HLS EIP 2016 Forum

[TripTrip]

Anyone here have experience doing EIP with really weird grades (1DS/3H/5P/1LP). The "strategic bidding" chart on OCS only talks about H/P grades so I am having a tough time figuring out where I stand. Targeting lit in Chicago if that makes any difference. Thanks for any advice!

That's not that weird. Just assume you're median.

It doesn't really matter in Chicago anyway. You're going to bid on the same firms no matter what.

[leslieknope]

Tag. Also is an NY to 180 filter or checkbox on Dope a thing that is doable, TripTrip?

[TripTrip]

Tag. Also is an NY to 180 filter or checkbox on Dope a thing that is doable, TripTrip?

Yeah. This is part of why I'm shooting for next Monday after the dust settles.

If there ends up being a divide in pay scales, last year's results data will be almost meaningless.

[leslieknope]

Tag. Also is an NY to 180 filter or checkbox on Dope a thing that is doable, TripTrip?

Yeah. This is part of why I'm shooting for next Monday after the dust settles.

If there ends up being a divide in pay scales, last year's results data will be almost meaningless.

You're the best, ty!

In the meantime, ATL doing god's work: http://abovethelaw.com/2016/06/salary-w ... ed-raises/

[wwwcol]

Tag. Also is an NY to 180 filter or checkbox on Dope a thing that is doable, TripTrip?

Probably not worth bothering to adjust your bid list for NY TO 180!, since all the firms (at least all the ones that HLS people go to) will be at 180 by the time you summer there (honestly most of them will probably match in the next month or two).

[jbagelboy]

Tag. Also is an NY to 180 filter or checkbox on Dope a thing that is doable, TripTrip?

Yeah. This is part of why I'm shooting for next Monday after the dust settles.

If there ends up being a divide in pay scales, last year's results data will be almost meaningless.

You're the best, ty!

In the meantime, ATL doing god's work: http://abovethelaw.com/2016/06/salary-w ... ed-raises/

(of course, stolen from TLS...we've had our list for a week.)

[nothingtosee]

If I were making a bidlist, I would absolutely preference firms that have already matched 180k.

[wwwcol]

If I were making a bidlist, I would absolutely preference firms that have already matched 180k.

Just so nobody actually takes the above comment seriously: That would be a very dumb factor on which to base your decision, because speed in matching a salary raise is a laughably bad proxy for financial health or associate treatment/ working conditions.

[TripTrip]

If I were making a bidlist, I would absolutely preference firms that have already matched 180k.

Just so nobody actually takes the above comment seriously: That would be a very dumb factor on which to base your decision, because speed in matching a salary raise is a laughably bad proxy for financial health or associate treatment/ working conditions.

I mean, it's better than what I've heard some people base their decisions on.

If you have callbacks with two firms and one is paying $20k more than the other, it's sensical to take that offer. Late August should be more than enough time to match. But I agree that bidlists today probably shouldn't reflect salaries. If anything, the firms that haven't matched yet will just be that much easier to get for those who do bid on them.

[Anonymous User]

With 1H/9P, except Wachtell, W & C, Bois, Sullivan, Munger, Cravath, Gibson Dunn, and Covington, which other firms are also out of question for me? Try to add some reachs to my list but don't want to waste any bid. I will talk to OCS soon but want to gather some peer wisdom first.
KJD with mediocre interview skills.

[Anonymous User]

With 1H/9P, except Wachtell, W & C, Bois, Sullivan, Munger, Cravath, Gibson Dunn, and Covington, which other firms are also out of question for me? Try to add some reachs to my list but don't want to waste any bid. I will talk to OCS soon but want to gather some peer wisdom first.
KJD with mediocre interview skills.

I wouldn't say GDC NY or Covington NY are out of reach. They are less grade sensitive than Cravath/Davis Polk, which are both a little less sensitive than S&C, although 1H is still lower than the average offeree at any of those three. To the extent you're talking about DC, there are probably a bunch of offices that are reaches from 1H, not just GDC/Cov: Kirkland, Wilmer, A&P, ect. Be careful with DC in your position. And of course Irell and other smaller litigation firms will be too competitive.

[Anonymous User]

With 1H/9P, except Wachtell, W & C, Bois, Sullivan, Munger, Cravath, Gibson Dunn, and Covington, which other firms are also out of question for me? Try to add some reachs to my list but don't want to waste any bid. I will talk to OCS soon but want to gather some peer wisdom first.
KJD with mediocre interview skills.

I wouldn't say GDC NY or Covington NY are out of reach. They are less grade sensitive than Cravath/Davis Polk, which are both a little less sensitive than S&C, although 1H is still lower than the average offeree at any of those three. To the extent you're talking about DC, there are probably a bunch of offices that are reaches from 1H, not just GDC/Cov: Kirkland, Wilmer, A&P, ect. Be careful with DC in your position. And of course Irell and other smaller litigation firms will be too competitive.

Thanks for the response! I'm considering NY Corporate only. So to swap GDC and Covington for Davis Polk in the list? OCS's website suggests 5 reaches for people with my grades. Any suggestion on which v20 firms to pick?

[Anonymous User]

With 1H/9P, except Wachtell, W & C, Bois, Sullivan, Munger, Cravath, Gibson Dunn, and Covington, which other firms are also out of question for me? Try to add some reachs to my list but don't want to waste any bid. I will talk to OCS soon but want to gather some peer wisdom first.
KJD with mediocre interview skills.

I wouldn't say GDC NY or Covington NY are out of reach. They are less grade sensitive than Cravath/Davis Polk, which are both a little less sensitive than S&C, although 1H is still lower than the average offeree at any of those three. To the extent you're talking about DC, there are probably a bunch of offices that are reaches from 1H, not just GDC/Cov: Kirkland, Wilmer, A&P, ect. Be careful with DC in your position. And of course Irell and other smaller litigation firms will be too competitive.

Thanks for the response! I'm considering NY Corporate only. So to swap GDC and Covington for Davis Polk in the list? OCS's website suggests 5 reaches for people with my grades. Any suggestion on which v20 firms to pick?

Well, no. For NY corporate, I would definitely bid Davis Polk, Cravath, Skadden, Simpson Thacher, and Cleary. Those are your bread and butter: if you're going to have reach firms, let those be it. You won't get all of them, but even if you get one or two, it will probably be your best option for your stated preferences. You'll get in the room with plenty of non-selective firms, but you should maximize your chances at landing at least one offer in the top firms as well. Gibson and Covington do not have as strong of corporate groups as those five firms, period.

ETA: for other less selective firms that have great corporate groups and that you'll definitely have strong shots at, consider Kirkland, Weil, Milbank, Debevoise, Willkie, White & Case, Shearman, Latham, Sidley.

[Anonymous User]

With 1H/9P, except Wachtell, W & C, Bois, Sullivan, Munger, Cravath, Gibson Dunn, and Covington, which other firms are also out of question for me? Try to add some reachs to my list but don't want to waste any bid. I will talk to OCS soon but want to gather some peer wisdom first.
KJD with mediocre interview skills.

I wouldn't say GDC NY or Covington NY are out of reach. They are less grade sensitive than Cravath/Davis Polk, which are both a little less sensitive than S&C, although 1H is still lower than the average offeree at any of those three. To the extent you're talking about DC, there are probably a bunch of offices that are reaches from 1H, not just GDC/Cov: Kirkland, Wilmer, A&P, ect. Be careful with DC in your position. And of course Irell and other smaller litigation firms will be too competitive.

Thanks for the response! I'm considering NY Corporate only. So to swap GDC and Covington for Davis Polk in the list? OCS's website suggests 5 reaches for people with my grades. Any suggestion on which v20 firms to pick?

Well, no. For NY corporate, I would definitely bid Davis Polk, Cravath, Skadden, Simpson Thacher, and Cleary. Those are your bread and butter: if you're going to have reach firms, let those be it. You won't get all of them, but even if you get one or two, it will probably be your best option for your stated preferences. You'll get in the room with plenty of non-selective firms, but you should maximize your chances at landing at least one offer in the top firms as well. Gibson and Covington do not have as strong of corporate groups as those five firms, period.

ETA: for other less selective firms that have great corporate groups and that you'll definitely have strong shots at, consider Kirkland, Weil, Milbank, Debevoise, Willkie, White & Case, Shearman, Latham, Sidley.

Very much appreciated! These words make me feel like I’m in a much better situation than I have expected

[Anonymous User]

URM with 6H, 1 DS, and 3P

Wondering two things. Is it worth throwing bids at ridiculously selective firms like Wachtell? I know I don't have to bid that conservatively, but if the chances are still slim to none I might just opt not to waste my time.

Also, I'm interested in California, probably southern Cali though I'm not opposed to going more north. Which firms would be considered reaches in that region?

Thanks for the help.

[cjw564]

URM with 6H, 1 DS, and 3P

Wondering two things. Is it worth throwing bids at ridiculously selective firms like Wachtell? I know I don't have to bid that conservatively, but if the chances are still slim to none I might just opt not to waste my time.

Also, I'm interested in California, probably southern Cali though I'm not opposed to going more north. Which firms would be considered reaches in that region?

Thanks for the help.

Wachtell's cut off is 7 H. They are known to treat ds much more favorably than h. Given your urm status, you would be a good contender for them. For the ultra prestigious lit firms (mto, kvn, etc), if you have an h or better ds in lrw, you would be a strong applicant as well. I don't think you have a reach firm given those grades and urm. Although MTO and KVN would be the most competitive in California.

[Anonymous User]

3H

Other than W&C and Cov which are not happening, what is realistic in DC?

Also, how difficult are the native SV startup transactional firms (Cooley, Fenwick, WSGR, Gunderson) without ties with my grades?

Thanks

[MyNameIsFlynn!]

3H

Other than W&C and Cov which are not happening, what is realistic in DC?

Also, how difficult are the native SV startup transactional firms (Cooley, Fenwick, WSGR, Gunderson) without ties with my grades?

Thanks

3H in DC will be an uphill battle. A&P, WH, and GDC are probably not worth bidding on either. Honestly you'll want to focus on "lesser" names in DC (which is not to say bad firms, but just not in the same league as the ones already mentioned) like Hogan, Sidley, Steptoe, etc. But you should definitely have a realistic backup plan because focusing on DC with your grades is prime strike-out territory.

[Anonymous User]

Any recommendations for someone chasing SF/SV corporate with no ties (other than specific practice group interest) and 5 Hs? Any firms seem farfetched or should be put towards the top of my list?

[Anonymous User]

3H/7P - Fully aware that I'm right around median. FWIW, all 3 H's were in Spring. 1L summer at smaller firm. I've been told I'm a decent interviewer.

Is there a Vault cutoff I should keep in mind when drafting a bid list? Hoping to go to the West Coast (LA/Seattle) and have ties there, but would like to bid NYC firms that do work I'm interested in (Proskauer, Covington).

Also, for employers that aren't attending EIP (i.e. regional firms), should I apply asap or wait until around the same time (early Aug.)?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Edit: Leaning corporate, not lit

[Anonymous User]

URM with 6H, 1 DS, and 3P

Wondering two things. Is it worth throwing bids at ridiculously selective firms like Wachtell? I know I don't have to bid that conservatively, but if the chances are still slim to none I might just opt not to waste my time.

Also, I'm interested in California, probably southern Cali though I'm not opposed to going more north. Which firms would be considered reaches in that region?

Thanks for the help.

I have the exact same grades but am not a URM. Also targeting CA (both LA and SF, with ties to southern CA) and DC. Not K-JD but close to it, and my pre-LS resume is very PI focused. Any firms out of reach?

[nothingtosee]

URM with 6H, 1 DS, and 3P

Wondering two things. Is it worth throwing bids at ridiculously selective firms like Wachtell? I know I don't have to bid that conservatively, but if the chances are still slim to none I might just opt not to waste my time.

Also, I'm interested in California, probably southern Cali though I'm not opposed to going more north. Which firms would be considered reaches in that region?

Thanks for the help.

I have the exact same grades but am not a URM. Also targeting CA (both LA and SF, with ties to southern CA) and DC. Not K-JD but close to it, and my pre-LS resume is very PI focused. Any firms out of reach?

Nah

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone have any insight into whether we should be reaching out to firms Pre-EIP? I know OCS is not a fan but I've been hearing a lot about it lately and I didn't even know that it was a common thing that happened.

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

Hey guys. The best advice I can give all of you is not to panic. Panic is gonna make things worse. You want to be confident but not arrogant. That includes your bid list. Don't target SF or DC exclusively with below median grades. Look at the OCS information when ordering your bid lists. If you don't get a firm you wanted, shoot an email to the recruiter ASAP and then follow up the week of EIP by visiting the suite.

As you approach your work the rest of this summer, actively think about things that you can talk about in your interview. Things you drafted, read, participated on, even things that you want to know more about (firms like when you're curious). Have an answer for what you liked about 1L/HLS that you can deliver with a straight face. Your grades are in the books, even if you straight P'd you can still play that hand into a job you enjoy tolerate. Also, be able to talk about the interest section in your resume (I was surprised by how often that came up, one interviewer even led with it.)

I had one H (in my freaking elective) and landed multple V10 offers in part because I was able to have a non-awkward conversation for 30 minutes. I know a lot of you and there's very few people at HLS who can't have an interesting conversation for 30 minutes. I sincerely believe that and it's backed up by my interactions with you all. I say this not as a humblebrag but to set up this quote I got that came from a screener when I was trying to explain my academic performance.

I'll stop you right there, when we go to some other schools, yeah, we're checking to see if the students have the firepower to do the work. Here, we dont really worry about that, we know you're qualified, we're checking to see if you have the drive.

Fair or not, that's what being here gets you in most of the firms' eyes. Don't get dragged down by self doubt. Don't say you have the drive, show them by talking about the things you've done and the things that interested you.

I leave you with this:
https://youtu.be/Q4PE2hSqVnk?t=7m22s

A recruiter doesn't walk on the lot unless their willing to buy!

[TripTrip]

Does anyone have any insight into whether we should be reaching out to firms Pre-EIP? I know OCS is not a fan but I've been hearing a lot about it lately and I didn't even know that it was a common thing that happened.

It's not a common thing. Quinn tried it two years ago then stopped when they pulled back their summer program.

In terms of time you would spend on it compared to the possible reward, it doesn't seem like it would be worth your time. Most reputable firms will hire almost exclusively from EIP. If you did start trying to reach out, that's the push-back you would receive from most AR departments. It's fine to attend recruiting events, but having firms move to give you job offers before EIP isn't great.

Now, full disclosure, a big part of the reason I don't like the idea of earlier recruiting is that it is bad for students on net, not because it's bad for any individual student. The most compelling reason to oppose it is to avoid the tragedy of the commons. Having one week where recruiters come to you and all give you offers and options at the same time is freaking awesome compared to how the job search works pretty much anywhere else. It's not perfect, and the timing is probably way to early, and it happens too fast. But it definitely would not be better for students if it started even earlier, required students to travel more, and gave students fewer overlapping options so you had to decide on firm A before you even had a chance to interview with firm B.

So here's the conundrum: it's kind of a wash for you to pursue firms early. You don't really gain much from it, but you don't stand to lose much either (unless you annoy the hiring partner with gunner-ish antics). However, any progress firms make in making it more acceptable to recruit earlier and outside of the EIP process will definitely make this process harder and more stressful for future students.

At the end of the day, I think it would be a far better use of your time to learn about the firms you will be interviewing with at EIP, meet their associates at events, etc. instead of trying to interview for them earlier. But that's based on my perceptions, no hard data, and my perceptions might be clouded by my fear of how horrible this process could be if it were eroded too much in that direction.