Lateraling As a First Year Forum

[Anonymous User]

Can you rotate groups in the firm

This is a good idea but might not solve the problem because whoever runs Group B is overwhelmingly likely to call whoever runs Group A and ask what this guy is like

Totally agree and OP will probably lateral eventually but if at all possible better to learn a new practice group here, get away from the people bringing him down, and have the skills to move to a new firm in the desired group.

IME firms are actually remarkably willing to let associates move even if they didn't build a stellar rep in the first group.

I don't think anyone is trying to bring me down. The person from that story left. It's probably just that for the first few months, my work was that and something involving another office, which didn't help me build a reputation here. Given how much of a joke junior associate work is, you really just want somebody who is reliable so having that reputation made me look unreliable. Short of lateraling/changing practice groups, I need to create opportunities for myself to succeed and wasn't trying to build relationships to get work like I should have been. At this point, I'm not sure how to do that without looking desperate. Through trial and error I've gotten a lot more efficient and mistake free, but was overstaffed out of the gate so likely seem much less competent than I actually am. Each week I'm not given an opportunity to prove myself is another week the bad reputation becomes more solidified, which is why I'm looking to act and act relatively soon. If I don't bill minimum 600 hours these next 3 months, I'm toast. Nobody said this directly, but it was subtly hinted at and I'm 100% sure this is the case. Truthfully, I probably need about 800 to be safe.

[DELG]

there's not really anything you can do to rehab your reputation here so it's time to either leave this group or firm.

[Anonymous User]

there's not really anything you can do to rehab your reputation here so it's time to either leave this group or firm.

Why are you sure that's the case?

[DELG]

The content of this thread paired with my experience watching associates with mud reputations.

[Anonymous User]

The content of this thread paired with my experience watching associates with mud reputations.

Hmm, that's not good. So even if I got staffed on a bunch of stuff, you'd still try to move? Is there any correlation between hours and switching groups (i.e. more bargaining power, likelihood they'll say yes)?

[DELG]

Whether you can rotate easily is firm-specific. IME people can't recover bad reputations, whether or not they get more work.

[Anonymous User]

Whether you can rotate easily is firm-specific. IME people can't recover bad reputations, whether or not they get more work.

The optimist in me would point out that people who screw up once are likelier to screw up again. Also, seems pretty foolish to judge somebody based on something a month in. I know the associate this happened with made sure to tell a few people before she left, mostly because seeing who she talked to and body language changes in some of the people she spoke to. I don't think all that many of the people she told would be spiteful, but maybe I'm wrong. Who knows?

[20160810]

Can you rotate groups in the firm

This is a good idea but might not solve the problem because whoever runs Group B is overwhelmingly likely to call whoever runs Group A and ask what this guy is like

Totally agree and OP will probably lateral eventually but if at all possible better to learn a new practice group here, get away from the people bringing him down, and have the skills to move to a new firm in the desired group.

IME firms are actually remarkably willing to let associates move even if they didn't build a stellar rep in the first group.

Agree here that's a good point - get out the kinks where he has little to lose

[Anonymous User]

Can you rotate groups in the firm

This is a good idea but might not solve the problem because whoever runs Group B is overwhelmingly likely to call whoever runs Group A and ask what this guy is like

Totally agree and OP will probably lateral eventually but if at all possible better to learn a new practice group here, get away from the people bringing him down, and have the skills to move to a new firm in the desired group.

IME firms are actually remarkably willing to let associates move even if they didn't build a stellar rep in the first group.

Agree here that's a good point - get out the kinks where he has little to lose

So the gist is I'm already done here, and I should plan accordingly?

[20160810]

We can't possibly know that but if you reasonably think you are consider doing that

[DELG]

It doesn't mean you're about to get fired but being the blackballed associate just seems like a shit experience

[Anonymous User]

We can't possibly know that but if you reasonably think you are consider doing that

To be honest, I didn't know hours were so important for first years, and was never trying to find work for myself. When I have it hasn't been that hard. I guess it's possible that the presumption was we're all gunning for work so if my hours are low then I'm being rejected for work, and I'd only be rejected if I have a bad reputation?

[DELG]

Being able to get plenty of work may just mean you're firm is plenty busy.

[Anonymous User]

Being able to get plenty of work may just mean you're firm is plenty busy.

This is true. Is there risk in asking to switch? My worry would be that if they don't have a need there and you seem like you're unhappy where you are then they're already thinking about replacing you?

[Anonymous User]

Reading earlier posts I thought you might be OK to stay. Reading some updates, I think you're right to leave.

Hours being "hinted at" in a mediocre to poor review is a sign you're going to get canned. You might not get much time at the next talk. You don't know when the next talk is. You're blackballed, which shows the partnership has already decided to move forward without you. Leave. Leave now. Do NOT end up as one of the many associates who buys into the faint hope that partners who can't properly fire people give to associates, only to end up with 30 days to lateral and no hope of doing so.

[Anonymous User]

Being able to get plenty of work may just mean you're firm is plenty busy.

This is true. Is there risk in asking to switch? My worry would be that if they don't have a need there and you seem like you're unhappy where you are then they're already thinking about replacing you?

My only worry would be that you somehow accelerate the hard deadline that, IMO, is in your future. If I were you I'd by trying to fly under the radar as much as possible while using every waking moment to find lateral opportunities.

[Anonymous User]

Reading earlier posts I thought you might be OK to stay. Reading some updates, I think you're right to leave.

Hours being "hinted at" in a mediocre to poor review is a sign you're going to get canned. You might not get much time at the next talk. You don't know when the next talk is. You're blackballed, which shows the partnership has already decided to move forward without you. Leave. Leave now. Do NOT end up as one of the many associates who buys into the faint hope that partners who can't properly fire people give to associates, only to end up with 30 days to lateral and no hope of doing so.

How do you do this though? Just look for job openings on firm websites?

I don't know if I'm actually blackballed. The end of the conversation was we'll speak again in a matter of months, which is when this will either become a non-issue or I will be given a termination date. There was no mention about fit or looking for other opportunities. It was painted as monitoring improvement. I assume that this will either be brought up at the next meeting or the time between now and then will determine if that conversation happens. That said from their perspective, if they know I'm out in x number of months there's no shame in trying to make me as profitable as possible during that time.

The way I see it the two choices here are to focus first and foremost on getting out, or billing a ridiculous amount these next few months. Clearly the status quo is a losing strategy.

[Anonymous User]

Reading earlier posts I thought you might be OK to stay. Reading some updates, I think you're right to leave.

Hours being "hinted at" in a mediocre to poor review is a sign you're going to get canned. You might not get much time at the next talk. You don't know when the next talk is. You're blackballed, which shows the partnership has already decided to move forward without you. Leave. Leave now. Do NOT end up as one of the many associates who buys into the faint hope that partners who can't properly fire people give to associates, only to end up with 30 days to lateral and no hope of doing so.

How do you do this though? Just look for job openings on firm websites?

No. Most firms will list their recruiting contact's email on their website. Draft a TARGETED cover letter and resume and send the contact an email explaining who you are and why you want to move. A recruiter can help you do this as well if you find a good one. Some firms post their positions, but many don't, and many others will consider the correct candidate even if they're not hiring right now. In fact, I recently accepted a lateral offer from a firm whose website specifically said they were not actively hiring lateral candidates right now. Have your transcript ready as well.

[Anonymous User]

Reading earlier posts I thought you might be OK to stay. Reading some updates, I think you're right to leave.

Hours being "hinted at" in a mediocre to poor review is a sign you're going to get canned. You might not get much time at the next talk. You don't know when the next talk is. You're blackballed, which shows the partnership has already decided to move forward without you. Leave. Leave now. Do NOT end up as one of the many associates who buys into the faint hope that partners who can't properly fire people give to associates, only to end up with 30 days to lateral and no hope of doing so.

How do you do this though? Just look for job openings on firm websites?

No. Most firms will list their recruiting contact's email on their website. Draft a TARGETED cover letter and resume and send the contact an email explaining who you are and why you want to move. A recruiter can help you do this as well if you find a good one. Some firms post their positions, but many don't, and many others will consider the correct candidate even if they're not hiring right now. In fact, I recently accepted a lateral offer from a firm whose website specifically said they were not actively hiring lateral candidates right now. Have your transcript ready as well.

Most of the firms I'd be applying to would be firms I've interviewed with in the past. Does this matter?

[Anonymous User]

Reading earlier posts I thought you might be OK to stay. Reading some updates, I think you're right to leave.

Hours being "hinted at" in a mediocre to poor review is a sign you're going to get canned. You might not get much time at the next talk. You don't know when the next talk is. You're blackballed, which shows the partnership has already decided to move forward without you. Leave. Leave now. Do NOT end up as one of the many associates who buys into the faint hope that partners who can't properly fire people give to associates, only to end up with 30 days to lateral and no hope of doing so.

How do you do this though? Just look for job openings on firm websites?

No. Most firms will list their recruiting contact's email on their website. Draft a TARGETED cover letter and resume and send the contact an email explaining who you are and why you want to move. A recruiter can help you do this as well if you find a good one. Some firms post their positions, but many don't, and many others will consider the correct candidate even if they're not hiring right now. In fact, I recently accepted a lateral offer from a firm whose website specifically said they were not actively hiring lateral candidates right now. Have your transcript ready as well.

Most of the firms I'd be applying to would be firms I've interviewed with in the past. Does this matter?

I interviewed at places that both rejected me and gave me offers at OCI. For the rejection firms, no, it didn't matter at all. I'm not sure anyone even knew that I'd interviewed there before. For the offer firms, be prepared for questions like "Why didn't you go with us X years ago? Are there any concerns I can address?" If anything I would be sure to target firms who gave you an offer before - you already know they like[d] you.

[Anonymous User]

Reading earlier posts I thought you might be OK to stay. Reading some updates, I think you're right to leave.

Hours being "hinted at" in a mediocre to poor review is a sign you're going to get canned. You might not get much time at the next talk. You don't know when the next talk is. You're blackballed, which shows the partnership has already decided to move forward without you. Leave. Leave now. Do NOT end up as one of the many associates who buys into the faint hope that partners who can't properly fire people give to associates, only to end up with 30 days to lateral and no hope of doing so.

How do you do this though? Just look for job openings on firm websites?

No. Most firms will list their recruiting contact's email on their website. Draft a TARGETED cover letter and resume and send the contact an email explaining who you are and why you want to move. A recruiter can help you do this as well if you find a good one. Some firms post their positions, but many don't, and many others will consider the correct candidate even if they're not hiring right now. In fact, I recently accepted a lateral offer from a firm whose website specifically said they were not actively hiring lateral candidates right now. Have your transcript ready as well.

Most of the firms I'd be applying to would be firms I've interviewed with in the past. Does this matter?

Not nearly as much as you would think. I currently work for a firm that rejected me when I applied for a SA gig as a 2L.

First, the odds are very good that nobody will even remember who you are. Most law school interviewees are supremely unmemorable. (That's not a bad thing since I only remember the ones who really suck.) If they ask about it in a future interview just laugh it off and say something to the effect of "If at first you don't succeed..."

Second, if they interviewed you once already, it means you probably are at least presumptively qualified to work in the office, so this is as much a good thing as a bad thing.

[Anonymous User]

Reading earlier posts I thought you might be OK to stay. Reading some updates, I think you're right to leave.

Hours being "hinted at" in a mediocre to poor review is a sign you're going to get canned. You might not get much time at the next talk. You don't know when the next talk is. You're blackballed, which shows the partnership has already decided to move forward without you. Leave. Leave now. Do NOT end up as one of the many associates who buys into the faint hope that partners who can't properly fire people give to associates, only to end up with 30 days to lateral and no hope of doing so.

How do you do this though? Just look for job openings on firm websites?

No. Most firms will list their recruiting contact's email on their website. Draft a TARGETED cover letter and resume and send the contact an email explaining who you are and why you want to move. A recruiter can help you do this as well if you find a good one. Some firms post their positions, but many don't, and many others will consider the correct candidate even if they're not hiring right now. In fact, I recently accepted a lateral offer from a firm whose website specifically said they were not actively hiring lateral candidates right now. Have your transcript ready as well.

Most of the firms I'd be applying to would be firms I've interviewed with in the past. Does this matter?

I interviewed at places that both rejected me and gave me offers at OCI. For the rejection firms, no, it didn't matter at all. I'm not sure anyone even knew that I'd interviewed there before. For the offer firms, be prepared for questions like "Why didn't you go with us X years ago? Are there any concerns I can address?" If anything I would be sure to target firms who gave you an offer before - you already know they like[d] you.

I'm curious about how to paint wanting to change different groups without looking flaky. I also didn't try hard after 1L because I didn't think I'd be forced to lateral this early so my grades plummeted a significant amount, but are still top third or so. I only mention this because I underperformed at OCI.

[20160810]

Top third from what kind of school?

[Anonymous User]

Top third from what kind of school?

I'm worried about outing myself - a school well represented in big law, but not harvard.

[Anonymous User]

I'm curious about how to paint wanting to change different groups without looking flaky. I also didn't try hard after 1L because I didn't think I'd be forced to lateral this early so my grades plummeted a significant amount, but are still top third or so. I only mention this because I underperformed at OCI.

Ultimately the best way to paint things are in ways that are truthful and that you believe. Ideally you could say something like: the firm promised that I'd be in practice group X / rotating / etc., but when I actually started I was only working in group Y. I gave it a legitimate shot but don't want to specialize in Y, so I'm leaving before it's too late. That answers a) why you're leaving, b) why the departure is so early, and c) why you want to change groups. But if it's not true in your case, it'll probably set off your interviewer's BS detector.

I don't know if the above applies in your case. I know it isn't altogether too uncommon for firms to tell law school candidates that there's plenty of work in some sexy field (e.g. entertainment) only to stick them in some other group two years later, because in reality the firm doesn't really do much entertainment work.