Columbia EIP 2016 Forum

[Anonymous User]

TIA jbagel, MO, and others for your help.

For median students, or just around median, what firms in the V20 are NOT completely out of reach? Looking at the honors report, it seems to be Weil, Debevoise, Sidley, Jones Day and White & Case? Are any of those five too risky for a median student and are there any others that I'm forgetting?

p.s. I know vault isn't that useful I just thought it'd be easier to say v20 for the purpose of this question

I just graduated last month, but I can speak to this.

Debevoise can be more selective grade-wise if it wants to. My year, offers by honors was over 70%. It dropped since. Part of that is them doing pre-EIP interviews. As far as what you could do with dead-on median, Skadden's possible, Kirkland, Weil, Sidley, Jones Day, White & Case. That said, there are a lot of firms that can do work just as great outside that V20 distinction. White & Case isn't the most highly desired firm for most people at Columbia.

If you're not Stone, bidding on firms with more than 70% offers by honors is incredibly risky. If it's above 80%, you're probably not getting it absent some other factor, like bringing in diversity or some great and relevant work experience (maybe). If you're very close to Stone but not quite, you COULD (riskily) bid on some of these firms, and if it doesn't cost you a very high bid then it's not so bad. Whatever you do, though, don't waste your top bids on firms that probably aren't going to happen. If you're median, don't bid Boies at 1. Use that spot on something better. Kirkland or Proskauer or others are a lot more reasonable.

[Tiago Splitter]

if it doesn't cost you a very high bid then it's not so bad. Whatever you do, though, don't waste your top bids on firms that probably aren't going to happen.

This. You're not losing much as a median student by bidding Cravath at 29. But in the first half of your bid list you really need to be focused on landing lots of interviews at firms that present a good chance for an offer. Don't be afraid to eliminate a firm like K&E or Proskauer in order to lock in the rest of the top 10.

[Anonymous User]

Another year, another flavorless OP ripping off my content but with none of the joie de vivre. Alas.

-Ted "Theodore" Logan

[Anonymous User]

How high does my GPA have to be to comfortably bid exclusively norcal? I'm looking at anywhere between a 3.56 and a 3.66 depending on what my last grade looks like.

4 Years of relevant w/e and decent ties. Targeting tax but definitely willing to work in corporate.
CAGunner

that GPA is high enough. Whether you should bid exclusively norcal at all is another question. why not through in some large nyc firms just for safety?

My SO has an irrational (or perfectly rational depending on how you look at it) hate for NYC. Therefore I can't really work in NYC for personal reasons.

Are there any super grade selective firms in SF/SV? I think I've heard MoFo is the only one who has really strict cutoffs for grades?

-CAGunner

I don't think MoFo has *super* hard cutoffs for grades, although sure they are competitive in their home office. If anything, Gibson is maybe stricter. But to be honest, I still think you should include 5-7 new york firms in your bid list. You have 30 bids and to go "all out" SF you really only need ~20 plus mass mail. The honors preferred NY firms don't have very high ffb's so you aren't losing your top spots to them.

This goes out generally to anyone at CLS who is "all in SF" or "all in DC": even if you have honors grades and even if you would NEVER step foot in new york after graduation, include several of the big-class new york firms. Look: when people say SF and DC are tough, that means even with high grades, even with some ties, who knows what could happen, and this is your best shot to get in the room with all the top firms in the country. Don't fuck it up out of some absolutist principle. Having a backup offer in new york isn't just risk averse, its strategic. These firms can also be your backdoor to another market. If you summer at Davis Polk, they'll let you go to Menlo Park for four weeks and most likely accept an offer there for after graduation if you prefer it. If you accept at S&C, they'll let you split with LA and go there after graduation. These scenarios aren't 100% but I've seen them all happen. You'll probably get an SF/SV offer, sure, but there's basically no downside--an hour or so of your life--to including some fancy new york firms, compared to the downside of the alternative.

OF COURSE, if you mass mail a few SF firms in July and get a pre-EIP offer you like, you can always cancel all your new york or non-bay area interviews then. That's totally understandable.

How you explain this to your SO is another matter and I understand that; link to our posts or whatever if you want. but try to explain it

Thanks bagel,

How would this work mechanically for firms with small satellites in SV? For instance, would I bid Davis Polk and then tell them I'm also interested in SV, or would I tell them I'm interested in NYC and then bring up splitting the summer if I get an offer?

CAGunner

[Anonymous User]

Another year, another flavorless OP ripping off my content but with none of the joie de vivre. Alas.

-Ted "Theodore" Logan

You did God's work. That should be its own reward.

CAGunner

[itbdvorm]

FWIW - I am positive that this year, like in years past, we will meet with promising candidates who reach out pre-OCI to discuss potential opportunities. Why not lob in an email to recruiting staffs and note your interest and your hope to meet with them at OCI? If you're in town it's a cab ride to come in.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW - I am positive that this year, like in years past, we will meet with promising candidates who reach out pre-OCI to discuss potential opportunities. Why not lob in an email to recruiting staffs and note your interest and your hope to meet with them at OCI? If you're in town it's a cab ride to come in.

What is the best way to go about doing this? Do you just contact recruiting and say that you are interested in the firm, plan on interviewing with them at OCI, and would like to learn more about them before hand? I feel awkward contacting them without any real purpose other than to express my interest and hope they offer me an early interview.

[Anonymous User]

Duplicate

[Anonymous User]

So I checked, and it looks like we won't hear about LR until after bidding ends. Is that normal? Would getting LR materially affect where we're competitive?

[TheoO]

So I checked, and it looks like we won't hear about LR until after bidding ends. Is that normal? Would getting LR materially affect where we're competitive?

Yes. That said, if you get LR after the lottery, just send firms an email with your updated rsaume and transcript asking for an interview now that you've made LR.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry if this is a dumb question because I really have no idea what qualifies as good grades in the realm of firms

My grades are as follows:

1st Semester: A+, A, A, (HP)

2nd Semester: A-, A-, B+, ?, (HP)

Is the drop from first semester to second semester going to look bad at EIP? And should I consider sending out applications pre-EIP with those grades? After my first semester, I felt like I was in really good shape, so I've kind of been rattled a bit by my second semester grades.

Also can someone confirm to me that if I pull an A- in my last class that I'll get backdoor Kent?

[jbagelboy]

Sorry if this is a dumb question because I really have no idea what qualifies as good grades in the realm of firms

My grades are as follows:

1st Semester: A+, A, A, (HP)

2nd Semester: A-, A-, B+, ?, (HP)

Is the drop from first semester to second semester going to look bad at EIP? And should I consider sending out applications pre-EIP with those grades? After my first semester, I felt like I was in really good shape, so I've kind of been rattled a bit by my second semester grades.

Also can someone confirm to me that if I pull an A- in my last class that I'll get backdoor Kent?

those are excessively good grades. congratulations. you were probably the top, or one of four or five of the top, people in the class after first semester.

yes, you will be backdoor kent with an A- in your last class.

basically every firm is possible for you (maybe unless you get a B or lower in your last class)

[wons]

(E) I have always been really confused as to why the average student seems to get so few of their lottery bids. This is really not a hard process. People who get fewer than 25 of their bids are doing something wrong. The first failed bid stuff is remarkably consistent year-to-year. Look up where Firm X could not be had last year. Move it a few spots above that to account for variability. This is really so easy and yet so many people in the past have messed it up. Do not be like those people.

Oooo... this again. This is bad advice. FFB moves a LOT for some firms for year to year, and last year in particular there were kids who didn't get firms they wanted because they got too cute with FFB. This is not to say that FFB shouldn't inform your bidding - it should - but you need a fairly substantial cushion above last years FFB to guarantee an interview (see last years thread for examples of how big a cushion was necessary - IIRC it was more than 5 for some firms).

FFB disclosure (which is relatively recent: we didn't get that info when I was interviewing) has lead to some interesting distortions in the bidding, especially for firms that everyone interviews at because they will dip below median, but are good enough to be a "safety" for a stone+ student. Don't fall into the trap of trying to maximize interviews at the expense of rationally optimalizing the firms you interview with. Say, for example, you're a 3.6- interested in NY transactional law. You MUST ensure that you interview with all of Cravath/S&C/DPW/CGSH/STB/Skadden. Period. Because your odds of getting zeroed out from that group are very low, and it would be way worse to give up a chance to work at a top transactional practice (of which there are few) in order to preserve your interview spot at, say, Proskauer, which odds are you'll never need.

TL;DR: don't fall into the trap of thinking that there is a competition to maximizing number of interviews. For many candidates there are like 10 key interviews comprising 95% of your OCI expected value. Particularly so if you're a strong student.

[smaug]

Sorry if this is a dumb question because I really have no idea what qualifies as good grades in the realm of firms

My grades are as follows:

1st Semester: A+, A, A, (HP)

2nd Semester: A-, A-, B+, ?, (HP)

Is the drop from first semester to second semester going to look bad at EIP? And should I consider sending out applications pre-EIP with those grades? After my first semester, I felt like I was in really good shape, so I've kind of been rattled a bit by my second semester grades.

Also can someone confirm to me that if I pull an A- in my last class that I'll get backdoor Kent?

those are excessively good grades. congratulations. you were probably the top, or one of four or five of the top, people in the class after first semester.

yes, you will be backdoor kent with an A- in your last class.

basically every firm is possible for you (maybe unless you get a B or lower in your last class)

you should feel free to be aggressive and to push for whatever you want

you could strike out and still get a summer job at a good firm after EIP with those grades.

[smaug]

(E) I have always been really confused as to why the average student seems to get so few of their lottery bids. This is really not a hard process. People who get fewer than 25 of their bids are doing something wrong. The first failed bid stuff is remarkably consistent year-to-year. Look up where Firm X could not be had last year. Move it a few spots above that to account for variability. This is really so easy and yet so many people in the past have messed it up. Do not be like those people.

Oooo... this again. This is bad advice. FFB moves a LOT for some firms for year to year, and last year in particular there were kids who didn't get firms they wanted because they got too cute with FFB. This is not to say that FFB shouldn't inform your bidding - it should - but you need a fairly substantial cushion above last years FFB to guarantee an interview (see last years thread for examples of how big a cushion was necessary - IIRC it was more than 5 for some firms).

FFB disclosure (which is relatively recent: we didn't get that info when I was interviewing) has lead to some interesting distortions in the bidding, especially for firms that everyone interviews at because they will dip below median, but are good enough to be a "safety" for a stone+ student. Don't fall into the trap of trying to maximize interviews at the expense of rationally optimalizing the firms you interview with. Say, for example, you're a 3.6- interested in NY transactional law. You MUST ensure that you interview with all of Cravath/S&C/DPW/CGSH/STB/Skadden. Period. Because your odds of getting zeroed out from that group are very low, and it would be way worse to give up a chance to work at a top transactional practice (of which there are few) in order to preserve your interview spot at, say, Proskauer, which odds are you'll never need.

TL;DR: don't fall into the trap of thinking that there is a competition to maximizing number of interviews. For many candidates there are like 10 key interviews comprising 95% of your OCI expected value. Particularly so if you're a strong student.

listen to this advice. also recognize that you can cast too wide a net and end up fucking up interviews that should be easy for you. i had a really odd slate of callbacks because i filled one day of EIP too full and fucked up pretty much every interview that day.

be conservative, but be conservative within reason.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

(E) I have always been really confused as to why the average student seems to get so few of their lottery bids. This is really not a hard process. People who get fewer than 25 of their bids are doing something wrong. The first failed bid stuff is remarkably consistent year-to-year. Look up where Firm X could not be had last year. Move it a few spots above that to account for variability. This is really so easy and yet so many people in the past have messed it up. Do not be like those people.

Oooo... this again. This is bad advice. FFB moves a LOT for some firms for year to year, and last year in particular there were kids who didn't get firms they wanted because they got too cute with FFB. This is not to say that FFB shouldn't inform your bidding - it should - but you need a fairly substantial cushion above last years FFB to guarantee an interview (see last years thread for examples of how big a cushion was necessary - IIRC it was more than 5 for some firms).

FFB disclosure (which is relatively recent: we didn't get that info when I was interviewing) has lead to some interesting distortions in the bidding, especially for firms that everyone interviews at because they will dip below median, but are good enough to be a "safety" for a stone+ student. Don't fall into the trap of trying to maximize interviews at the expense of rationally optimalizing the firms you interview with. Say, for example, you're a 3.6- interested in NY transactional law. You MUST ensure that you interview with all of Cravath/S&C/DPW/CGSH/STB/Skadden. Period. Because your odds of getting zeroed out from that group are very low, and it would be way worse to give up a chance to work at a top transactional practice (of which there are few) in order to preserve your interview spot at, say, Proskauer, which odds are you'll never need.

TL;DR: don't fall into the trap of thinking that there is a competition to maximizing number of interviews. For many candidates there are like 10 key interviews comprising 95% of your OCI expected value. Particularly so if you're a strong student.

I don't disagree that the appropriate cushion might be more than a few spots, and I don't disagree that you can go a few spots beyond that for your "target" firms. I put some of my highest priority firms something like eight spots ahead of the FFB instead of the four or five I did with everything else, to give me a 99% chance of getting them instead of the ~95% or so chance I had otherwise.

That said, there are still dozens of firms that don't fill their spots every year. Every year people are only getting 18 interviews or whatever and that just demonstrates a fundamental incapability of mastering this very basic process. People really should not be missing more than a handful. If that means you have to let go of the dream of one or two of a dozen very popular firms, so be it. Better safe than sorry.

[itbdvorm]

FWIW - I am positive that this year, like in years past, we will meet with promising candidates who reach out pre-OCI to discuss potential opportunities. Why not lob in an email to recruiting staffs and note your interest and your hope to meet with them at OCI? If you're in town it's a cab ride to come in.

What is the best way to go about doing this? Do you just contact recruiting and say that you are interested in the firm, plan on interviewing with them at OCI, and would like to learn more about them before hand? I feel awkward contacting them without any real purpose other than to express my interest and hope they offer me an early interview.

Sure - do whatever. Just don't be too weird and you'll be fine

[Tiago Splitter]

I'm all about wons' advice and offered it myself last year for the 3.6+ crowd, but let's be clear that it doesn't apply to everyone. Most people in the class need to focus on maximizing interviews.

[Anonymous User]

Anybody know where a 3.6 lands in the class percentile approximately.

Around where should I be thinking if I want NY transactional? Potentially finance oriented.

[wons]

Anybody know where a 3.6 lands in the class percentile approximately.

Around where should I be thinking if I want NY transactional? Potentially finance oriented.

NY transactional is easy - with a 3.6, you interview at Cravath/S&C/DPW/Cleary/STB, and you pick between whichever 2-4 of those give you offers. You might dabble with a callback at Debevoise if you are feeling particularly frisky and are certain you don't want to do M&A.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Anybody know where a 3.6 lands in the class percentile approximately.

Around where should I be thinking if I want NY transactional? Potentially finance oriented.

NY transactional is easy - with a 3.6, you interview at Cravath/S&C/DPW/Cleary/STB, and you pick between whichever 2-4 of those give you offers. You might dabble with a callback at Debevoise if you are feeling particularly frisky and are certain you don't want to do M&A.

Unsubtle Cleary trolling

[Anonymous User]

Is there a forum/discussion for 2L course selection?

[wons]

Anybody know where a 3.6 lands in the class percentile approximately.

Around where should I be thinking if I want NY transactional? Potentially finance oriented.

NY transactional is easy - with a 3.6, you interview at Cravath/S&C/DPW/Cleary/STB, and you pick between whichever 2-4 of those give you offers. You might dabble with a callback at Debevoise if you are feeling particularly frisky and are certain you don't want to do M&A.

Unsubtle Cleary trolling

Do law students no longer think of Cleary as in the NYC transactional elite? If so, they're wrong.

[Anonymous User]

Anybody know where a 3.6 lands in the class percentile approximately.

Around where should I be thinking if I want NY transactional? Potentially finance oriented.

NY transactional is easy - with a 3.6, you interview at Cravath/S&C/DPW/Cleary/STB, and you pick between whichever 2-4 of those give you offers. You might dabble with a callback at Debevoise if you are feeling particularly frisky and are certain you don't want to do M&A.

Does 3.6 really make it likely to get 2-4 offers from those firms?

[jbagelboy]

Anybody know where a 3.6 lands in the class percentile approximately.

Around where should I be thinking if I want NY transactional? Potentially finance oriented.

NY transactional is easy - with a 3.6, you interview at Cravath/S&C/DPW/Cleary/STB, and you pick between whichever 2-4 of those give you offers. You might dabble with a callback at Debevoise if you are feeling particularly frisky and are certain you don't want to do M&A.

Does 3.6 really make it likely to get 2-4 offers from those firms?

Yup. Assuming you aren't actively hostile to transactional practice or free market capitalism and you don't do or say anything catastrophically stupid. Everyone has some bad interviews so you probably won't get ALL of them, but some people do.