DOJ Honors 2016-2017 Cycle: Application Status Tracker in the OP - Please update! Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm very interested in the Criminal Division. Is it as competitive as Civil and Civil Rights, or less so? Which Criminal sections are considered most competitive/prestigious?

I interviewed with Crim Div last year (but didn't get an offer). I can't speak to its relative competitiveness with Civ Div or Civil Rights (I didn't rank either), but I was top 10% with LR at a T20, and I was coming out of a flyover district court clerkship. I know that Public Integrity, CCIPS, Fraud, and the Appellate Section are pretty desirable. During my interview, though, they stated that we would rank our preferred sections after receiving an offer (and most hires are placed in their number-one choice). They did ask which sections interested me, though. I don't know if your answer to that question has any effect on your candidacy.

[Anonymous User]

I'm very interested in the Criminal Division. Is it as competitive as Civil and Civil Rights, or less so? Which Criminal sections are considered most competitive/prestigious?

I interviewed with Crim Div last year (but didn't get an offer). I can't speak to its relative competitiveness with Civ Div or Civil Rights (I didn't rank either), but I was top 10% with LR at a T20, and I was coming out of a flyover district court clerkship. I know that Public Integrity, CCIPS, Fraud, and the Appellate Section are pretty desirable. During my interview, though, they stated that we would rank our preferred sections after receiving an offer (and most hires are placed in their number-one choice). They did ask which sections interested me, though. I don't know if your answer to that question has any effect on your candidacy.

Did you have any prosecution or trial experience? To DOJ attorneys lurking: how important is having prior trial experience when applying to a trial-heavy section like Crim?

[deuceindc]

I doubt that the lack of trial experience will hurt you. From speaking with a new Crim Division attorney recently, I learned that their training includes 6 months at the USAO in EDVA to get trial experience. Sounded like they expect you to have zero trials/hearings under your belt.

[Anonymous User]

I'm very interested in the Criminal Division. Is it as competitive as Civil and Civil Rights, or less so? Which Criminal sections are considered most competitive/prestigious?

I interviewed with Crim Div last year (but didn't get an offer). I can't speak to its relative competitiveness with Civ Div or Civil Rights (I didn't rank either), but I was top 10% with LR at a T20, and I was coming out of a flyover district court clerkship. I know that Public Integrity, CCIPS, Fraud, and the Appellate Section are pretty desirable. During my interview, though, they stated that we would rank our preferred sections after receiving an offer (and most hires are placed in their number-one choice). They did ask which sections interested me, though. I don't know if your answer to that question has any effect on your candidacy.

Did you have any prosecution or trial experience? To DOJ attorneys lurking: how important is having prior trial experience when applying to a trial-heavy section like Crim?

I did my 1L summer at a DA's office, but I had never appeared in court or anything.

[lavarman84]

So, I can't answer all of those questions about my stats without outing myself. That said, if you want, I can PM you with more specific info.

As to your ranking question, it really depends on the component. Some of the USAOs don't require that you rank them first. I hear that CrimDiv likes to be ranked first but, interestingly, AFMLS doesn't need either CrimDiv or AFMLS to be ranked first so long as you express genuine interest. I've heard, either first-hand from people with a say or through the government attorney grapevine, that CRT, App., Fed. Programs, and NSD prefer to be ranked first, too.

Tax definitely seems to prefer a demonstrated interest/experience in tax law. I am under the impression that ATR does, too, though I'm not sure how hard and fast that preference is.

This might be a stupid question. But what do you do if you have no idea what you want to do?

I'm a soon-to-be 3L who will be clerking after graduation. I have no idea what I want to do, but I am interested in applying to DOJ honors after my clerkship. Am I screwed if there's no true demonstrated interest on my resume? Should I look to intern with the USAO or something as a 3L just to cover my ass?

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, I think most AUSAs I know interned at a USAO at some point. I think they like to see that kind of experience (though I'm not saying it's either necessary or sufficient).

Clerking helps, if DCt (it's a good way to get trial-adjacent experience, even though it's not the same as doing trials). Or of course COA is good if you're aiming for an appellate division somewhere.

Honestly I think it's a question of looking through everything you've done and trying to find some kind of narrative that ties at least some of it to government service. You're going to have to write an essay on "why DOJ" and "why these components" so you will have to come up with something. Being able to write/talk about it convincingly is going to be half the battle (maybe more important than specific experience - I ended up at an USAO but had no criminal aspirations through law school at all).

[Anonymous User]

Maybe a silly question, but Avue says, "List three professional references below," so would it be a mistake to list more than 3? Or does "list three" really mean "list at least three"?

[Anonymous User]

It means three.

[Anonymous User]

For those applying to USAOs through the honors program: the additional essays seem to be basically the same as the regular DOJ essays. How do you go about making the essays different? Do you have to? In other words, do the USAOs see all four essays or just the two you wrote for the AUSA positions?

[Anonymous User]

I'm pretty sure they see all the essays. The trick is to write "Why DOJ" in a way that addresses the other components you've ranked, and then write the USAO essays specifically to the USAO. I guess that's easier the more different your components are. But the "skills and experience you bring the to USAO"/"role of USAOs in society" (or however they're exactly worded) questions are a little different from "why DOJ/these three components" and "what else do you want DOJ to know," although there's potential for overlap. Also, don't feel you have to use every single word if you've said what you want to say - one of my essays was quite a bit shorter than the others.

[Anonymous User]

I'm pretty sure they see all the essays. The trick is to write "Why DOJ" in a way that addresses the other components you've ranked, and then write the USAO essays specifically to the USAO. I guess that's easier the more different your components are. But the "skills and experience you bring the to USAO"/"role of USAOs in society" (or however they're exactly worded) questions are a little different from "why DOJ/these three components" and "what else do you want DOJ to know," although there's potential for overlap. Also, don't feel you have to use every single word if you've said what you want to say - one of my essays was quite a bit shorter than the others.

Quote above. Do you (or anyone reading this) think there is any disadvantage in expressing interest in any available AUSA or DOJ position in any state? I'd be legitimately interested in hearing about any office that would consider me, but I don't want this blind interest to send any sort of negative message.

[Anonymous User]

I am a 2014 law school grad and a 2015 honors hire into civil div, commercial litigation branch. I'll lurk this thread in case I can weigh in on some people's questions.

Would clerking for a bankruptcy judge help chances of getting into the commercial litigation branch?

[Anonymous User]

Is there any value to listing a #2 division if all one's essays are specifically geared to the subject matter of a #1 division? That is, is there any likelihood of consideration from the #2 division in that circumstance?

[Anonymous User]

Is there any value to listing a #2 division if all one's essays are specifically geared to the subject matter of a #1 division? That is, is there any likelihood of consideration from the #2 division in that circumstance?

Do you mean components (the top-level three) or divisions within a component? Either way, my personal mantra is always to make the employer reject me, not to reject myself. If you only want to work for division #1, by all means only list one, but if you don't list a #2 or #3 you certainly won't get considered by them. It's not like actually listing 2 more divisions is any real extra work.

(I asked about components v. divisions because if it's components, your #2 may have component-specific essays where you can address stuff you don't want to put in the overall essays. But if you're talking about within a component that's probably not the case.)

[Anonymous User]

Is there any value to listing a #2 division if all one's essays are specifically geared to the subject matter of a #1 division? That is, is there any likelihood of consideration from the #2 division in that circumstance?

Do you mean components (the top-level three) or divisions within a component? Either way, my personal mantra is always to make the employer reject me, not to reject myself. If you only want to work for division #1, by all means only list one, but if you don't list a #2 or #3 you certainly won't get considered by them. It's not like actually listing 2 more divisions is any real extra work.

(I asked about components v. divisions because if it's components, your #2 may have component-specific essays where you can address stuff you don't want to put in the overall essays. But if you're talking about within a component that's probably not the case.)

Thanks, this is helpful. I am talking about components. My concern is that a second component would not give consideration to someone whose essays are necessarily targeted to their #1 component specializing in a particular subject area (e.g., tax, natural resources, antitrust, civil rights).

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, that's unfortunately the balance applicants are stuck trying to strike - how to appeal to different components at once. Again, there may be component #2 specific essays you have to submit, which would mitigate that, and I would also suggest addressing each component in your essays, the best you can. I got interviews with my first- and third-ranked components, and hired by the 3rd-ranked, so it's not impossible. (My 3rd-ranked component had separate essays so I didn't discuss it a great deal in the general essays, but I did include it.)

[Anonymous User]

This might be a stupid question. But what do you do if you have no idea what you want to do?

I'm a soon-to-be 3L who will be clerking after graduation. I have no idea what I want to do, but I am interested in applying to DOJ honors after my clerkship. Am I screwed if there's no true demonstrated interest on my resume? Should I look to intern with the USAO or something as a 3L just to cover my ass?

Not a stupid question at all. You know you want to apply to DOJ honors, so answer the question for them: why do you want DOJ honors? When you picture what that would look like, what d you picture yourself doing? Now, connect that vision to something on your resume or in your classwork. You don't need to have spent the last couple of years interning with a USAO or solely working in tax law or anything, you just need to explain to them why DOJ and why the components you ranked.

Yeah, that's unfortunately the balance applicants are stuck trying to strike - how to appeal to different components at once. Again, there may be component #2 specific essays you have to submit, which would mitigate that, and I would also suggest addressing each component in your essays, the best you can. I got interviews with my first- and third-ranked components, and hired by the 3rd-ranked, so it's not impossible. (My 3rd-ranked component had separate essays so I didn't discuss it a great deal in the general essays, but I did include it.)

I agree with this anon. I interviewed with all three of my ranked components, and my offers came from components 2 and 3. It is to your benefit to keep your essays broad enough to apply to anything you ranked, but specific enough to pique there interest.

[Anonymous User]

For ATR, does anyone know what the allocation of the DC slots (17) is to civil versus criminal litigating sections?

This.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, I'm currently a DOJ Honors attorney and know many people in my office and in other components who (1) did not graduate from a T14 and (2) did not clerk. However, almost all of these people either interned with their component beforehand or have something nice on their resume like great rank, super focused experience in the component's area, etc.

If you're gunning for USAO, expect the interview to be a half-day or all-day thing with multiple interviews, panel interviews, and possibly on-the-spot opening statements/closing arguments. Also be aware of some of the more popular cases that have come out of that district.

[Anonymous User]

So I"m going through teh app, and can you just not submit resume/cover letter/writing sample?

[Anonymous User]

So I"m going through teh app, and can you just not submit resume/cover letter/writing sample?

You put all the resume stuff (that doesn't fit into employment or schooling or whatever) in the additional information section at the end, and the essays serve the purpose of cover letter/writing sample. If you get an interview, you'll submit a resume and writing sample to the specific component that interviews you.

(Also by no means will all USAOs ask you to do impromptu openings/closings - I don't know anyone who's had to do that, though I can't say no one ever has, of course. The interviews I know of were 1/2 day affairs.)

[Anonymous User]

I am a 2014 law school grad and a 2015 honors hire into civil div, commercial litigation branch. I'll lurk this thread in case I can weigh in on some people's questions.

Would clerking for a bankruptcy judge help chances of getting into the commercial litigation branch?

Especially within the Corporate/Financial section of the branch, I think this would add a lot of value. They do a lot of bankruptcy work. They are kind of a small section compared to the others and I'm not sure if they always have a spot for honors. But I think the clerkship is helpful broadly across Commercial Lit because you have been exposed to so much business litigation in bankruptcy court.

[Anonymous User]

1) How are we expected to answer the whole "if you could tell one thing about yourself..." question? I don't know whether it should be more of a personal thing or how long it is expected to be etc... any thoughts?

2) I am awaiting bar results for July 2016 ( I failed July 2015). Will an offer be rescinded if I don't pass again? I am so concerned about this. I read that they will allow up to 14 months to become barred, but I wanted to know if that is a certainty or a case by case basis.

[Anonymous User]

1) Re: length, there's a character limit. You certainly don't have to use the whole space allotted, but the essays are their chance to evaluate your writing, so I'd write more than a paragraph. Personally, I used it to talk about one thing that I thought added to my candidacy (I talked about some pre-law school work experience), but it's pretty wide open. If someone asked you that in an interview how would you answer?

2) I knew someone who failed the bar and got to take it again. But I have no idea if that's a general policy or specific to her/one component or what.

[Anonymous User]

1) How are we expected to answer the whole "if you could tell one thing about yourself..." question? I don't know whether it should be more of a personal thing or how long it is expected to be etc... any thoughts?

2) I am awaiting bar results for July 2016 ( I failed July 2015). Will an offer be rescinded if I don't pass again? I am so concerned about this. I read that they will allow up to 14 months to become barred, but I wanted to know if that is a certainty or a case by case basis.

Re question 2: I am pretty sure that none of the components will have you start before fall of next year, so presumably you would have the opportunity to re-take in February, if necessary (though I hope it isnt!).