. I don't think anyone is going to think less of you because of it, although they might feel sorry for you missing out on a bunch of overpriced food. Lunches are a big part of being an SA...I'd let them know why you're abstaining just so they don't assume you're antisocial or whatever.

Can you drink coffee/tea during Ramadan? If so I would make it a point to regularly ask people to get a cup of coffee with you. You want to make sure you're still interacting with everyone on a social level. 75% of getting an offer is just reassuring all the lawyers that you're not a weirdo.

Nebby · Post by **Nebby** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:26 am

TheSpanishMain wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Similar question. Muslim who will be working as a SA at V100 firm. Ramadan will coincide with the program for the first 25 days, so I will be fasting. I'm trying to decide when and how I should let them know about this.... I just hope it doesn't make lunches or other social events awkward.
Man, that's tough. I don't think anyone is going to think less of you because of it, although they might feel sorry for you missing out on a bunch of overpriced food. Lunches are a big part of being an SA...I'd let them know why you're abstaining just so they don't assume you're antisocial or whatever.

Can you drink coffee/tea during Ramadan? If so I would make it a point to regularly ask people to get a cup of coffee with you. You want to make sure you're still interacting with everyone on a social level. 75% of getting an offer is just reassuring all the lawyers that you're not a weirdo.

Depends on how conservative he is. My Arabic professor in college would sneak coffee during Ramadan but he said he technically shouldn't.

To the question, everyone will be familiar enough with Ramadan (or understanding enough) that they'll not think twice. You're probably not the only Muslim in the office observing Ramadan.

RaceJudicata · Post by **RaceJudicata** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:Similar question. Muslim who will be working as a SA at V100 firm. Ramadan will coincide with the program for the first 25 days, so I will be fasting. I'm trying to decide when and how I should let them know about this.... I just hope it doesn't make lunches or other social events awkward.

First off, I don't think this will be an issue at all. How many summers are in your office? If its more than a few, I'd try and schedule as many group lunches as possible, that way its not 1 v 1 lunch and the associate/partner is eating and you aren't. Then schedule any lunches with specific individuals during the part of the summer you are able to eat.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:28 am

Lmao- your professor snuck coffee durIng Ramadan?! That's a first lol.

Speaking from experience, fasting is much easier to deal with than disappearing for prayers every week (from an awkwardness perspective). Being able to work while fasting though, that's a challenge. I have scheduled at least two weeks of vacation every year for the past four years during Ramadan (obvioisly not possible as a SA). This year I'm going to try to do the full month at the office.

Nebby · Post by **Nebby** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:Lmao- your professor snuck coffee durIng Ramadan?! That's a first lol.

Speaking from experience, fasting is much easier to deal with than disappearing for prayers every week (from an awkwardness perspective). Being able to work while fasting though, that's a challenge. I have scheduled at least two weeks of vacation every year for the past four years during Ramadan (obvioisly not possible as a SA). This year I'm going to try to do the full month at the office.

He was a chill Jordanian bro. He'd also sneak a smoke during Ramadan

Bluem_11 · Post by **Bluem_11** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:49 pm

Never been a problem in any office I've been in***, just this week with Passover, all the practicing Jews have taken Monday and Tuesday off without a issue.

*** That being said, you're expected to meet your billing requirements and handle deadlines professionally, and if there is a massive conflict, anticipate it, and delegate work appropriately.

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