Froze out - what to do? Forum

[kaysta]

weapons-grade imposter syndrome here

but infused with unusual levels of narcissism/self-aggrandizement

OP belongs to subset of humanity that is tall and handsome

OP find a few other tall and handsome people, make signs, band together, fight this thing
dont let anyone tell you youre just pretty and dumb. youre also hung

[tyroneslothrop1]

Yeah I mean it sounds like the partner was trying to give you a nudge out the door but you were too dim to take the hint. I would never tell a summer I wanted to stay that, "well, you really under performed your credentials you might want to look elsewhere."

[Anonymous User]

Yeah I mean it sounds like the partner was trying to give you a nudge out the door but you were too dim to take the hint. I would never tell a summer I wanted to stay that, "well, you really under performed your credentials you might want to look elsewhere."

That wasn't really the tone of the conversation - was more about what the person had done, and was after the summer at a non-work related function. Seems way too clandestine to be a cold offer.

[NotMyRealName09]

Yeah I mean it sounds like the partner was trying to give you a nudge out the door but you were too dim to take the hint. I would never tell a summer I wanted to stay that, "well, you really under performed your credentials you might want to look elsewhere."

That wasn't really the tone of the conversation - was more about what the person had done, and was after the summer at a non-work related function. Seems way too clandestine to be a cold offer.

Well, cold offers are clandestine. And you said you "don't think" you were cold offered, and that "wasn't really the tone of the conversation.". Those are some significant qualifiers here. Early harsh review, no work, curious.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah I mean it sounds like the partner was trying to give you a nudge out the door but you were too dim to take the hint. I would never tell a summer I wanted to stay that, "well, you really under performed your credentials you might want to look elsewhere."

That wasn't really the tone of the conversation - was more about what the person had done, and was after the summer at a non-work related function. Seems way too clandestine to be a cold offer.

Well, cold offers are clandestine. And you said you "don't think" you were cold offered, and that "wasn't really the tone of the conversation.". Those are some significant qualifiers here. Early harsh review, no work, curious.

It's possible but I have heard cold offer stories, and they're generally pretty obviously cold - "we're afraid you'd accept if we give you an offer." To have a mixed mid-summer review, a glowingly positive exit interview followed by a non-hiring partner being commissioned by the firm to tell me they always weigh all their options before making any commitment at a dinner a week later is so passive aggressive that it seems like an unnecessary amount of work for everybody involved. It would be like if Oswald had a clear shot on Kennedy, but instead opted to funnel small traces of carbon monoxide into the white house over an 8 month period in hopes of him develop lung cancer.

[BaiAilian2013]

Sorry, double post / aborted post.

[84651846190]

Jfc

[Anonymous User]

Your communication skills are bad. Based on your posts, you either don't monitor your language with an objective ear or don't check your work, both of which will hurt you.

First year and pretty sure I'm being freezed out. I haven't really been getting placed on much since I've been here except for when shit hits the fan and the back of the bullpen is needed. I had a bad review focusing on low hours and some mistakes I made when I first started. The mistakes were bad, but others told me that my concern shouldn't be about the mistakes but that mistakes like that are a big deal.

I don't think I was cold offered. I had one really bad review at the beginning of my summer, but all good reviews after that and was told my reviews were outstanding at the exit interview. One partner I worked with a lot said she'd understand if I interviewed elsewhere because she knew I underperformed my numbers and had turned down a more "prestigious" firm based on fit, but the summer only reinforced my decision. However, I have felt like a communist during the McCarthy era since I started. Associates I worked with and clicked with as a summer have since left, and in retrospect I misunderstood the culture having only been exposed to people who likely did not fit into or like the culture. What I'm looking for are ideas on what I can do to develop and have a successful career.

That might be true, but I am interpreting the words used objectively. Your interpretation of this being a cold offer is based on adding words to the above that are not there.

[BaiAilian2013]

Your communication skills are bad. Based on your posts, you either don't monitor your language with an objective ear and/or don't check your work, both of which will hurt you.
E.g., what is even going on in this sentence:

The mistakes were bad, but others told me that my concern shouldn't be about the mistakes but that mistakes like that are a big deal.

Even given that, I am very curious what a summer associate could do to get a "very bad" review. So to your actual question, if you insist on sticking it out for as long as possible, maybe those are things to work on. However, consider whether other members of your "religious group" would be on the same page re: sticking it out, or if they would maybe tell you that as a member of this group, you also have a higher than usual need to look out for your own reputation. From the perspective of helping the group, you should also consider whether your reputation at this firm could be a lost cause, and if so what is the impact of sticking it out versus swift exit.

[Anonymous User]

Your communication skills are bad. Based on your posts, you either don't monitor your language with an objective ear and/or don't check your work, both of which will hurt you.
E.g., what is even going on in this sentence:

The mistakes were bad, but others told me that my concern shouldn't be about the mistakes but that mistakes like that are a big deal.

Even given that, I am very curious what a summer associate could do to get a "very bad" review. So to your actual question, if you insist on sticking it out for as long as possible, maybe those are things to work on. However, consider whether other members of your "religious group" would be on the same page re: sticking it out, or if they would maybe tell you that as a member of this group, you also have a higher than usual need to look out for your own reputation. From the perspective of helping the group, you should also consider whether your reputation at this firm could be a lost cause, and if so what is the impact of sticking it out versus swift exit.

If you're that interested it was related to hanging an oil painting of Vladimir Putin in my office, which was an issue only because one of the older partners had fled Stalin after spending five years in a Siberian work camp as a child. The thing is that Putin is different than Stalin, and I knew the partner would like him if he gave him a shot so I e-mailed him a new fact about Vladimir each day. They asked me to stop e-mailing the partner a week in, which was the bad review. Nevertheless, persistency is the key to success. By the time we got to fact 50, he came around and now has an oil painting of Vladimir in his office as well, which I painted.

[Avian]

To the extent a bad rep followed me, it's probably more related to people thinking I'm an asshole or my hanging an oil painting of Vladimir Putin in my office, which had been a good conversation starter all summer.

Is this a joke? If not, maybe you're not getting work because people think you're odd?

I don't have much to say about your situation because it's difficult to analyze whether you're building up a naturally slow period and lack of work into a conspiracy that everyone is freezing you out, or whether they actually are. Assuming you are actually being froze out you should definitely start exploring lateral options. As for your desire to avoid bringing disgrace on all "Mormons," you're not going to help that reputation by sticking around when they're trying to get rid of you. If you're right about being froze out, the firm would rather you fix whatever the problem is, or leave on your own accord. If you've done damage to the reputation of people that follow, it's already happened. Partners are not going to be like, "Oh that associate didn't do good work but at least he stuck around for several years instead of leaving so we could replace him."

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Anon's edits of the original posts are fucking with my head, man. It did NOT say anything about Putin when first posted. Don't feed the troll.

[Anonymous User]

This thread has indeed gone full troll. The OP changed his most recent post twice about why he/she got a really bad review. Either she/he got TWO really bad reviews or he/she just made stuff up.

[A. Nony Mouse]

If you really want advice, OP, crazy stories about emailing facts about Putin aren't helping you. (Which isn't to say that you have to share anything you're not comfortable with, of course - I'm not saying you have to say anything more about the bad review.)

[fauxpsych]

Posting from a bar to remind myself to read later.

[Mr. Peanutbutter]

I wouldn't staff an associate who used the word "freezed" either.

My first thought, too.

"Froze out" isn't much better though.

[Pokemon]

To the extent a bad rep followed me, it's probably more related to people thinking I'm an asshole or my hanging an oil painting of Vladimir Putin in my office, which had been a good conversation starter all summer.

Is this a joke? If not, maybe you're not getting work because people think you're odd?

I don't have much to say about your situation because it's difficult to analyze whether you're building up a naturally slow period and lack of work into a conspiracy that everyone is freezing you out, or whether they actually are. Assuming you are actually being froze out you should definitely start exploring lateral options. As for your desire to avoid bringing disgrace on all "Mormons," you're not going to help that reputation by sticking around when they're trying to get rid of you. If you're right about being froze out, the firm would rather you fix whatever the problem is, or leave on your own accord. If you've done damage to the reputation of people that follow, it's already happened. Partners are not going to be like, "Oh that associate didn't do good work but at least he stuck around for several years instead of leaving so we could replace him."

Op should stay and show his worth. Being good at biglaw is like being good in relationships and key to that is not giving up.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I wouldn't staff an associate who used the word "freezed" either.

My first thought, too.

"Froze out" isn't much better though.

LOL

"Frozen," OP. "Frozen." Third time's the charm!

[yogotti]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud63Xee8Mt4

Tenth Avenue Freeze Out?

and, the fact that people couldn't figure out oil painting of Putin was a joke makes me wonder about being a lawyer.

[Avian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud63Xee8Mt4

Tenth Avenue Freeze Out?

and, the fact that people couldn't figure out oil painting of Putin was a joke makes me wonder about being a lawyer.

Before that post was edited, it just said he put up a painting of Putin as a conversation piece, not the whole bit about emailing with a partner. I wouldn't have thought someone would slap an associate or do any number of idiotic things I've heard about summers doing. I thought it was probably a joke, but it was just plausible enough to be believable that a summer would think it was a good idea.

[NotMyRealName09]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud63Xee8Mt4

Tenth Avenue Freeze Out?

and, the fact that people couldn't figure out oil painting of Putin was a joke makes me wonder about being a lawyer.

Before that post was edited, it just said he put up a painting of Putin as a conversation piece, not the whole bit about emailing with a partner. I wouldn't have thought someone would slap an associate or do any number of idiotic things I've heard about summers doing. I thought it was probably a joke, but it was just plausible enough to be believable that a summer would think it was a good idea.

He was probably returning video tapes.

[smaug]

I wouldn't staff an associate who used the word "freezed" either.

My first thought, too.

"Froze out" isn't much better though.

LOL

"Frozen," OP. "Frozen." Third time's the charm!

There's a transisitivity issue there but not shocked you don't quite grasp that

[Mr. Peanutbutter]

"I think my boss is about to freeze me out."


"I can't believe she froze me out."

"That employee has been frozen out."

I'm assuming the thread title was referring to the latter.

[Anonymous User]

If you really want advice, OP, crazy stories about emailing facts about Putin aren't helping you. (Which isn't to say that you have to share anything you're not comfortable with, of course - I'm not saying you have to say anything more about the bad review.)

There's a 0% chance the bad review carried any weight. I can't go into why without being fact specific, but the gist of it is there was an assignment meant for 3 or 4 people only assigned to one, and then accidentally throwing the associate under the bus only to have that associate write the review. This only happens if you don't understand that law firms operate as a pyramid model, and is easily fixable. The question was so condescending and indicative of someone looking to say "the problem is you suck" so there was no sense in having a serious discussion.

Based on the reviews it's much likelier the work product made it look like I'd hit the ground running and be a billing machine, which led to my being getting too much work too quickly, and the skills needed for the intellectually stimulating work summers get not crossing over to the work junior associates do. There's also probably something lacking in how I present myself, because the feedback generally consisted of the reviewer being surprised, and in one instance shocked by the work product relative to expectations. On paper, turning in good work product shouldn't have been surprising so I'm obviously not coming across as intelligent, which is probably related to upbringing and personality. Most of the people I worked with as a summer have left, and most of my work has come from the same individual who I worked with as a summer. I've reached a point where I've basically taught myself about 3 years of material, but it's all academic and I need experience. I don't need an equal opportunity, but am still hoping that eventually I'll be treated as a boxer with one arm tied behind their back, which is all I need.

[smaug]

"I think my boss is about to freeze me out."


"I can't believe she froze me out."

"That employee has been frozen out."

I'm assuming the thread title was referring to the latter.

I'm saying "frozen" is passive and weird and "froze" is normally intransitive so people don't have great words for a past tense for a direct transitive action of freezing, probably because we don't directly freeze things.

Except me. I'm Mr. Freeze.