leaving big law; want work-life balance Forum

[treeey86]

You might want to try to go in-house for a F500 Company in a role as a general commercials transactions attorney or marketing attorney or some other role where the primary responsibility is to advise on vendor/commercial transactions (like equipment agreements, services agreements, general corporate matters, review of third party rights and software licenses, negotiate sale of high valued inventory, etc). All of these companies have a few attorneys doing this kind of work because of the volume of these types of projects that come in. The floor and ceiling vary from company to company, but generally salaries are ranged from $110k - $185k + other benefits (sometimes stock or bonuses, etc). In terms of work-life balance that is probably the best gig there is out there. You might not ever clear $200K a year, but you sure will be out of the office most days by 6 and likely dont have to be back until 9 or 9:30 the following morning. Weekends are normally completely free unless special circumstances because your clients are going to be 9-5 salaried employees who dont want to work on the weekends either and tend to either understand if the deal needs to wait until the Monday or just give you enough time to get the deal done ahead of time. And their bosses are also people who dont want to work on the weekends either.

I know this because I work inhouse at an agency and that is generally how it is for me. Our corporate clients are F500 companies and their legal generally also operates as I have described above. The issue is getting in because usually spots in the legal departments do not often open up. Unless you do a bad job or rub the wrong people the wrong way or your company's financial condition goes down (or your company is bought out), these in-house positions are pretty job secure

[Anonymous User]

If you're doing lit or regulatory practices, it's not at all uncommon in D.C. to be a well-regarded associate who works 9:30-6:30 most days with some occasional late nights and occasional weekend work. Also, you're not likely to do much better at a small firm with respect to predictable schedules. I don't know where that belief started, but everyone I know at smaller firms works hours that are just as random and imbalanced as mine are in BigLaw; and many are much, much worse because their compensation and job security is directly tied to hours much more so than in lockstep BigLaw.

I agree with the general thrust of your post but I think you're setting unrealistic expectations here as far as working 9:30-6:30 with "occasional" nights and weekends.

Yeah that seems unusual.

Lawyers generally work longer hours than most people, so this is a bad profession to enter if you want high QOL. That said, non-trial government jobs seem to generally have good hours and some (but not all) public interest orgs.

If you want high QOL, you should consider leaving the profession though - law is worst than most with respect to hours.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

If you're doing lit or regulatory practices, it's not at all uncommon in D.C. to be a well-regarded associate who works 9:30-6:30 most days with some occasional late nights and occasional weekend work. Also, you're not likely to do much better at a small firm with respect to predictable schedules. I don't know where that belief started, but everyone I know at smaller firms works hours that are just as random and imbalanced as mine are in BigLaw; and many are much, much worse because their compensation and job security is directly tied to hours much more so than in lockstep BigLaw.

I agree with the general thrust of your post but I think you're setting unrealistic expectations here as far as working 9:30-6:30 with "occasional" nights and weekends.

Yeah that seems unusual.

Lawyers generally work longer hours than most people, so this is a bad profession to enter if you want high QOL. That said, non-trial government jobs seem to generally have good hours and some (but not all) public interest orgs.

If you want high QOL, you should consider leaving the profession though - law is worst than most with respect to hours.

i do mostly regulatory work which comes with more set hours (not litigation set, but never M&A style nights on end)--but you only control your hours to the extent that don't have more work to bill. kinda the issue with the business model, the better you are, the more work you get (and more work = more revenue --> profit for partners).

you might say that's true with most businesses, but law firm life is very clearly a combo of leveraging associates and billing hours.

[favabeansoup]

you might say that's true with most businesses, but law firm life is very clearly a combo of leveraging associates and billing hours.

Welcome to every single firm job in the world. Only way you don't have this is government or inhouse. Gov is probably best bet if you do regulatory work.

To be honest, firms aren't exactly hiding the terrible QOL that associates have. Every firm has published billable targets and plenty of associate reviews online. It's the same in other high paying positions like investment banking. Associates are worked to death to drive up profits for firms while at same time narrowing partnership opportunities. It's actually a pretty nice business model can't blame them.

Not trying to be judgmental too, but surely you must have seen some of these QOL problems coming from far off with your kids. I thought it was pretty common knowledge about the life and hour expectations of big law associates.

[Anonymous User]

you might say that's true with most businesses, but law firm life is very clearly a combo of leveraging associates and billing hours.

Welcome to every single firm job in the world. Only way you don't have this is government or inhouse. Gov is probably best bet if you do regulatory work.

To be honest, firms aren't exactly hiding the terrible QOL that associates have. Every firm has published billable targets and plenty of associate reviews online. It's the same in other high paying positions like investment banking. Associates are worked to death to drive up profits for firms while at same time narrowing partnership opportunities. It's actually a pretty nice business model can't blame them.

Not trying to be judgmental too, but surely you must have seen some of these QOL problems coming from far off with your kids. I thought it was pretty common knowledge about the life and hour expectations of big law associates.

Well, some smaller firms talk about QOL, but what they usually mean is like 10/10.5 hours a day, rather than 12 to 14 hours a day...lol. Most non-legal/i-banking/big 4 jobs office jobs are like a legit 8 hour day....

Law is just a shitty field to get into if you want QOL.

[Glasseyes]

As a fellow parent about to start a DC SA in a couple weeks, it would mean the world to me if some of the posters in this thread with experience with this situation at DC firms (good or bad) could shoot me a PM.

[Danger Zone]

you might say that's true with most businesses, but law firm life is very clearly a combo of leveraging associates and billing hours.

Welcome to every single firm job in the world. Only way you don't have this is government or inhouse. Gov is probably best bet if you do regulatory work.

To be honest, firms aren't exactly hiding the terrible QOL that associates have. Every firm has published billable targets and plenty of associate reviews online. It's the same in other high paying positions like investment banking. Associates are worked to death to drive up profits for firms while at same time narrowing partnership opportunities. It's actually a pretty nice business model can't blame them.

Not trying to be judgmental too, but surely you must have seen some of these QOL problems coming from far off with your kids. I thought it was pretty common knowledge about the life and hour expectations of big law associates.

Well, some smaller firms talk about QOL, but what they usually mean is like 10/10.5 hours a day, rather than 12 to 14 hours a day...lol. Most non-legal/i-banking/big 4 jobs office jobs are like a legit 8 hour day....

Law is just a shitty field to get into if you want QOL.

I banking and big 4 jobs are not 8 hour work days. Not in NYC at least.

[BayCat24]

you might say that's true with most businesses, but law firm life is very clearly a combo of leveraging associates and billing hours.

Welcome to every single firm job in the world. Only way you don't have this is government or inhouse. Gov is probably best bet if you do regulatory work.

To be honest, firms aren't exactly hiding the terrible QOL that associates have. Every firm has published billable targets and plenty of associate reviews online. It's the same in other high paying positions like investment banking. Associates are worked to death to drive up profits for firms while at same time narrowing partnership opportunities. It's actually a pretty nice business model can't blame them.

Not trying to be judgmental too, but surely you must have seen some of these QOL problems coming from far off with your kids. I thought it was pretty common knowledge about the life and hour expectations of big law associates.

Well, some smaller firms talk about QOL, but what they usually mean is like 10/10.5 hours a day, rather than 12 to 14 hours a day...lol. Most non-legal/i-banking/big 4 jobs office jobs are like a legit 8 hour day....

Law is just a shitty field to get into if you want QOL.

I banking and big 4 jobs are not 8 hour work days. Not in NYC at least.

I think the "non-" applied to the entire list in addition to legal

[Danger Zone]

Oh now I get it

[OutOfTheQuestion]

Now I make $175 + bonus, but I only need $140k to make ends meet. Possible for a junior-level associate to make 140K+ in DC, w/ good exit options to Midwest after 2-4 years?

Skimmed the replies and didn't see anyone address this. I would be very skeptical of finding a career path that is going to send you to the Midwest with a good work-life balance job and still pay you anywhere near $140k. I don't know if places like Faegre, Dorsey, Sidley Austin (Chi), etc. pay lockstep for laterals, but even if they do, the pay is not that great at all. I think third years at Faegre in MN make 125k? And it's NOT a place with good work-life balance, as far as I've heard. In fact, I know people at all three firms and I don't think any of them--or any market-paying firms like them in Chicago, St. Louis, Minneapolis, etc.--are anything near "lifestyle" firms. And there's always Jones-Day Cleveland! (LOL)

I know plenty of small firm partners who clear $150k - $275k per year with 40 hours per week (gratuitous brag: like me), but you're not going to lateral into that. You can try to get on as an associate at one of those firms making $40k - $55k and build a book to make partner within 4-7 years, but (1) coming from biglaw, those firms will see you as damaged goods, and (2) you probably don't want to do that / can't afford to do that anyway.

Fed gov't might be your only bet, and there are all sorts of problems with fed gov't jobs. I would never want another one. But check it out, you might not mind going that route.

You have to understand that there are very few jobs that allow you to work an easy work week and still pay you $140k. That applies to the legal field and to other fields as well. It's just very uncommon because most people don't have that type of economic value or efficiency. Those that do have usually built up to it over time. Basically have invested in their advertising, image, reputation, etc. for several years.

Just curious, what makes you feel that way?

[smallfirmassociate]

Just curious, what makes you feel that way?

A lot of reasons, but for the sake of brevity here's a half-ass list:

1. One bad boss can make your life miserable, and there are a lot of bad bosses.
2. No room whatsoever for creativity, very hard to be your own person, lack of control over your job. I am a freelancer in that I practice law my own way, set my own hours (within reason), decide which cases to take, etc. This doesn't mesh well with government jobs.
3. Bureaucracy. I used to have to host our "esteemed" visitors, and it seemed like every two weeks. It was highly annoying and you were expected to ass-kiss b/c funding, etc. There are a lot of other issues with the bureaucracy too, like stupid mandatory trainings and all kinds of other wastes of time.
4. Repetitiveness. Most gov't jobs involve you specializing and doing the same thing over and over. If you're at the USAO, for example, you don't do prosecution. You do prosecution of guns 'n drugs cases, or prosecution of immigration violations, or prosecutions of certain white collar crimes, etc. Similar setup in other gov't offices in my experience.
5. Pay. Not bad, but most of the gov't jobs that pay respectably expect you to work well over 40 hours per week, at which point: why government?
6. The fraudulent nature of the benefits vis a vis office culture. Kind of hard to explain, but as an example: a lot of gov't agencies like to brag about how much time you get to take off and stuff, but then you take the job and everyone has tons of accrued time that they haven't taken off because the culture is shitty and people in "certain jobs" are expected to not take much time off.
7. Support staff. Everything "they" say about not being able to get rid of government employees is totally true. As a result, there are some really shitty workers. Even worse than shitty private sector workers, IME.
8. Setting. I've seen GS-14's in cubicles. Shitty offices. Few perks and minimal creature comforts at work.

I could actually go on for a long time, but you get the idea. It just doesn't fit my personality. Someone with a different personality might find those gripes to be nit-picky or something, but they were big problems for me.

[RaceJudicata]

Now I make $175 + bonus, but I only need $140k to make ends meet. Possible for a junior-level associate to make 140K+ in DC, w/ good exit options to Midwest after 2-4 years?

Skimmed the replies and didn't see anyone address this. I would be very skeptical of finding a career path that is going to send you to the Midwest with a good work-life balance job and still pay you anywhere near $140k. I don't know if places like Faegre, Dorsey, Sidley Austin (Chi), etc. pay lockstep for laterals, but even if they do, the pay is not that great at all. I think third years at Faegre in MN make 125k? And it's NOT a place with good work-life balance, as far as I've heard. In fact, I know people at all three firms and I don't think any of them--or any market-paying firms like them in Chicago, St. Louis, Minneapolis, etc.--are anything near "lifestyle" firms. And there's always Jones-Day Cleveland! (LOL)

I know plenty of small firm partners who clear $150k - $275k per year with 40 hours per week (gratuitous brag: like me), but you're not going to lateral into that. You can try to get on as an associate at one of those firms making $40k - $55k and build a book to make partner within 4-7 years, but (1) coming from biglaw, those firms will see you as damaged goods, and (2) you probably don't want to do that / can't afford to do that anyway.

Fed gov't might be your only bet, and there are all sorts of problems with fed gov't jobs. I would never want another one. But check it out, you might not mind going that route.

You have to understand that there are very few jobs that allow you to work an easy work week and still pay you $140k. That applies to the legal field and to other fields as well. It's just very uncommon because most people don't have that type of economic value or efficiency. Those that do have usually built up to it over time. Basically have invested in their advertising, image, reputation, etc. for several years.

Sidley chicago is a terrible example and is not remotely similar to the other firms you have mentioned--and pays NYC market salaries (or close to it). Glad to hear you make $150-275k per year. You da man/woman!

[First Offense]

I mean - have you thought of asking the partner you're working for/someone who can say yes if you can plug in from home every now and then? Not a complete solution - but might help.

[Anonymous User]

it seems like people in biglaw are always trying to get out and people who just graduated are all trying to get in. I rarely hear good stories out of biglaw life. Don't know what to believe as a recent grad.

[Stevoman]

Decent pay
Work-life balance
DC (or NYC, or other high-COL area)

Pick two. If you can land a Federal Government job, that might get you halfway to all three. But good luck winning that lotto as a 2nd year.

You need to be realistic: Either move out of DC to a cheaper (and more family-friendly) area, or accept sweatshop hours.

[Stevoman]

it seems like people in biglaw are always trying to get out and people who just graduated are all trying to get in. I rarely hear good stories out of biglaw life. Don't know what to believe as a recent grad.

This forum is a virtual graveyard of posts that follow this formula:

0L poster: "Oh no, I'm different and a special snowflake. Surely [the LSAT/law school/the job market/big law] isn't that bad!"

3 years later: "OMG you guys were so right, it really is that bad! I hate everything about my life but can't change anything now because I'm 100k in debt."

Everyone shows new 0Ls the "3 years later" posts. The new 0Ls ignore everything they're told, say the same things the old 0Ls said, and wind up in the same spot. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

[First Offense]

it seems like people in biglaw are always trying to get out and people who just graduated are all trying to get in. I rarely hear good stories out of biglaw life. Don't know what to believe as a recent grad.

This forum is a virtual graveyard of posts that follow this formula:

0L poster: "Oh no, I'm different and a special snowflake. Surely [the LSAT/law school/the job market/big law] isn't that bad!"

3 years later: "OMG you guys were so right, it really is that bad! I hate everything about my life but can't change anything now because I'm 100k in debt."

Everyone shows new 0Ls the "3 years later" posts. The new 0Ls ignore everything they're told, say the same things the old 0Ls said, and wind up in the same spot. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

I liked law school.

[Das]

it seems like people in biglaw are always trying to get out and people who just graduated are all trying to get in. I rarely hear good stories out of biglaw life. Don't know what to believe as a recent grad.

This forum is a virtual graveyard of posts that follow this formula:

0L poster: "Oh no, I'm different and a special snowflake. Surely [the LSAT/law school/the job market/big law] isn't that bad!"

3 years later: "OMG you guys were so right, it really is that bad! I hate everything about my life but can't change anything now because I'm 100k in debt."

Everyone shows new 0Ls the "3 years later" posts. The new 0Ls ignore everything they're told, say the same things the old 0Ls said, and wind up in the same spot. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

I liked law school.

yeah law school was badass. i just wish i could meet someone, even on the internet, who enjoys biglaw. maybe those partners and "partner-tracked" employees have a special/unique personality.

[Mr. Blackacre]

it seems like people in biglaw are always trying to get out and people who just graduated are all trying to get in. I rarely hear good stories out of biglaw life. Don't know what to believe as a recent grad.

This forum is a virtual graveyard of posts that follow this formula:

0L poster: "Oh no, I'm different and a special snowflake. Surely [the LSAT/law school/the job market/big law] isn't that bad!"

3 years later: "OMG you guys were so right, it really is that bad! I hate everything about my life but can't change anything now because I'm 100k in debt."

Everyone shows new 0Ls the "3 years later" posts. The new 0Ls ignore everything they're told, say the same things the old 0Ls said, and wind up in the same spot. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

I liked law school.

yeah law school was badass. i just wish i could meet someone, even on the internet, who enjoys biglaw. maybe those partners and "partner-tracked" employees have a special/unique personality.

I've read a couple of posts from people on this forum (and know first-hand of a few) who, on the balance, had more good than bad to say about their biglaw experience. Granted, none of them "loved" biglaw, and for everyone who says the experience was ok 50 people talk about how soul-crushing it was, but they are out there. The blissful 1%.
Personally, as a soon-to-be 3L with hopefully a DC offer by the end of the summer, I plan like everyone else to throw in my 3-5 years and bail. A big part of that plan was limiting the debt in order to avoid the golden handcuffs and be able to leave early if I really hate it. But (as a still somewhat special snowflake) I'm not discounting the fact that I might like it. I personally know of people who do, and who I promise are non-sociopathic, decent people to be around.

[smallfirmassociate]

Sidley chicago is a terrible example and is not remotely similar to the other firms you have mentioned--and pays NYC market salaries (or close to it).

My bad. I'm not sure how many jobs you are going to get in the Midwest that pay NYC market, though, and roughly zero of them are going to be anything resembling a "lifestyle firm" (does anyone else wince when they see that term?).

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

it seems like people in biglaw are always trying to get out and people who just graduated are all trying to get in. I rarely hear good stories out of biglaw life. Don't know what to believe as a recent grad.

This forum is a virtual graveyard of posts that follow this formula:

0L poster: "Oh no, I'm different and a special snowflake. Surely [the LSAT/law school/the job market/big law] isn't that bad!"

3 years later: "OMG you guys were so right, it really is that bad! I hate everything about my life but can't change anything now because I'm 100k in debt."

Everyone shows new 0Ls the "3 years later" posts. The new 0Ls ignore everything they're told, say the same things the old 0Ls said, and wind up in the same spot. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

I liked law school.

yeah law school was badass. i just wish i could meet someone, even on the internet, who enjoys biglaw. maybe those partners and "partner-tracked" employees have a special/unique personality.

I've read a couple of posts from people on this forum (and know first-hand of a few) who, on the balance, had more good than bad to say about their biglaw experience. Granted, none of them "loved" biglaw, and for everyone who says the experience was ok 50 people talk about how soul-crushing it was, but they are out there. The blissful 1%.
Personally, as a soon-to-be 3L with hopefully a DC offer by the end of the summer, I plan like everyone else to throw in my 3-5 years and bail. A big part of that plan was limiting the debt in order to avoid the golden handcuffs and be able to leave early if I really hate it. But (as a still somewhat special snowflake) I'm not discounting the fact that I might like it. I personally know of people who do, and who I promise are non-sociopathic, decent people to be around.

Just so you know, 3-5 years is a lot of time. It's too late for you, but be forewarned from 1 of the 99%.

[Danger Zone]

8 months has felt like a goddamn eternity

[dixiecupdrinking]

8 months has felt like a goddamn eternity

You'll enter a fugue state soon and the next two years will fly by, don't worry.

[Lexaholik]

You'll probably be able to find something better than what you have right now, but let's not kid ourselves: Any job where you generate value for your employer through hours worked will have work-life issues. Even if you're willing to take a salary cut and move to a new market where billable requirements are lower, you will always face pressure to work more.

[emkay625]

OP have you considered moving to the Midwest now as opposed to in a few years? COL would be lower and you could thus take a slightly lower-paying job. Why wait? What's keeping you in DC?