How to express that a firm is your top choice? Forum

[bk1]

Interviewer for a V-10 firm here (and firm ranking is irrelevant to this) and in the middle of a week of interviews.

Don't do this. You can show your interest by knowing the firm and it's strengths well, but anyone saying we are their first choice or even hinting that they would accept an offer would receive an immediate recommendation of no offer from me.

Wow. You seem insane.

OP: Although telling a firm that it is your top choice will not help you get an offer, it won't hurt. If you really want to let the firm know, send a follow-up message to the recruiter.

I dunno, I think the V10 person is overreacting but I generally don't like it when people say my firm is their top choice. It is a little desperate but, more to the point, it can come off a bit naive. You'd better have REALLY good reasons to have such a strong opinion of my firm or else it comes off like you don't really know what you're getting into. It's like when people talk about "dream" law schools or "dream" firms -- trust me, no firm will be that great, including mine. And I like my firm, but when I was deciding where to go, I weighed the pros and cons of each of my options and made a decision that inevitably felt like a compromise in some ways. IMO that's how adults make decisions about things. I never would have made the unequivocal statement that it was my "top choice" (even though it probably was).

My thoughts exactly.

[zot1]

Even for torture there's one method that beats the others.

[Anonymous User]

Wish I read this last night. Sent thank you emails to the people I interviewed with at my callback and for a couple I mentioned something along the lines of "X firm has always been my top choice throughout this process and meeting you all solidified that feeling." (It is my top choice btw) I also spent a lot of time debating whether or not to include that line but ended up sending it for a couple of the thank you notes anyways. Wish I didn't now.

[iteachtenthgrade]

Wish I read this last night. Sent thank you emails to the people I interviewed with at my callback and for a couple I mentioned something along the lines of "X firm has always been my top choice throughout this process and meeting you all solidified that feeling." (It is my top choice btw) I also spent a lot of time debating whether or not to include that line but ended up sending it for a couple of the thank you notes anyways. Wish I didn't now.

Honestly, it's probably fine either way. If they ding you just for that, they're assholes (like Mr. V10 up there!) and you don't want to work for them anyway.

[rpupkin]

Wish I read this last night. Sent thank you emails to the people I interviewed with at my callback and for a couple I mentioned something along the lines of "X firm has always been my top choice throughout this process and meeting you all solidified that feeling." (It is my top choice btw) I also spent a lot of time debating whether or not to include that line but ended up sending it for a couple of the thank you notes anyways. Wish I didn't now.

This is totally fine. Don't worry about it.

But stop sending thank-you emails.

[rpupkin]

Wish I read this last night. Sent thank you emails to the people I interviewed with at my callback and for a couple I mentioned something along the lines of "X firm has always been my top choice throughout this process and meeting you all solidified that feeling." (It is my top choice btw) I also spent a lot of time debating whether or not to include that line but ended up sending it for a couple of the thank you notes anyways. Wish I didn't now.

Honestly, it's probably fine either way. If they ding you just for that, they're assholes (like Mr. V10 up there!) and you don't want to work for them anyway.

The notion that you would be dinged for saying "your firm is my top choice" is TLS at its strangest. Yes, you can obviously find some sociopathic examples of interviewers who will irrationally ding you just for saying it (just like I'm sure you can find some anomalous examples of interviewers who would irrationally credit you for saying it), but, overall, this is not going to hurt you at all.

[Anonymous User]

It makes sense for some firms, but not for others. There are some generic firms where I would have felt like an idiot doing this, but for a firm like the one mentioned above (very proud of their legitimately "unique" attributes or firm structure) it makes some sense. I did this after a screener in a thank-you and got a callback, so it's not an auto-ding everywhere.

In other words, if you're doing this at Jones Day because they're "one firm" you're going to sound like a bit of a dolt.

If you're doing this at Susman Godfrey because you want to be at an excellent litigation boutique where you will have a say in firm management from day one, maybe it won't sound as naive.

(I don't know that much about Susman so forgive me if that's dumb, but you get the idea).

Also, disclaimer, I'm not an interviewer or anything.

if my screener was anything to go by Jones Day likes to feel special too. They asked me why jones day after talking about why I was interested in biglaw and my answer was basically "because you're a law firm." it wasn't great and they were obviously not impressed

[Wild Card]

Wish I read this last night. Sent thank you emails to the people I interviewed with at my callback and for a couple I mentioned something along the lines of "X firm has always been my top choice throughout this process and meeting you all solidified that feeling." (It is my top choice btw) I also spent a lot of time debating whether or not to include that line but ended up sending it for a couple of the thank you notes anyways. Wish I didn't now.

Honestly, it's probably fine either way. If they ding you just for that, they're assholes (like Mr. V10 up there!) and you don't want to work for them anyway.

The notion that you would be dinged for saying "your firm is my top choice" is TLS at its strangest. Yes, you can obviously find some sociopathic examples of interviewers who will irrationally ding you just for saying it (just like I'm sure you can find some anomalous examples of interviewers who would irrationally credit you for saying it), but, overall, this is not going to hurt you at all.

I suspect that there are mentally unstable people like V10 running around every firm: the idea is to avoid saying things that will set them off and also won't help you at all with those who are neutral on the matter.

[homestyle28]

There are ways to do this well, but they all hinge on honesty. If you know alot about the firm, and can earnestly say it during a CB, and the conversation heads that way, then you can do it. You can also couch it as a question towards the end of an interview "I'm really excited about the prospect of working here, what else can I say or questions can I answer to convey my enthusiasm." At my top choice firm I ended every interview with something along the lines of "I know it's sometimes easy in an interview to answer questions without always showing how interested I am in working here, so just in case it hasn't been clear in my answers, I just want to say I'd be thrilled to get an offer here and would be very excited to state my career." Sometimes followed with a joke about how I'd rather be awkward, but clear than leave with an impression that I didn't really want to work at that firm. It worked for me, but I think mostly because I meant it and any awkwardness was probably covered by the fact that it didn't sound like a used car salesman.

After a cb, if you felt like you wanted to say it at all, I'd probably say it to either a) an alum from your school, or b) the most Jr. person you interviewed with and trust their judgment whether to convey it on.

[Anonymous User]

Wish I read this last night. Sent thank you emails to the people I interviewed with at my callback and for a couple I mentioned something along the lines of "X firm has always been my top choice throughout this process and meeting you all solidified that feeling." (It is my top choice btw) I also spent a lot of time debating whether or not to include that line but ended up sending it for a couple of the thank you notes anyways. Wish I didn't now.

Nvm, just got an offer from the firm I did this for like 5 mins ago. Thank you all for the kind words.

[Anonymous User]

It makes sense for some firms, but not for others. There are some generic firms where I would have felt like an idiot doing this, but for a firm like the one mentioned above (very proud of their legitimately "unique" attributes or firm structure) it makes some sense. I did this after a screener in a thank-you and got a callback, so it's not an auto-ding everywhere.

In other words, if you're doing this at Jones Day because they're "one firm" you're going to sound like a bit of a dolt.

If you're doing this at Susman Godfrey because you want to be at an excellent litigation boutique where you will have a say in firm management from day one, maybe it won't sound as naive.

(I don't know that much about Susman so forgive me if that's dumb, but you get the idea).

Also, disclaimer, I'm not an interviewer or anything.

if my screener was anything to go by Jones Day likes to feel special too. They asked me why jones day after talking about why I was interested in biglaw and my answer was basically "because you're a law firm." it wasn't great and they were obviously not impressed

You're conflating showing an interest in a firm at a screener with telling that firm it's your top choice.

It's easy to sell basic screener-level interest in a firm. For Jones Day, you say you're interested in restructuring practices in New York and, Jones Day has a great reputation in that field. You then recite a little spiel about restructuring is and explain why you'd like to do it. That's enough for a screener. "You're a firm" is not enough.

There is a different standard to meet if you want to say a firm is your "top choice." You have to make a case for that firm being uniquely appealing.

It's much easier to make a case for a firm being your "top choice" when a firm is clearly and undoubtedly unique, in a way that law students can actually be expected to grasp. There are oddball firms that are proud of being oddball firms. Edelson comes to mind immediately. If you want to spend all day suing tech firms while wearing ripped jeans and making $150k base, there are not a lot of options. If you tell Edelson that they're your top choice because you want to sue tech firms and you work best in a casual environment, they are not going to be super skeptical about it. It's an easy sell.

There are a lot of firms that are not nearly as oddball-and-proud as Edelson. It would be much harder to sound genuine and smart while making a case that one of those particular firms is your "top choice."

But again, this is all IMO, doing this didn't wreck my chances of a callback but I have no idea if it actually helped, etc. etc.

[Anonymous User]

V-10 interviewer that everybody is hating on here. I should say that most interviewers have their own pet peeves, mine just happens to be this. I don't care if candidates don't have offers from elsewhere, because I'm looking for people who fit my firm and there are a lot of diamonds in the rough. I just don't like desperation and it is really hard to pull off point blank telling a firm it is your first choice without looking desperate.

Jumping all over me for having a particular pet peeve (even though I may deserve it) overlooks the point that there is a whole class of questionable interview behavior/responses that candidates should try to stay away from. I may sound harsh, but the truth is that firms make the harsh decision to turn down qualified candidates every day. We know that most people we interview (and probably at least half of those who submit resumes in the first place) could be successful at our firm, and I am very aware that every reject could be destroying someone's dream and future, but we just don't have room for everyone. So we are left to make decisions for all sorts of reasons, some of which are justified and others, admittedly, may not be.

[rpupkin]

V-10 interviewer that everybody is hating on here. I should say that most interviewers have their own pet peeves, mine just happens to be this. I don't care if candidates don't have offers from elsewhere, because I'm looking for people who fit my firm and there are a lot of diamonds in the rough. I just don't like desperation and it is really hard to pull off point blank telling a firm it is your first choice without looking desperate.

Jumping all over me for having a particular pet peeve (even though I may deserve it) overlooks the point that there is a whole class of questionable interview behavior/responses that candidates should try to stay away from.

I said that you seemed insane. Let me defend that a bit.

Sure, everyone has pet peeves. I have mine as well. But you've converted your pet peeve into a dispositive filter: you wrote that "anyone even hinting that they would accept an offer would receive an immediate recommendation of no offer from me." It's the absolutism that makes you seem nuts. No matter how strong the applicant is otherwise, you'll immediately recommend they not be hired because they hinted that your firm is their first choice. Crazy.

I agree, of course, that you never know what kind of weird idiosyncrasies your interviewers might have. I knew a guy in law school who hated runners because his ex-gf was a long-distance runner. He was convinced that competitive runners were mentally ill, and he said that he looked forward to refusing to hire anyone who put "running" among their interests on their resume. This gentleman is now a senior associate at a V5 firm in NYC. Is the point of this anecdote to discourage law students from putting "running" down under Interests? Not at all. The point is that you if you tailor your application strategy to account for every bizarre pet peeve someone might have, you would submit a blank resume and sit in total silence during your interviews. At some point, you just have to trust your judgment and not freak out about every little thing.

[GoneSouth]

How to answer the question on a CB: "what other firms are you having CBs at?'' when I only have the 1 CB..

Lie. Absolutely freakin lie. But don't make it seem like you have a whole bunch...cause they might yield protect.

ETA: and if you are going to lie, make sure they are peer firms -- don't want to make it seem like you have all these top notch interviews and would never accept the current call back.

JFC, do not lie about this. Just say "I've enjoyed interviewing at a lot of firms around here, and I'm really glad to be interviewing here today. You know, I keep hearing from attorneys that callback season is getting earlier and earlier each year. Is that true?" If the person presses, I think it's fine to say "you know, I don't really feel comfortable discussing that, but I'd be very interested in hearing more about your work on x." (And if they're pressing on this, they're pretty rude.)

Obfuscate and redirect. Do not lie.

FWIW, I think it would be pretty much a deathblow to do this in an interview. No interviewer wants to feel like you're keeping stuff from them (unless there are legit confidentiality concerns, like from a summer job)

[nonever]

How to answer the question on a CB: "what other firms are you having CBs at?'' when I only have the 1 CB..

Lie. Absolutely freakin lie. But don't make it seem like you have a whole bunch...cause they might yield protect.

ETA: and if you are going to lie, make sure they are peer firms -- don't want to make it seem like you have all these top notch interviews and would never accept the current call back.

JFC, do not lie about this. Just say "I've enjoyed interviewing at a lot of firms around here, and I'm really glad to be interviewing here today. You know, I keep hearing from attorneys that callback season is getting earlier and earlier each year. Is that true?" If the person presses, I think it's fine to say "you know, I don't really feel comfortable discussing that, but I'd be very interested in hearing more about your work on x." (And if they're pressing on this, they're pretty rude.)

Obfuscate and redirect. Do not lie.

Ya...I'd still lie. Might not be ethical/correct/etc., but if a firm hears that you have zero call backs and are considering no other firms they will likely 1) think there is something wrong (why should we hire him/her if no one else will so much as give him/her a look), and 2) see you as desperate. Again, I don't think firms making these assumptions is a nice or appropriate thing to do, but it is reality.

The language I gave above is a variation on how a candidate replied to me asking how long they were in town for callbacks. (The first sentence was closer to "I've been out here for a little while, and I'm really glad to be interviewing here at X before heading home tomorrow.") Frankly, it made them look better than lying would have. I could kind of tell that they probably didn't have another callback in the area, but they handled it so gracefully (and truthfully) it stood out as a significant positive in our interview.

[Genius]

Interviewer for a V-10 firm here (and firm ranking is irrelevant to this) and in the middle of a week of interviews.

Don't do this. You can show your interest by knowing the firm and it's strengths well, but anyone saying we are their first choice or even hinting that they would accept an offer would receive an immediate recommendation of no offer from me.

Wow. You seem insane.

OP: Although telling a firm that it is your top choice will not help you get an offer, it won't hurt. If you really want to let the firm know, send a follow-up message to the recruiter.

I agree this interviewer is a little harsh and misguided. I was referring to sending a thank you letter not that expressing strong interest is bad.

the guy already interviewed there which means the firm thought he had the minimum requirement/qualifications to work there. Why wouldnt you want a qualified candidate who actually wants to work at your firm? This isnt some crapshoot massmailer saying desperate things. He might be a bit naive but he should be as he is a junior. He will get broken in but id actually appreciate his enthusiasm.

[Anonymous User]

Other V10 interviewer here:

I really don't care if my firm is your top choice. How much you like my firm will be apparent by the questions you ask me. It comes off as insincere if you tell me it's your top choice, why did you tell me that? If you can say, in concrete terms, what is really attractive about my firm/department, that will show me that you are actually interested.

If asked where else you're interviewing, you should be upfront. I can tell when you're lying. Telling me you don't feel comfortable discussing that would be weird as fuck. Much better to say, "I had callbacks with Skadden and Debevoise last week" or "I interviewed at Wilson Sonsini a couple of days ago" than try to spin it or evade.

As lawyers, you're going to need to learn to state facts in a way that isn't disadvantageous to you, and answering difficult interview questions is a taste of that.

[Anonymous User]

If asked where else you're interviewing, you should be upfront. I can tell when you're lying. Telling me you don't feel comfortable discussing that would be weird as fuck. Much better to say, "I had callbacks with Skadden and Debevoise last week" or "I interviewed at Wilson Sonsini a couple of days ago" than try to spin it or evade.

As lawyers, you're going to need to learn to state facts in a way that isn't disadvantageous to you, and answering difficult interview questions is a taste of that.

lol, I would straight up say to you, "OCS has advised us not to show our hands, if asked that question. I hope you'll understand if I take their advice."

And if you were rude enough to keep pressing me or to ding me for not bending to your power play, I wouldn't really want to work for you or your firm, august v10 interviewer though you may be. And I wouldn't feel the least bit weird about it.

Lawyers are the worst. Sure, you want to learn how to state facts in a way that isn't disadvantageous to you, but telling the opposite side to take a hike when they're trying to get you to show your hand in a negotiation must have its virtues too.

[dixiecupdrinking]

If asked where else you're interviewing, you should be upfront. I can tell when you're lying. Telling me you don't feel comfortable discussing that would be weird as fuck. Much better to say, "I had callbacks with Skadden and Debevoise last week" or "I interviewed at Wilson Sonsini a couple of days ago" than try to spin it or evade.

As lawyers, you're going to need to learn to state facts in a way that isn't disadvantageous to you, and answering difficult interview questions is a taste of that.

lol, I would straight up say to you, "OCS has advised us not to show our hands, if asked that question. I hope you'll understand if I take their advice."

And if you were rude enough to keep pressing me or to ding me for not bending to your power play, I wouldn't really want to work for you or your firm, august v10 interviewer though you may be. And I wouldn't feel the least bit weird about it.

Lawyers are the worst. Sure, you want to learn how to state facts in a way that isn't disadvantageous to you, but telling the opposite side to take a hike when they're trying to get you to show your hand in a negotiation must have its virtues too.

FWIW, I don't often ask candidates where else they are interviewing, but if I do it's generally because I like them and want to subtly sell why we are different/better than their other options.

[rpupkin]

If asked where else you're interviewing, you should be upfront. I can tell when you're lying. Telling me you don't feel comfortable discussing that would be weird as fuck. Much better to say, "I had callbacks with Skadden and Debevoise last week" or "I interviewed at Wilson Sonsini a couple of days ago" than try to spin it or evade.

As lawyers, you're going to need to learn to state facts in a way that isn't disadvantageous to you, and answering difficult interview questions is a taste of that.

lol, I would straight up say to you, "OCS has advised us not to show our hands, if asked that question. I hope you'll understand if I take their advice."

OCS advised you "not to show you hand?" Huh? If OCS really did advise you to say that, they're doing you a disservice. It's just a weird thing to say.

[rpupkin]

FWIW, I don't often ask candidates where else they are interviewing, but if I do it's generally because I like them and want to subtly sell why we are different/better than their other options.

Same here.

[bk1]

OCS advised you "not to show you hand?" Huh? If OCS really did advise you to say that, they're doing you a disservice. It's just a weird thing to say.

+1

[Anonymous User]

If asked where else you're interviewing, you should be upfront. I can tell when you're lying. Telling me you don't feel comfortable discussing that would be weird as fuck. Much better to say, "I had callbacks with Skadden and Debevoise last week" or "I interviewed at Wilson Sonsini a couple of days ago" than try to spin it or evade.

As lawyers, you're going to need to learn to state facts in a way that isn't disadvantageous to you, and answering difficult interview questions is a taste of that.

lol, I would straight up say to you, "OCS has advised us not to show our hands, if asked that question. I hope you'll understand if I take their advice."

And if you were rude enough to keep pressing me or to ding me for not bending to your power play, I wouldn't really want to work for you or your firm, august v10 interviewer though you may be. And I wouldn't feel the least bit weird about it.

Lawyers are the worst. Sure, you want to learn how to state facts in a way that isn't disadvantageous to you, but telling the opposite side to take a hike when they're trying to get you to show your hand in a negotiation must have its virtues too.

Attorney you were responding to here:

Please tell me you are trolling. Actually difficult to imagine people talk like this.

When I ask the "where are you interviewing" question, it's generally because I want to see where you're going and emphasize some positive aspect of our firm, "Oh, you're interviewing with Latham's [x] department? Good group of folks, we see them often on our deals. One thing I might emphasize about our firm that you might not get at other places is [y]"

Some bizarre outburst about "not showing your hand" "as advised by OCS" would be a huge favor to me in previewing how completely unsuited for a business environment a candidate is.

[Anonymous User]

Insane V-10 interviewer here with a retraction. Someone actually told me my firm was his first choice yesterday and, contrary to what I suggested in this thread, it didn't become an automatic rejection for him. He started off by showing that he really knew the differences between us and the firms he was interviewing with and then mentioned we were his top choice in passing. It was well done and I could not in good faith ding him for it. I guess I'll humbly retract and say that if you can pull it off without sounding desperate (which I don't most people can pull off) then it's fine.

I do wish I had the authority to whip an offer out of my pocket to anyone who says this in the future - I would love to make them stand behind their claims.

[Genius]

V-10 interviewer that everybody is hating on here. I should say that most interviewers have their own pet peeves, mine just happens to be this. I don't care if candidates don't have offers from elsewhere, because I'm looking for people who fit my firm and there are a lot of diamonds in the rough. I just don't like desperation and it is really hard to pull off point blank telling a firm it is your first choice without looking desperate.

Jumping all over me for having a particular pet peeve (even though I may deserve it) overlooks the point that there is a whole class of questionable interview behavior/responses that candidates should try to stay away from.

I said that you seemed insane. Let me defend that a bit.

Sure, everyone has pet peeves. I have mine as well. But you've converted your pet peeve into a dispositive filter: you wrote that "anyone even hinting that they would accept an offer would receive an immediate recommendation of no offer from me." It's the absolutism that makes you seem nuts. No matter how strong the applicant is otherwise, you'll immediately recommend they not be hired because they hinted that your firm is their first choice. Crazy.

I agree, of course, that you never know what kind of weird idiosyncrasies your interviewers might have. I knew a guy in law school who hated runners because his ex-gf was a long-distance runner. He was convinced that competitive runners were mentally ill, and he said that he looked forward to refusing to hire anyone who put "running" among their interests on their resume. This gentleman is now a senior associate at a V5 firm in NYC. Is the point of this anecdote to discourage law students from putting "running" down under Interests? Not at all. The point is that you if you tailor your application strategy to account for every bizarre pet peeve someone might have, you would submit a blank resume and sit in total silence during your interviews. At some point, you just have to trust your judgment and not freak out about every little thing.

What's sad is you had to explain this to a presumably grown man. What shitty luck innocent youngsters have meeting this v10 dude as their interviewer. One more weird shit to worry about.