Dealing with anxiety/stress in Biglaw Forum

[20160810]

I know a few bad asses who graduated with me in 2012 and have already paid off loans despite SF COL. It can be done.

I don't think that's the reality for many people anymore. Columbia COA is 88k. That's already 240 before the interest. The math will never work on that if you are making 180k in a high tax high col place like NY or SF. So it's already going to take at least 4, likely 5 even if very disciplined. That's longer than the shelf-life of many associates and I think there are many people who would prefer to exit Biglaw with some cash and some debt, as opposed to zero for both. With PAYE, there is no chance you will go bankrupt, and all signs indicate borrowers will get further breaks and benefits.

Not saying you will ever come out ahead in terms of raw dollars, but with the possibility of a catastrophic downside removed, I think it can make sense to take your time. If you slow down and get a lower paying job you can really come out ahead by leaving with significant assets, and debt that is capped at 10% of income and will be forgiven. On the other hand, if you continue making great money, then you will lose a few dozen grand on interest over the years.

Maybe I'm recklessly chill but life is short and you only have your youth once. To the extent you expect to have a good career and continue making good money, I think 10k-50k extra in interest is a small price to pay to enjoy what should be some of the best years of your life. If you don't end up making good money...well you really shouldn't be spending hard earned income on debt that will eventually be forgiven. I'm not sure the best way to get rid of your loans is always to pay them down as soon as possible.

If that's what makes you happy, go for it. Certainly you've thought it through, so it's not like I can tell you something that you don't know. But I think for a lot of people, the feeling that they are hopelessly in debt, trapped in biglaw, and petrified that job loss is a financial life ruiner is a big part of the stress. Certainly the approach I took was to avoid living in places like SF and NYC and take a bit of a pay haircut to live somewhere the cost of living is much lower, which helped me a great deal financially. But even in large cities, you can do some serious damage to loans on the standard biglaw salary scale if you're willing to live in a shithole with roommates and eat a lot of rice.

[Pokemon]

I was on the try to lower your debt to manageable levels asap, but not with repaye, I do not think it is worth it. At the end of the day, when I leave big law I would prefer 200k in debt and 200k in savings, rather than 0 debt and savings.

[Anonymous User]

I know a few bad asses who graduated with me in 2012 and have already paid off loans despite SF COL. It can be done.

I don't think that's the reality for many people anymore. Columbia COA is 88k. That's already 240 before the interest. The math will never work on that if you are making 180k in a high tax high col place like NY or SF. So it's already going to take at least 4, likely 5 even if very disciplined. That's longer than the shelf-life of many associates and I think there are many people who would prefer to exit Biglaw with some cash and some debt, as opposed to zero for both. With PAYE, there is no chance you will go bankrupt, and all signs indicate borrowers will get further breaks and benefits.

Not saying you will ever come out ahead in terms of raw dollars, but with the possibility of a catastrophic downside removed, I think it can make sense to take your time. If you slow down and get a lower paying job you can really come out ahead by leaving with significant assets, and debt that is capped at 10% of income and will be forgiven. On the other hand, if you continue making great money, then you will lose a few dozen grand on interest over the years.

Maybe I'm recklessly chill but life is short and you only have your youth once. To the extent you expect to have a good career and continue making good money, I think 10k-50k extra in interest is a small price to pay to enjoy what should be some of the best years of your life. If you don't end up making good money...well you really shouldn't be spending hard earned income on debt that will eventually be forgiven. I'm not sure the best way to get rid of your loans is always to pay them down as soon as possible.

If that's what makes you happy, go for it. Certainly you've thought it through, so it's not like I can tell you something that you don't know. But I think for a lot of people, the feeling that they are hopelessly in debt, trapped in biglaw, and petrified that job loss is a financial life ruiner is a big part of the stress. Certainly the approach I took was to avoid living in places like SF and NYC and take a bit of a pay haircut to live somewhere the cost of living is much lower, which helped me a great deal financially. But even in large cities, you can do some serious damage to loans on the standard biglaw salary scale if you're willing to live in a shithole with roommates and eat a lot of rice.

Agreed. Not sure if you had/have PAYE or not, but I can honestly say I've never felt like my debt was hopeless or or a financial ruiner. At worst it's a 10% tax, which you can always afford to pay without significant additional hardship. But yea, I agree, if you don't have PAYE, or if you refinanced privately, or if you think the government will screw you out of the plan and it's a source of significant stress, then you should do whatever you can to pay it down ASAP.

Ultimately though you should be spending as little as possible, which I think is your bigger point. I'm of the opinion it can be more beneficial for some in the long run if they save, invest, or keep that cash as opposed to throwing every cent into loans, but either way you should be spending as little of your income as possible.

[Anonymous User]

I've been experiencing a debilitating amount of stress and anxiety lately. How do you guys deal with it? I think i'm just burnt out since its been non-stop for three months, but its really starting to affect my body and mind. I've never been an anxious person until I started this job and its been pretty bad, just non-stop work, no control over your life or free time. I'm not sure how much longer i'll last and my debt is still huge. Any advice would be great, especially since it is starting to really eat away at me.

[Eldon Tyrell]

Feel your pain, brother.

[Anonymous User]

lots and lots of cannabis

[kellyfrost]

Grizzly Wintergreen (Long Cut or Pouches)

Copenhagen Long Cut

[Anonymous User]

But seriously, the cannabis helps a lot

[dixiecupdrinking]

I've been experiencing a debilitating amount of stress and anxiety lately. How do you guys deal with it? I think i'm just burnt out since its been non-stop for three months, but its really starting to affect my body and mind. I've never been an anxious person until I started this job and its been pretty bad, just non-stop work, no control over your life or free time. I'm not sure how much longer i'll last and my debt is still huge. Any advice would be great, especially since it is starting to really eat away at me.

Take a vacation, a real one -- a full week, two if you can swing it. Go somewhere with poor cell reception and tell everyone you may not be available. Go look at some goddamn trees for a few days.

[Anonymous User]

But seriously, the cannabis helps a lot

Same anon as above. I actually smoke weed every single day and have for about 8 years (unless I needed to quit). I read that it can actually lead to more anxiety and stress and is an unhealthy way to deal with actual, real, debilitating anxiety so I made a point to quit and try to work out more. Granted, I quit yesterday, but want to give it time to see if it works. Just strange because I was ok for 2 months, then all of a sudden, started feeling burnt out, then a week later exhausted. I figured it was the job and some post-election fatigue but then full blown anxiety where i'm waking up at 5 am and can't sleep this past weekend. It's pretty scary, I feel useless and my SO i'm sure is getting sick of it.

Going on vacation next month, so hopefully that helps me out a lot. Also, just told a partner to unstaff me from a deal, so hopefully he does.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure how to delete and doublposted - sorry

[Anonymous User]

But seriously, the cannabis helps a lot

Same anon as above. I actually smoke weed every single day and have for about 8 years (unless I needed to quit). I read that it can actually lead to more anxiety and stress and is an unhealthy way to deal with actual, real, debilitating anxiety so I made a point to quit and try to work out more. Granted, I quit yesterday, but want to give it time to see if it works. Just strange because I was ok for 2 months, then all of a sudden, started feeling burnt out, then a week later exhausted. I figured it was the job and some post-election fatigue but then full blown anxiety where i'm waking up at 5 am and can't sleep this past weekend. It's pretty scary, I feel useless and my SO i'm sure is getting sick of it.

Going on vacation next month, so hopefully that helps me out a lot. Also, just told a partner to unstaff me from a deal, so hopefully he does.

Yeah I'm not sure about every day. I limit myself to twice a week and haven't noticed any discernible negative side effects.

[Anonymous User]

But seriously, the cannabis helps a lot

+1, helps to unplug

[Anonymous User]

I don't know if others have this reaction but the combination of not getting enough sleep and canabis can seriously impair your judgment even 24 hours later. I once used emojicons as a way of short handing facts against us and facts for us. Clearly this is retarded, and it seriously hurt my reputation. Neither one alone ever led to me being this stupid, and at the time I truly believed emojicons were a good call. I recognized the risk but justified it as a way of boosting team spirit.

It could have been subconscious rebellion or the fact putting factually relevant jokes on exams always seemed to benefit me, even on the bar but could be wrong. Nof to get all scientific but relaxing is really turning off the volume in your prefrontal cortex, which is the part of your brain that makes you monitor your behavior. The lack of sleep and marijuana each reduce frontal cortex activity so together your judgment may be totally inpaired without you realizing it.

[misterjames]

I don't know if others have this reaction but the combination of not getting enough sleep and canabis can seriously impair your judgment even 24 hours later. I once used emojicons as a way of short handing facts against us and facts for us. Clearly this is retarded, and it seriously hurt my reputation. Neither one alone ever led to me being this stupid, and at the time I truly believed emojicons were a good call. I recognized the risk but justified it as a way of boosting team spirit.

It could have been subconscious rebellion or the fact putting factually relevant jokes on exams always seemed to benefit me, even on the bar but could be wrong. Nof to get all scientific but relaxing is really turning off the volume in your prefrontal cortex, which is the part of your brain that makes you monitor your behavior. The lack of sleep and marijuana each reduce frontal cortex activity so together your judgment may be totally inpaired without you realizing it.

wtf

[Eldon Tyrell]

At least I know I'm not as bad of an associate as these weed heads.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I don't know if others have this reaction but the combination of not getting enough sleep and canabis can seriously impair your judgment even 24 hours later. I once used emojicons as a way of short handing facts against us and facts for us. Clearly this is retarded, and it seriously hurt my reputation. Neither one alone ever led to me being this stupid, and at the time I truly believed emojicons were a good call. I recognized the risk but justified it as a way of boosting team spirit.

It could have been subconscious rebellion or the fact putting factually relevant jokes on exams always seemed to benefit me, even on the bar but could be wrong. Nof to get all scientific but relaxing is really turning off the volume in your prefrontal cortex, which is the part of your brain that makes you monitor your behavior. The lack of sleep and marijuana each reduce frontal cortex activity so together your judgment may be totally inpaired without you realizing it.

wtf

LMAO

"Client admitted to spoofing in text with coworkers "

[Danger Zone]

Uhhh wat

Starting to sound like these commercials

[youtube]Rh8GbPnoqCI[/youtube]

[Anonymous User]

lots and lots of cannabis

I'm this anon. I'm a daily smoker and see no reason to stop right now. Pot definitely has negavtive effects, but the stress relief that I get from it outweighs any minimal gains I would see in my work product (and I'm not really sure it would improve my current work product anyways; all I do is write, and if anything, weed improves my writing by allowing me to think more creatively)