Backing out from a federal judge after acceptance Forum

[Anonymous User]

reactions to pissing off federal judges vary from school to school. But one of the consequences include foreclosure of all services providing to that student, i.e., cutting that one off the email list.

Considering OP is a 1L, and the fact he or she will need CSO at some point, and the gravity of the violation ( not saying so to a judge is a repeated rule of conduct); Depsite the situation of being an international student- I wouldn't risk this.

If the judge or the admin clerk is amicable, talking to them and thinking about an alternative- split the summer. dont renege especially after you have finalized the acceptance.

[Anonymous User]

I am a current clerk and I have experience reneging (different judge) and have talked with past clerks about this.

ABSOLUTELY take the PAID firm job that will SPONSOR you!!

My experience - I was a 2L interning with a federal judge in the spring. I struck out at OCI and was looking at a bunch of random places (midsize, inhouse, etc.). Judge approached me during my internship and asked me how my summer job search was going, blah blah blah...she ended up extending me an offer to stay for the summer. After not finding anything I thought would provide a better experience, I accepted her offer. About a month later and about 3 weeks before I was going to start, I got an interview from a firm that I had mass mailed. 2 weeks later I had an offer for a paid summer job (this is now a week before I am scheduled to start).

I reached out to a few clerks that I had worked with during past internships and one of the judges past clerks. They all told me to ABSOLUTELY take the paid summer job. So I did. I called the judges current clerk and asked if there was a time that I could come in and speak with the Judge. I went in, talked with the judge in person, and explained to the judge what was going on. I apologized for the inconvenience that this would cause and how I understood this was not the "recommended" thing to do, but explained my reasoning for taking the other job (i.e. pay, potential for full- time post graduate employments, etc.).

The judge wasn't happy that I wasn't going to be working for her, but she understood. I ended up applying for clerkships and many of the judges I was applying to reached out to her (because she was listed on my resume). I ended up landing a clerkship, so it appears she wasn't too upset.

I'm sure there are Judges out there who would hold this against you, but if your judge is one of them, do you really want to work for this type of person? (this may sound rude or condescending, but it applies to me as well) I think a lot of times law students/interns overestimate their importance. Yes, Judges care about you. But no you probably aren't going to be working directly with the Judge. Judges do not NEED interns and do it as a way to "give back." There are hundreds of other students that they can get to fill your spot.

Let's put this in perspective...what we are talking about here is an UNPAID position that has no chances of full time post-graduation employment or receiving a sponsor vs a PAID position, good/great chance of a full time post-grad employment that would include a sponsor. NO-brainer...you go to law school to get a job. Take the job.

Advice - Go explain the situation to the judge in person (I guess a phone call is okay if you are in a different city). Be sincere and apologize. Be prepared for the worst case scenario of not being able to participate in OCI if the judge reaches out to your school (but you can always mass mail). Go take the money and sponsor from the firm.

[BmoreOrLess]

Sounds like a no brainer to take the job with the potential of sponsorship, but you have to look into how this might affect you with CSO. Some schools might ban you from CSO for accepting and then ditching a judge (especially a federal one).

What exactly does a CSO ban entail? Are you trespassed from the CSO office? Do they block you from sending emails? I understand if they won't assist you with your job or internship search, but I have never heard of a full on ban. I didn't go to a law school with an active or helpful CSO so I am unfamiliar with how these offices are supposed to work.

Are you Bluelotus?

[kellyfrost]

Sounds like a no brainer to take the job with the potential of sponsorship, but you have to look into how this might affect you with CSO. Some schools might ban you from CSO for accepting and then ditching a judge (especially a federal one).

What exactly does a CSO ban entail? Are you trespassed from the CSO office? Do they block you from sending emails? I understand if they won't assist you with your job or internship search, but I have never heard of a full on ban. I didn't go to a law school with an active or helpful CSO so I am unfamiliar with how these offices are supposed to work.

Are you Bluelotus?

No. Can you explain the consequences of being banned by CSO? Something foreign to me. I never used CSO except for attending some job search workshops and meeting with a CSO officer to discuss salary negotiations, in which I received poor advice that I did not follow.

[GreenEggs]

Probably take away your access to symplicity

[RaceJudicata]

I am a current clerk and I have experience reneging (different judge) and have talked with past clerks about this.

ABSOLUTELY take the PAID firm job that will SPONSOR you!!

My experience - I was a 2L interning with a federal judge in the spring. I struck out at OCI and was looking at a bunch of random places (midsize, inhouse, etc.). Judge approached me during my internship and asked me how my summer job search was going, blah blah blah...she ended up extending me an offer to stay for the summer. After not finding anything I thought would provide a better experience, I accepted her offer. About a month later and about 3 weeks before I was going to start, I got an interview from a firm that I had mass mailed. 2 weeks later I had an offer for a paid summer job (this is now a week before I am scheduled to start).

I reached out to a few clerks that I had worked with during past internships and one of the judges past clerks. They all told me to ABSOLUTELY take the paid summer job. So I did. I called the judges current clerk and asked if there was a time that I could come in and speak with the Judge. I went in, talked with the judge in person, and explained to the judge what was going on. I apologized for the inconvenience that this would cause and how I understood this was not the "recommended" thing to do, but explained my reasoning for taking the other job (i.e. pay, potential for full- time post graduate employments, etc.).

The judge wasn't happy that I wasn't going to be working for her, but she understood. I ended up applying for clerkships and many of the judges I was applying to reached out to her (because she was listed on my resume). I ended up landing a clerkship, so it appears she wasn't too upset.

I'm sure there are Judges out there who would hold this against you, but if your judge is one of them, do you really want to work for this type of person? (this may sound rude or condescending, but it applies to me as well) I think a lot of times law students/interns overestimate their importance. Yes, Judges care about you. But no you probably aren't going to be working directly with the Judge. Judges do not NEED interns and do it as a way to "give back." There are hundreds of other students that they can get to fill your spot.

Let's put this in perspective...what we are talking about here is an UNPAID position that has no chances of full time post-graduation employment or receiving a sponsor vs a PAID position, good/great chance of a full time post-grad employment that would include a sponsor. NO-brainer...you go to law school to get a job. Take the job.

Advice - Go explain the situation to the judge in person (I guess a phone call is okay if you are in a different city). Be sincere and apologize. Be prepared for the worst case scenario of not being able to participate in OCI if the judge reaches out to your school (but you can always mass mail). Go take the money and sponsor from the firm.

Listen to this and don't look back.

[Anonymous User]

OP you are different from the long anon you are a one 1 L and you THINK you gonna strike out while that guy DID strike out

[ballouttacontrol]

Sounds like a no brainer to take the job with the potential of sponsorship, but you have to look into how this might affect you with CSO. Some schools might ban you from CSO for accepting and then ditching a judge (especially a federal one).

What exactly does a CSO ban entail? Are you trespassed from the CSO office? Do they block you from sending emails? I understand if they won't assist you with your job or internship search, but I have never heard of a full on ban. I didn't go to a law school with an active or helpful CSO so I am unfamiliar with how these offices are supposed to work.

Are you Bluelotus?

No. Can you explain the consequences of being banned by CSO? Something foreign to me. I never used CSO except for attending some job search workshops and meeting with a CSO officer to discuss salary negotiations, in which I received poor advice that I did not follow.

Being banned from OCI.....

[Anonymous User]

Current clerk. The judge would have to be a special breed to not only get upset over losing a 1L intern, but to actually reach out to the school's CSO and try to screw over the student long-term. Sane judges (from my experience, the vast majority) would completely understand your situation. And spoiler alert: 1L interns are not all that helpful or hard to find. The minuscule chance that the judge will completely overreact to this does not seem to be worth turning down a paying job and will sponsor you.

[Anonymous User]

OP you are different from the long anon you are a one 1 L and you THINK you gonna strike out while that guy DID strike out

Long anon from above. So you are telling OP to pass up a paid biglaw summer position, because OP MAY be banned from OCI at the school and MAY find a better job through OCI? Just because you can't "participate" in OCI does not mean you can't mass mail and try and find a BETTER biglaw offer on your own.

I hate to be this guy, but "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

Once again lets play this out
(a) Take the Paid job --> (i) Best case scenario = Take the paid job, judge is a normal human, you get to participate in OCI, and you end up with post-grad full time employment and sponsor or (ii) Worst case scenario = Take the paid job, Judge freaks out, no OCI (but can still mass mail and network), and you end up with post-grad full time employment and sponsor

or

(b) Take the judicial internship ----> (i) Best case scenario = work with judge, participate in OCI, end up with post grad full time employment and sponsor or (ii) worst case scenario = work with judge, participate in OCI, don't land anything, don't have post-grad full time employment and no sponsor

Easy choice. Option A. Take the job.

[Anonymous User]

what firm sign a 1L? I'm not even 100% sure about my 2L SA gig. How can the OP be sure that he will be able to get 2L summer offer, as well as post-grad offer? what firm is it seems like a joint venture of the punctillio of loyalty just formed.

[Anonymous User]

judges don't have to be mad to let the career service know and ban you from OCI, 1L clerk is invisible to judges that doesn't mean you can say no to them after you freaking get your finger prints approved. People who get biglaw job get them through OCI, massmail seems to be prevalent in TLS but it RARELY works. Massmail are for 2L who struck out and had to do massmail like a mad dog. I cannot possibly think of a reason why your firm cannot hire you again back as a 2L, knowing that you are doing great work with a federal judge 1L. It's hilarious how previous anon think you should snatch something up and seal the deal like you'd be some damaged good as a 2L with district court internship.

[rpupkin]

judges don't have to be mad to let the career service know and ban you from OCI, 1L clerk is invisible to judges that doesn't mean you can say no to them after you freaking get your finger prints approved. People who get biglaw job get them through OCI, massmail seems to be prevalent in TLS but it RARELY works. Massmail are for 2L who struck out and had to do massmail like a mad dog. I cannot possibly think of a reason why your firm cannot hire you again back as a 2L, knowing that you are doing great work with a federal judge 1L. It's hilarious how previous anon think you should snatch something up and seal the deal like you'd be some damaged good as a 2L with district court internship.

This post is awful on so many levels.

[mrs.miawallace]

OP try to split, problem solved

[Anonymous User]

judges don't have to be mad to let the career service know and ban you from OCI, 1L clerk is invisible to judges that doesn't mean you can say no to them after you freaking get your finger prints approved. People who get biglaw job get them through OCI, massmail seems to be prevalent in TLS but it RARELY works. Massmail are for 2L who struck out and had to do massmail like a mad dog. I cannot possibly think of a reason why your firm cannot hire you again back as a 2L, knowing that you are doing great work with a federal judge 1L. It's hilarious how previous anon think you should snatch something up and seal the deal like you'd be some damaged good as a 2L with district court internship.

This post is awful on so many levels.

why? Cuz I offended mass-mailing 2Ls?

[Anonymous User]

judges don't have to be mad to let the career service know and ban you from OCI, 1L clerk is invisible to judges that doesn't mean you can say no to them after you freaking get your finger prints approved. People who get biglaw job get them through OCI, massmail seems to be prevalent in TLS but it RARELY works. Massmail are for 2L who struck out and had to do massmail like a mad dog. I cannot possibly think of a reason why your firm cannot hire you again back as a 2L, knowing that you are doing great work with a federal judge 1L. It's hilarious how previous anon think you should snatch something up and seal the deal like you'd be some damaged good as a 2L with district court internship.

This post is awful on so many levels.

why? Cuz I offended mass-mailing 2Ls?

No, it's because the advice you're giving is objectively terrible. Do you have any experience in chambers? The vast majority of judges would absolutely not contact OCS over something like this.
Beyond that, saying mass mailing is only for 2Ls who strike out or that OP should magically expect for the firm to hire him again next year demonstrates that you have no clue about how law firm hiring works.

[A. Nony Mouse]

what firm is it seems like a joint venture of the punctillio of loyalty just formed.

what does this even mean

[Anonymous User]

judges don't have to be mad to let the career service know and ban you from OCI, 1L clerk is invisible to judges that doesn't mean you can say no to them after you freaking get your finger prints approved. People who get biglaw job get them through OCI, massmail seems to be prevalent in TLS but it RARELY works. Massmail are for 2L who struck out and had to do massmail like a mad dog. I cannot possibly think of a reason why your firm cannot hire you again back as a 2L, knowing that you are doing great work with a federal judge 1L. It's hilarious how previous anon think you should snatch something up and seal the deal like you'd be some damaged good as a 2L with district court internship.

This post is awful on so many levels.

why? Cuz I offended mass-mailing 2Ls?

previous long anon above

(i) finger prints take like 10 minutes and they are completed by a staff member. Not a big deal. Like I said, I was a week out when I backed out.

(ii) I think mass mailing post oci is far less effective then doing it before hand. Seen (and heard of) alot more success from people who start over the summer. Mass mailing is not just for people who struck out. I'm not going to argue the merits of mass mailing.

(iii) You are completely over stating the weight firms give judicial internships.

(iv) Again giving to much weight. Also not saying you would be damaged goods, but passing up an offer in hand is a lot more valuable than a potential offer through oci. I am not saying OP will not get a job through oci. What I am is saying that there is risk associated with passing on this offer (and passing on a sponsor). Just as there is a risk associated with telling a judge no after you have already accepted the offer. All I am is saying that weighing the pros/cons I think it is a relatively easy decision.

(v) Your post is awful because you are making comments and giving advice without offering any support. You are attacking current clerks, who work with judges on a daily basis, and have gone through OCI and the job search process. I went through almost the exact same situation (minus the need for a sponsor which makes this an even easier call). I have talked with other clerks about this. What you are saying is just wrong.

[RaceJudicata]

Talk about beating a dead horse.

OP - some folks say you should renege; others say you shouldn't renege.

A few have even given suggestions about how to renege.

Still others--namely, the former or current clerks-- have given you first hand info.

Take this information and do as you will. Good luck -- enjoy models and bottles.

[Anonymous User]

OCI is the most efficient way to find biglaw jobs. AND IT'S LITERALLY TWO MONTHS AWAY. OP if not aspie or has shit grades this semester, is chicken little if at this point he takes anything as long as it gives out sponsorship? Most of the NYC Biglaw give H1B sponsorship. There is no need to choose one fork OP can have both here.

[PvblivsScipio]

OCI is the most efficient way to find biglaw jobs. AND IT'S LITERALLY TWO MONTHS AWAY. OP if not aspie or has shit grades this semester, is chicken little if at this point he takes anything as long as it gives out sponsorship? Most of the NYC Biglaw give H1B sponsorship. There is no need to choose one fork OP can have both here.

Without being rude, is English your first language? Because not only is your advice terrible, your posts are horribly written.

No offer.

[A. Nony Mouse]

OCI is the most efficient way to find biglaw jobs. AND IT'S LITERALLY TWO MONTHS AWAY. OP if not aspie or has shit grades this semester, is chicken little if at this point he takes anything as long as it gives out sponsorship? Most of the NYC Biglaw give H1B sponsorship. There is no need to choose one fork OP can have both here.

A summer externship with a federal judge isn't really even a fork. And you realize that working for a firm this summer doesn't commit OP to the same firm the following summer, right?

[Winter is Coming]

OCI is the most efficient way to find biglaw jobs. AND IT'S LITERALLY TWO MONTHS AWAY. OP if not aspie or has shit grades this semester, is chicken little if at this point he takes anything as long as it gives out sponsorship? Most of the NYC Biglaw give H1B sponsorship. There is no need to choose one fork OP can have both here.

Wild.

[Anonymous User]

How is it possible that the firm can guarantee you that they will sponsor you for H1B when you are just a 1L? They may decide you are not a good fit after you start working for them. Their hiring needs may change by the time you reach 3L spring. The chances of winning the H1B lottery vary dramatically over the years. H1B may not even exist then if Trump wins.

[Anonymous User]

Current clerk who was in charge of intern hiring for the summer. Our chambers would be mildly annoyed but would understand and definitely would not contact your law school.