Northwestern OCI 2016 Forum

[feralinfant]

Rising 2L here with no clue what to do OCI-wise.

I've got a 3.69 (can I just say 3.7?) GPA and would like to stay in Chicago, but the upper midwest in general would be something I could live with (Minneapolis or Milwaukee for example). I've also been considering DC as a second market (I worked on the Hill one summer before law school. Does that count as a good enough tie?) but idk if that's possible with my GPA. I just have pretty much zero desire to live in New York and my S.O. doesn't either.

I honestly have no idea what kind of law I want to practice. Like literally zero clue. Can't even decide between transactional or litigation. I don't want to sound uninformed or pathetic in interviews, but seriously I don't care as long as they pay me and it's not a miserable place to work. I just want to spend my 2L summer learning lots of different things. I think most practice areas could end up being interesting.

Halp.

These are the OCI results of one student targeting lit with a 3.69 with LR from two years ago. http://imgur.com/aRQaN7a

DC is not really a safe secondary market, though you can get those firms low in a bid list so by all means interview with them. Chicago and NY are both doable, but Chicago is just a lot harder than NY. It sucks but so it goes. If you just cant stand the idea of new york, then go hard at Chicago, mass mail Minneapolis and Milwaukee early and broadly and roll the dice on DC. But DC is very snobbby, and a 3.7 is not going to turn heads at most of those firms.

And if you don't care, say transactional. You will have an easier time. Theres lot of advice in these threads had to express openness to transactional work (they dont really cover it in LS etc). Definitely read those.

[ghostoftraynor]

Random unsolicited advice:

Try to talk to someone from every firm you are considering. It's not necessarily about saying "omg I talked to x," but about learning 1) what practice areas firms specialize in, 2) what practice areas in firms are currently swamped and likely looking to hire, and 3) firm buzz words. It may seem to you right now like every firm is the same, but they really aren't. Be prepared to talk about details. If a firm does a lot of m&a, you should know if its primarily public or private. If a firm does lit, you should know if its really just general or they have key specialities like IP. If they do bankruptcy, make sure to know if its a debtor or creditor shop, etc. These are things that you may be able to figure out online, but really someone who has actually been there is probably your best source. Likely ANY Northwestern grad/student who isn't a partner would be very willing to talk to you, but certainly any rising 3L or 4L who isn't a total asshat. Do not be afraid to ask and do not be afraid to ask right now.

As for making your bidlist, don't bid all chicago if you have no ties. It might work, but its really dangerous. Generally, NY firms that have gone to 180 are your best bet.

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

Random unsolicited advice:

Try to talk to someone from every firm you are considering. It's not necessarily about saying "omg I talked to x," but about learning 1) what practice areas firms specialize in, 2) what practice areas in firms are currently swamped and likely looking to hire, and 3) firm buzz words. It may seem to you right now like every firm is the same, but they really aren't. Be prepared to talk about details. If a firm does a lot of m&a, you should know if its primarily public or private. If a firm does lit, you should know if its really just general or they have key specialities like IP. If they do bankruptcy, make sure to know if its a debtor or creditor shop, etc. These are things that you may be able to figure out online, but really someone who has actually been there is probably your best source. Likely ANY Northwestern grad/student who isn't a partner would be very willing to talk to you, but certainly any rising 3L or 4L who isn't a total asshat. Do not be afraid to ask and do not be afraid to ask right now.

As for making your bidlist, don't bid all chicago if you have no ties. It might work, but its really dangerous. Generally, NY firms that have gone to 180 are your best bet.

Awesome. Thanks

[OCWhy]

Random unsolicited advice:

Try to talk to someone from every firm you are considering. It's not necessarily about saying "omg I talked to x," but about learning 1) what practice areas firms specialize in, 2) what practice areas in firms are currently swamped and likely looking to hire, and 3) firm buzz words. It may seem to you right now like every firm is the same, but they really aren't. Be prepared to talk about details. If a firm does a lot of m&a, you should know if its primarily public or private. If a firm does lit, you should know if its really just general or they have key specialities like IP. If they do bankruptcy, make sure to know if its a debtor or creditor shop, etc. These are things that you may be able to figure out online, but really someone who has actually been there is probably your best source. Likely ANY Northwestern grad/student who isn't a partner would be very willing to talk to you, but certainly any rising 3L or 4L who isn't a total asshat. Do not be afraid to ask and do not be afraid to ask right now.

As for making your bidlist, don't bid all chicago if you have no ties. It might work, but its really dangerous. Generally, NY firms that have gone to 180 are your best bet.

So what exactly counts as "ties"? I go to school in Chicago obviously... That's not good enough? But I'm also from Illinois, went to undergrad in Wisconsin and have basically lived in the Midwest my entire life. But I will definitely reach out to people to get info, thanks!

[cookiejar1]

Firms want to know why they should invest in you—will you accept an offer if they extend one to you, will you come back to the firm after your SA, are you a flight risk after you start? Most importantly they're gauging to see whether you have your heart set on another place . . . nobody wants to get excited about a candidate only to find out later that he/she was never really into them in the first place. Ties help demonstrate that you're not all making it up.

But nobody is stoping you from making it all up.

[OCWhy]

One more question regarding emailing alums:

So standard "Hey I saw you're an alum and was wondering if you'd like to meet up/talk on the phone (even though I hate phone calls and am really incapable of being interesting/charming over the phone so hopefully avoid please) sometime so I could learn more about your practice/the firm/your experience/etc. blah blah blah." Also what should the subject line be? Weirdly I find that dilemma stressful.

Also, should I stick to associates or try partners?

Also also, I met with a partner at a firm I like and she was awesome, but this was at the end of last semester and my first semester grades were weak so I threw myself into boosting them and basically I haven't talked to her since then because I only recently became a functioning human again. Would it be kosher to reach out to her again? I'm 100% bidding on that firm and am SUPER interested but I'm terrible at networking (obviously) and have not talked to her because I don't know how to person (but am working on that for OCI purposes). But hey I did boost my GPA significantly so OCI is at least possible for me now. I could also just reach out to someone else at that firm. Idk though. Thoughts?

Thanks friends.

[cookiejar1]

I'm sure someone else will have a stronger opinion about "who" to e-mail. For what it's worth this is what I did. In Chicago, I stuck with young associates I met at networking events and the 3Ls/4Ls that I knew. When I had no real "in" at a firm, I generally cold-emailed someone on the OCI Contact List to get his/her thoughts on the firm and then maybe cold-emailed an associate with more in-depth questions.

I did reach out to some partners at firms outside of the Chicago market (where, for example, they only had less than <10 NU grads) and they seemed pretty responsive.

The point of networking at this point is to get information about the firms that you will be interviewing with. You want to use this information to be better prepared for your 20 minute screener than your peers. It's very easy to read about a firm online. That's what most of your classmates will be doing. You can supplement this by talking to people who actually work there. You'd be surprised at how this will help you position yourself during the interview and ask good questions after.

[Anonymous User]

Random unsolicited advice:

Try to talk to someone from every firm you are considering. It's not necessarily about saying "omg I talked to x," but about learning 1) what practice areas firms specialize in, 2) what practice areas in firms are currently swamped and likely looking to hire, and 3) firm buzz words. It may seem to you right now like every firm is the same, but they really aren't. Be prepared to talk about details. If a firm does a lot of m&a, you should know if its primarily public or private. If a firm does lit, you should know if its really just general or they have key specialities like IP. If they do bankruptcy, make sure to know if its a debtor or creditor shop, etc. These are things that you may be able to figure out online, but really someone who has actually been there is probably your best source. Likely ANY Northwestern grad/student who isn't a partner would be very willing to talk to you, but certainly any rising 3L or 4L who isn't a total asshat. Do not be afraid to ask and do not be afraid to ask right now.

As for making your bidlist, don't bid all chicago if you have no ties. It might work, but its really dangerous. Generally, NY firms that have gone to 180 are your best bet.

So what exactly counts as "ties"? I go to school in Chicago obviously... That's not good enough? But I'm also from Illinois, went to undergrad in Wisconsin and have basically lived in the Midwest my entire life. But I will definitely reach out to people to get info, thanks!

Going to school in Chicago means very little in terms of ties. They know we went to the best school/ where we got the most money. So saying omg I went to Northwestern means omg I didn't get into a top ten school. I know that isn't everyone's situation, it wasn't mine, but if I heard it, I may assume you were too dumb to get into a good school. Being from Illinois, going to undergrad in Wisconsin, are real ties. This doesn't apply to you, but if you don't have these things, make up a girlfriend who did. They aren't looking for honesty. They are looking for a reason to ding you.

[Man from Nantucket]

Random unsolicited advice:

Try to talk to someone from every firm you are considering. It's not necessarily about saying "omg I talked to x," but about learning 1) what practice areas firms specialize in, 2) what practice areas in firms are currently swamped and likely looking to hire, and 3) firm buzz words. It may seem to you right now like every firm is the same, but they really aren't. Be prepared to talk about details. If a firm does a lot of m&a, you should know if its primarily public or private. If a firm does lit, you should know if its really just general or they have key specialities like IP. If they do bankruptcy, make sure to know if its a debtor or creditor shop, etc. These are things that you may be able to figure out online, but really someone who has actually been there is probably your best source. Likely ANY Northwestern grad/student who isn't a partner would be very willing to talk to you, but certainly any rising 3L or 4L who isn't a total asshat. Do not be afraid to ask and do not be afraid to ask right now.

As for making your bidlist, don't bid all chicago if you have no ties. It might work, but its really dangerous. Generally, NY firms that have gone to 180 are your best bet.

So what exactly counts as "ties"? I go to school in Chicago obviously... That's not good enough? But I'm also from Illinois, went to undergrad in Wisconsin and have basically lived in the Midwest my entire life. But I will definitely reach out to people to get info, thanks!

Going to school in Chicago means very little in terms of ties. They know we went to the best school/ where we got the most money. So saying omg I went to Northwestern means omg I didn't get into a top ten school. I know that isn't everyone's situation, it wasn't mine, but if I heard it, I may assume you were too dumb to get into a good school. Being from Illinois, going to undergrad in Wisconsin, are real ties. This doesn't apply to you, but if you don't have these things, make up a girlfriend who did. They aren't looking for honesty. They are looking for a reason to ding you.

Ahh the old girlfriend from Wisconsin trick.

[OCWhy]

Me again, sorry guys but y'all are really helpful.

So mass mailing is a thing I will definitely do (seems way too early to start now though, so maybe I will in early/mid July), but assuming I get lucky and actually land a screener, how does that work? Do they screen you via phone interview and then fingers crossed for a call back? Because lol at the idea of me being able to afford to fly out to various parts of the country for an interview when I assume screeners are not reimbursed. If you can get those costs reimbursed, then I can do it. Is it kosher to request a phone interview instead of flying out? What's the protocol for requesting reimbursement? Because I can only front the money for so many costs before descending into ramen noodles and poverty.

[dstars823]

Me again, sorry guys but y'all are really helpful.

So mass mailing is a thing I will definitely do (seems way too early to start now though, so maybe I will in early/mid July), but assuming I get lucky and actually land a screener, how does that work? Do they screen you via phone interview and then fingers crossed for a call back? Because lol at the idea of me being able to afford to fly out to various parts of the country for an interview when I assume screeners are not reimbursed. If you can get those costs reimbursed, then I can do it. Is it kosher to request a phone interview instead of flying out? What's the protocol for requesting reimbursement? Because I can only front the money for so many costs before descending into ramen noodles and poverty.

A mass mail is usually direct to callback. All firms will book the flight through their travel agency and get you a hotel (unless you fly to and from NY in the same day). Generally you will get a reimbursement form from them during/after your callback for general things like meals/cabs stuff like that as long as its reasonable. You really shouldnt have to front that much money for stuff on callbacks.

[cookiejar1]

Yeah, the only thing you need to worry about is having the money to spend on cabs form the airport to the hotel (~$100 both ways depending on your city) and food (~$30 to $50 for dinner depending on the market). Firms will reimburse you eventually but you'll have to float those costs for until they send you the reimbursement.

Getting your dinner comped is a pretty sweet perk so use it wisely (and often!).

[Mullens]

Yeah, the only thing you need to worry about is having the money to spend on cabs form the airport to the hotel (~$100 both ways depending on your city) and food (~$30 to $50 for dinner depending on the market). Firms will reimburse you eventually but you'll have to float those costs for until they send you the reimbursement.

Getting your dinner comped is a pretty sweet perk so use it wisely (and often!).

To add a semi-tangential point to this, OCI and CB season are a great time to get a new credit card and take advantage of any offers that give you miles of you spend $X in Y months because some of that money will be reimbursed to you and you will have a decent amount of one-time expenses if you buy new interview clothes.

[dstars823]

Yeah, the only thing you need to worry about is having the money to spend on cabs form the airport to the hotel (~$100 both ways depending on your city) and food (~$30 to $50 for dinner depending on the market). Firms will reimburse you eventually but you'll have to float those costs for until they send you the reimbursement.

Getting your dinner comped is a pretty sweet perk so use it wisely (and often!).

To add a semi-tangential point to this, OCI and CB season are a great time to get a new credit card and take advantage of any offers that give you miles of you spend $X in Y months because some of that money will be reimbursed to you and you will have a decent amount of one-time expenses if you buy new interview clothes.

This is solid advice, when youre on the flights theyll tell you that if you spent $1000 in 3 months theyll give you 50000 miles (thats how it is with american) i would pick up the card since youre probably going to spend that over OCI season overall and most of it will be reimbursed if not all and you have 2 free round trip flights anywhere in the continental US with that many miles.

[Anonymous User]

So it seems like NY is the only real "safe" major market to bid on without ties? For example, if I'm aiming for Chicago but am trying to fill up my bid list with safer options in case Chi doesn't work out, I shouldn't really be bidding on SF/ Valley firms? The only real connection I could say I had to SF is that I "travelled there a lot for work." Like other posters, I really don't want to end up in NYC, but even more so I don't want to end up unemployed so just trying to be smart.

[star fox]

So it seems like NY is the only real "safe" major market to bid on without ties? For example, if I'm aiming for Chicago but am trying to fill up my bid list with safer options in case Chi doesn't work out, I shouldn't really be bidding on SF/ Valley firms? The only real connection I could say I had to SF is that I "travelled there a lot for work." Like other posters, I really don't want to end up in NYC, but even more so I don't want to end up unemployed so just trying to be smart.

NY makes the most sense to bid on. You can cop some interviews from smaller Midwest cities bidding them late.

[cookiejar1]

NYC is popular for two reasons: (1) they care less about ties and, more importantly, (2) they have the largest summer class sizes in the country. They simply will hire more people in NYC than any other major market. For perspective, a good handful of NYC firms will hire at least 80+ summers. The two largest summer classes in SF are, what, MoFo and WSGR at around 30 a piece?

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

What are the best resources to identify which lit firms are the best, what type of work they do, what their "culture" is like, etc., outside of vault, chambers, etc.? I've spent a lot of time more or less googling, and it's terribly inefficient. I have my top 10 firms heading into OCI but am having trouble finding legit info to distinguish them from each other.

[Mullens]

What are the best resources to identify which lit firms are the best, what type of work they do, what their "culture" is like, etc., outside of vault, chambers, etc.? I've spent a lot of time more or less googling, and it's terribly inefficient. I have my top 10 firms heading into OCI but am having trouble finding legit info to distinguish them from each other.

This is why networking and informational interviews are important. You can't find out all of that information on the internet and talking to people who work at those firms is invaluable to fill the gaps. As other people have mentioned, doing these kinds of informational interviews will give you a leg up at OCI and will help your own personal decision-making. Law360 can be a decent resource too

[cookiejar1]

I agree with the poster above. Also, no need to get too stressed out! You only need to be able to competently speak about the firm you're interviewing with in a 20 minute screener interview. Your screener interviewer will give you a lot of information about the firm after you ask good questions (which you can use during your CB) and you can also do more research after you schedule your callback.

Before OCI started I compiled all my notes about firms (from Vault, Chambers, American Lawyer + Law 360 + TLS + ATL, etc.) into a single bullet-pointed page (organized much in the same way Chambers Associate organizes their break down of law firms). Then I just read over this before every interview and wrote down 3-4 good questions to ask.

It's actually not to bad (although you will end up with 16-20 pages of notes). I originally did this b/c I wanted a job first and foremost and I felt it would be silly to treat OCI less seriously than I treated Constitutional Law or w/e but then I kept doing it b/c I became genuinely interested in what I ultimately wanted in a firm and which firms gave me that.

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

I agree with the poster above. Also, no need to get too stressed out! You only need to be able to competently speak about the firm you're interviewing with in a 20 minute screener interview. Your screener interviewer will give you a lot of information about the firm after you ask good questions (which you can use during your CB) and you can also do more research after you schedule your callback.

Before OCI started I compiled all my notes about firms (from Vault, Chambers, American Lawyer + Law 360 + TLS + ATL, etc.) into a single bullet-pointed page (organized much in the same way Chambers Associate organizes their break down of law firms). Then I just read over this before every interview and wrote down 3-4 good questions to ask.

It's actually not to bad (although you will end up with 16-20 pages of notes). I originally did this b/c I wanted a job first and foremost and I felt it would be silly to treat OCI less seriously than I treated Constitutional Law or w/e but then I kept doing it b/c I became genuinely interested in what I ultimately wanted in a firm and which firms gave me that.

Thanks for the helpful advice!

[personofinterest]

it would be silly to treat OCI less seriously than I treated Constitutional Law

So true. One point I want to make is that you should take grabbing coffee with a lawyer seriously. If that firm does not come to OCI, grabbing coffee IS your screener interview. I screwed up a couple of these by not knowing much about the firm going in. When I did prepare a little more, I had a lot of success. Good luck everyone!

[OCWhy]

Some of you guys mentioned getting a credit card with good miles rewards, but if the firm sets the flights/hotels up, how would we get the miles? I only have experience with my parents' card and the miles go to the card used to pay for the flight...so? Or does the firm just give a voucher/reimburse, making the miles ours to get? Or am I just misunderstanding? If so, suggestions on the best card to get?

Also, what's up with the OCI list of firms frequently saying "no multiple interviews," and yet some of those firms have separate interview spots (one for NY, one for Chicago, etc.) Do we have to pick one then? I figured this was the case, but I'd really like to express interest in multiple office locations for some of these firms. Can we mass-mail the office locations we didn't bid on?

[cookiejar1]

You have two options: (1) You can set up travel and accommodations through the Firm's travel agency which will bill all expenses directly to the firm or (2) You can personally pay for travel and accommodations and the firm will reimburse that (see http://www.nalp.org/uploads/2015Printab ... seForm.pdf). You'll be filling out the Travel Expense Form either way so that you can expense transportation and food.

Some firms (e.g., Jones Day) will not allow you to interview with multiple offices. So if you're interested in Jones Day Chicago and Jones Day DC you are not allowed to schedule interviews for both offices. This is really just up to the discretion of the firm's hiring committee and practices . . . there is no NALP rule on this. It's really hard to say how strict firms are with their internal policies. Rule of thumb is to just follow them for OCI (i.e., don't bid on two offices of the same firm if they expressly tell you not to). After that . . . well it's up to you. I had a screener interview with Latham SV and never heard back from them and so I scheduled a Latham LA interview and got an offer from that office. I never mentioned that I also interviewed with their Latham SV office. Maybe they knew, maybe they didn't. Again, it's so firm specific.

[Lexaholik]

I originally did this b/c I wanted a job first and foremost and I felt it would be silly to treat OCI less seriously than I treated Constitutional Law or w/e but then I kept doing it b/c I became genuinely interested in what I ultimately wanted in a firm and which firms gave me that.

So true. I did OCI many years ago at NU and was surprised that 1. almost nobody seriously prepared for OCI and 2. how everyone seemed to believe it was only about grades. Maybe things have changed and law students are wiser now. But I did all the things in this thread (e-mailing associates, talking to random recruiting ppl from all firms) and got lucky. Ended up landing a job at a V5 despite being under their minimum GPA cutoff (although I was on LR) because my resume made its way to the top of the pile in part because an associate I talked to in one of the hospitality lounges thought I was a nice guy. It can happen to you too.